Marcelo Bielsa

[The Subhuman]

I show appreciation for Bielsa because I have a realistic view of how strong the sqaud is. I am under no illusion that a simple tweak in tactics here or there and we don't get battered if the likes of a City, Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool play well. I don't disregard teams by saying it's only Watford, Brentford, Burnley etc, they are all decent sides who have some good players. I appreciate the efforts given by our players, which is why despite the scoreline at City I had pride in them still giving their all at 7-0 down - it would have been easy to have simply rolled over and made an embarrassing scoreline even worse. I appreicate Bielsa and the players for playing some brilliant football at times, some of the best football ever played by Leeds United teams.

Sadly some fans think we are much better than we are because we overachieved last season. A bit like how becuase Wilko did so well initially he was expected to keep doing it. Bielsa is a victim of his success last season as are the players. Now they are a victim of the fans.

Where we disagree is quality of player, we're both Leeds positive and very pro manager but I do think there's a lot of quality in the squad. Dallas was one of the prems most versatile players last season playing at prem level in 5/6 different positions. Ayling was on the cusp of an England call up, Paddy did get an England call up. Harrison is a quality left winger when on form. In fact most of the squad are premiership quality. Phillips, Raph, Llorente also, then Struijk has to be one of the best young players in the division at any position. Meslier must be the best young keeper in the division.. We do have a deep first team squad to boot

Now if you ask if they're big 4 quality that's a different argument. The answer there would be no in general but we can compete with any team outside that top 4 right now..

[BobHirst]

I show appreciation for Bielsa because I have a realistic view of how strong the sqaud is. I am under no illusion that a simple tweak in tactics here or there and we don't get battered if the likes of a City, Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool play well. I don't disregard teams by saying it's only Watford, Brentford, Burnley etc, they are all decent sides who have some good players. I appreciate the efforts given by our players, which is why despite the scoreline at City I had pride in them still giving their all at 7-0 down - it would have been easy to have simply rolled over and made an embarrassing scoreline even worse. I appreicate Bielsa and the players for playing some brilliant football at times, some of the best football ever played by Leeds United teams.

Sadly some fans think we are much better than we are because we overachieved last season. A bit like how becuase Wilko did so well initially he was expected to keep doing it. Bielsa is a victim of his success last season as are the players. Now they are a victim of the fans.

I think we all appreciate how far Bielsa has brought us. Not so much this season but in the prior seasons under Bielsa we have played some wonderful football and it has truly been a joy to watch.
This season we have had very few games where we have played like that. There are several reasons for this. We have had a shocking amount of injuries and we don't have a big enough squad of quality players to compensate for this.
We essentially play the same way every game. Our opponents know this and come fully prepared to play us. Even City and Liverpool adjust their systems when they play against certain opponents.
We didn't strengthen the team during the off season when most people realized that we needed a good left back (Firpo is currently not looking like the solution), at least one influential central midfielder and perhaps a striker who Bielsa would actually play, either with Bamford, instead of Bamford or as a huge impact off the bench.
I'm not sure any of the other teams in the bottom half of the table would have been able to handle City the way that they played on Tuesday but I think our tactics made it easier for them.
It's a real downer to lose by that much (can't wait for Liverpool!) but realistically I don't expect us to beat the top teams. The worry for me is that unless we start to play better we are relying on there being 3 teams worse that us. We have to beat Burnley, Newcastle, Norwich, Watford and hope that none of them start to win a few games.

[weasel]

Where we disagree is quality of player, we're both Leeds positive and very pro manager but I do think there's a lot of quality in the squad. Dallas was one of the prems most versatile players last season playing at prem level in 5/6 different positions. Ayling was on the cusp of an England call up, Paddy did get an England call up. Harrison is a quality left winger when on form. In fact most of the squad are premiership quality. Phillips, Raph, Llorente also, then Struijk has to be one of the best young players in the division at any position. Meslier must be the best young keeper in the division.. We do have a deep first team squad to boot

Now if you ask if they're big 4 quality that's a different argument. The answer there would be no in general but we can compete with any team outside that top 4 right now..

To be honest I would agree with you to a large degree. Our players in form are premier league standard they have proved it. Not top 4, the majorrity not top 6 but decent when playing to the best of their ability. But the key is them playing to the best of their ability and us having the key players avaialble. Bielsa has largely been responsible for them playing way above the standard they seemed to have accepted for themselves. However the players had to want it to which is why I have more affection for this squad than for players we have had previosuly who didn't give everything.

Form/confidence is a huge thing too. Like you say Harrison on his day is superb. He has been far more inconsistent this season than last. Ayling for me has improved immeasurably and the sooner we get him back to playing right wing back the better. Dallas continues to show he belongs at this level no matter where he plays. I would disagree in terms of the quality in depth. I do think we have some quality but it is probably more potential than proven.

[The Subhuman]

Nothing wrong with potential and you should know very quickly if they're gonna be good enough. Those that have been promoted, Gelhardt, Struijk, Cresswell, Summerville, Shackleton and Drameh all look quality already, and I think that bodes well for the likes of Greenwood, McKinstry and McCarron (currently undergoing a position change)

[CHAPELALLMAN]

They choose to get upset and then chuck the dummy out of the pram, if it doesn't align with their particular view. All very odd tbh, if it invokes such feelings then there's plent of other forums to access.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Me too.
Exactly what did Smudge do to generate so much animosity?
Did he post stuff (that got deleted) that the rest of us didn't get to see?
I honestly find some of our posters far more annoying and offensive with their attitudes than anything Smudge ever posted.

On the subject of being too negative or conversely being too positive can't people accept that other people see things differently. You don't have to agree with other people but at the same time you can respectfully disagree. They are not automatically a dick or an idiot if they have a different view of things.
Cjay remains the poster boy for someone who eloquently states his views and does not resort to name calling or anger with those who disagree with him.

It's called the male ego Bob.

Psychologists know that men tend to harness their ego identity to their point of view, whereas women on the whole are able to separate the two. That's why on the whole women are more able to debate things with other women without resorting to anger, shouting or punch ups. So men typically tend to feel that their whole ego identity is under threat if another man has a differing point of view. Through a brain scan you would probably see a ' fight and flight ' part of the brain light up when men start bickering over a different point of view - all very primal caveman type stuff, but we are at heart still mentally cavemen. Look at all the fighting and conflict in the world caused by men if you don't believe me. We are still primitive creatures deep down.

There was a programme on tv just the other day showing David Badiell having a brain scan when adverse Twitter comments from his account were being read out to him - the flght and flight part of his brain lit up when this happened. Dopamine was released in his brain when positive comments were read out.

[Cjay]

I show appreciation for Bielsa because I have a realistic view of how strong the sqaud is. I am under no illusion that a simple tweak in tactics here or there is all it would take for us not to get battered if the likes of a City, Man U, Chelsea or Liverpool play well. I don't disregard teams by saying it's only Watford, Brentford, Burnley etc, they are all decent sides who have some good players. I appreciate the efforts given by our players, which is why despite the scoreline at City I had pride in them still giving their all at 7-0 down - it would have been easy to have simply rolled over and made an embarrassing scoreline even worse. I appreicate Bielsa and the players for playing some brilliant football at times, some of the best football ever played by Leeds United teams.

Sadly some fans think we are much better than we are because we overachieved last season. A bit like how becuase Wilko did so well initially he was expected to keep doing it. Bielsa is a victim of his success last season as are the players. Now they are a victim of the fans.

Maybe that run towards the end of last season was a bit of a curse.

It gave the fans but also the club a bit of a false sense of confidence?

We then had Kinnear talking about 2 years of transfers (which never gets said, football doesnt stand still for a year its a ludicrous statement).

Fans saw last season and expected to push on, i dont think that's a ludicrous notion at all? But potentially because of the way we finished last season and where we finished it was a push on from a false position?

Were we a top 10 team on paper? Absolutely not, it was a great achievement but it created maybe an unrealistic expectation from fans but also a false confidence from Bielsa and the board.

For me it works both ways.

Maybe us as fans got a bit carried away but id say so did the board and Bielsa.

Maybe we went as fans to far one way, aim for the stars, top 6 here we come etc.

But the board went to far the other. Top 10 finish in our first season we will be ok next season, minimal squad changes, the squad will maintain levels etc.

So because of that run late last season 2 totally conflicting ideas developed between fans and board/coach and unfortunately both of us are experiencing a nightmare that maybe both of us didnt see coming?

It isnt acceptable to drop from 9th to this in 6-7months lets be honest.

But maybe we as fans wouldn't be getting so upset if we had finished in a more realistic position for our squad last season which was probably 13-16th at best id say.

[weasel]

Indeed. Last season for the majority of the time we were around 11th to 15th. Really until the last few weeks still not fully secure against the threat of relegation if we had a bad run of results.

Like you say I think both the fans and board got a bit carried away. That said without the injuries I do feel we'd be comfortable in mid table. Plus some players haven't done as well as last season.

[VinnysTattoo]

Throughout most of last season we pretty much maintained a 0 goal difference. That generally means mid table if you look at the spread of goal differences through the league. We were a mid table team. It’s frightening if the board thought we were any different.
Our goal difference at the moment is the second or third worst and is the major worry for me.
Teams with a 0 or plus goal difference don’t tend to get relegated.

[The Subhuman]

Burnley, Palace and Southampton stayed up with minus 20 plus last season, Newcastle and Wolves mid table on -16
Villa and Newcastle again with -20 plus the season before, couple of others around -16

We're -14 on three games this season and -1 on the other 14 so it's not all bad.

We've already played Man City, Chelsea and Manure away and we're about to go to Anfield so by Christmas we will have no big 4 grounds to travel to

[1964white]

Burnley, Palace and Southampton stayed up with minus 20 plus last season, Newcastle and Wolves mid table on -16
Villa and Newcastle again with -20 plus the season before, couple of others around -16

We're -14 on three games this season and -1 on the other 14 so it's not all bad.

We've already played Man City, Chelsea and Manure away and we're about to go to Anfield so by Christmas we will have no big 4 grounds to travel to

That's a relief & a good point, Faaip.

[Orange Box]

This topic is now a dead parrot, MB has said he is staying and not in this lifetime will Radz go against him.

[White Riot]

This topic is now a dead parrot, MB has said he is staying and not in this lifetime will Radz go against him.

It is deceased

[The Subhuman]

Not sure why it was a topic to start with

[1964white]

Not sure why it was a topic to start with

I suppose it's created eight pages of discussion.

[velo]

I suppose it's created eight pages of discussion.

[SG90]

I know it won't be popular on here, but have we reached the time to say adios? Another limp surrender we've brought on ourselves from poor coaching. It was obvious we couldn't afford be so open again, but we've seen no change up whatsoever and let's not pretend we won't get another humiliation at Anfield either playing the exact same way with the same players.

I don't want to hear excuses about injuries either, as this is a system problem. All we've done is hand Burnley a massive advantage. And the injuries are coming from overtraining and tired bodies. Some of us said this would happen as we needed the players, but the club and Bielsa ignored it and we were called negative. The poor squad is also his fault, as he doesn't want to move on from the Championship squad.

Yes he's a hero for getting us up and keeping us there, but how long can we keep going on about that? Villa and Brighton both made difficult decisions. It's sad it's come to this, but the way we're going, we're going down and without a fight.

The problem is who can get a result out of this shower? I don't wanna hear any dinosaurs like Fat Sam, Pulis, Pardew, Bruce etc. But we need to go back to basics and start from the back. I would look at Paulo Fonseca for the rest of the season or dare I say it, even Nuno as he favours defensive football. That's what we need right now. Shithousing a few 1-0s.

[velo]

Is it MB or the players fault ?

[Stan]

All credit to MB for what he did in year 1 and 2 but unfortunately he like the team are clearly not PL level. If we want to even have a shot of staying in this league, then immediate change in both departments is a must as we approach Jan.

[Scoobychief]

It seems to me that bielsa doesn't have a voice when it comes to transfers. It's orta the otter pulling the strings. We'll that may have been his nail in the coffin.