The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Monday 15th April) Leeds are falling apart - again

[weasel]

Good god that Weasel is a politician, I’m sure of it.
He could argue the sky is green & the grass is blue.
In fact I’m already starting to doubt whether that might be true. And he hasn’t even put his case forward yet

If someone has their head up their ar$e then the colour of the grass and the sky are irrelevant.

Who is to say though that what my optical senses see as blue is the same colour that your optical senses see as blue? What I see as blue may be totally different to what you see as blue but we would never know because if I wrote in what I saw as blue, even if my blue turned out to be how you see green, it wouldn't make any difference because we would both be seeing it as blue as that is what our brains tell us it is.

Planet Earth is blue and there's nothing I can do

[The Subhuman]

We play 4 forwards, 2 wing backs, 3 central defensive players, a goalkeeper and just the one true central mid ... .it's not surprising we lose the central midfield area or why we can't find those passes transitioning defence to offence... especially as we don't have a number 9 that can hold the ball up.

Gnonto is the key to the final three games for me, he's premier and international class and it shows... I've said before he can play right across the front four including striker... Geo and Cry are both game changers too but maybe both on the pitch at the same time is a luxury we're paying for in central midfield

[The Subhuman]

I am happy to accept that taking Gruev and Gnonto off was a fitness or injury prevention thing. Both have just come back form injury and they have those things monitoring the players and showing when they are going into danger zones. I would think taking Gnonto off falls into that category as I am sure I read something along the lines of the last 15 minutes is the most dangerous time for 'explosive' players to get injuries. Like you say he looked threatening but is it worth risking him getting a muscle injury? Gruev if it wasn't for that reason then I have no problem if it was a tactical switch to increase our attacking options. I have said in the past, when Farke made similar switches, that it made little sense as it was like having loads of players on to score but no one to create but it is a gamble that could easily pay off simply by having an extra body in the box when the ball falls loose.

You do realize any player can get a muscle injury at anytime... and especially if you dead on your legs, Gray probably was at the biggest risk of injury, still is. Paddy has had a number this season alone, why did we risk bringing him on coldish? I don't think Gnonto indicated his hammy was tightening up... Gruev ditto. It's the vinegar strokes of the season, time for it all to go on the line and push on through..

Didn't Rodon play with a bloodied and bandage head earlier in the season? Or am I thinking of someone else. He didn't come off an I'd suggest possible concussion way more serious then an outside chance of a hamstring injury

[weasel]

Farke has completely sidelined Cresswell, what makes you think he'd suddenly change his mind next season?


My point was based on us not being able to get Rodon again next year if we diddn't go up. So we'd be losing a defender who has had a great season but if we replaced him with a defender not as good defensively, ala Cresswell but could easily be a signing, but that scores a few goals then the net loss isn't as great.

You say Summerville could put in more crosses? To who?

Often I have seen Bamford in the box but Summerville ignores him, some may say a sensible decision but strikers need crosses. It was interesting to see how many assists Firpo got from the left side by putting crosses in. Summerville has had a great year but for me I'd like to see him mix it up more and put some crosses in.

We have no midfield runners and our right back is told not to push on much whilst Gnonto on the right is forced to come narrow to get involved same as Buendia.

Indeed that is why I say Farke being able to bring in players that fit his system might make it work better. You have said many times we don't have a Buendia type and maybe by selling Rutter we aren't forced to try to find a role that suits him and it means we get a Buendia type player and that also then brings out the best in Piroe, so suddenly we strengthen two areas despite losing a big talent. We maybe end up having two players that are top end championship players and get us promoted rather than having 1 player that has potential to be world class. So short term better side that is more suited to getting promoted.

But all of it is a moot point, Summerville doesn't cross the ball for the same reason we never go long to spread the play or over the top to get in behind, Farke doesn't want to.

We know this because both his Norwich sides in this league ranked last for long passes and bottom 5 or 6 for crosses.

That is an interesting stat but for me I think Summerville would rather shoot than cross anyway. Crosses are low percentage, I'm sure City don't put many in, but equally there are times when you can pass it into the box, rather than a hopeful cross.

Same as creating chances from those things.

The players follow his instructions and the evidence is in how similar we rank compared to his Norwich side.

Same as they focus down 1 side and ignore the other, it's his instructions.

All the things you suggest about better positions and what not would require Farke to change HIS tactics.

This is his style.

Keep the ball, don't go long and don't cross much.

His Norwich side were exactly the same.

And as said before they needed overperforming on a vast scale from Pukki, Buendia and Krul to make it work.

And again it sort of proves my point. In Rutter we have someone well below the expected goals etc. A lesser player, such as the unknown at the time Buendia or freebie Pukki can do a better job in this division. Neither has the potential that Rutter has but both were fantastic at this level and played key roles. Similar with Krul in that a steady keeper may be better short term than Messlier.

I think DF has done a good job as a man manager, as a tactical coach I think he is a weakness and I'd go as far to say a hindering factor for us this season.

I'm still on the fortunate perfect storm of good recruitment from Webber and seasons of your life form from Pukki and Co made him look better than he is.

The tactics are fine for this division. We create plenty of chances, we generally defend pretty decently, I would say defensviely we have shown an evolvement from Farke's Norwich side. Put Pukki in this side and we have won the league.

[weasel]

You do realize any player can get a muscle injury at anytime... and especially if you dead on your legs, Gray probably was at the biggest risk of injury, still is. Paddy has had a number this season alone, why did we risk bringing him on coldish? I don't think Gnonto indicated his hammy was tightening up... Gruev ditto. It's the vinegar strokes of the season, time for it all to go on the line and push on through..

Didn't Rodon play with a bloodied and bandage head earlier in the season? Or am I thinking of someone else. He didn't come off an I'd suggest possible concussion way more serious then an outside chance of a hamstring injury

You can get a muscle injury any time but they have statistically proved times in a match where you are far more at risk. Sort of like saying you can hit a bullseye with any dart but you have more chance of hitting the bullseye if you are aiming at it. They monitor all that stuff, see how much he has run etc etc and have to make the assessment, It is about trying to prevent an injury happenign rather than waiting for a player to say, "Oh my hammy is tightening up boss."

It may have been a risk worth taking but like you have said in another post Gnonto could be the key man for us in the last 3 matches and he couldn't be the key man if he is unable to play.

It was Rodon who had the bandaged head. I would have presumed they did concussion tests on him when he got the knock as they have to do it and if there had been any risk they would have brought him off.

[DDB220]

Summerville doesn’t put many crosses in because he plays inverted. He is not great with his left foot from what I have seen. The point of Firpo is to put the crosses in on the overlap, Summerville creates that space by drawing the defenders. He does cross occasionally when he cuts in onto his right foot but if the option is there he will always go for the shot. Which I do not have a problem with.

[Phild]

Judging by our corners not sure putting more crosses in is the answer
I know Summerville has come in for some criticism of late but at least when he gets the ball he injects must needed pace that no one else offers
Would love to see Gray turn in a couple of his Chelsea performance
Anthony before James for me in that wide position
Much more polished and composed

[The Subhuman]

You can get a muscle injury any time but they have statistically proved times in a match where you are far more at risk. Sort of like saying you can hit a bullseye with any dart but you have more chance of hitting the bullseye if you are aiming at it. They monitor all that stuff, see how much he has run etc etc and have to make the assessment, It is about trying to prevent an injury happenign rather than waiting for a player to say, "Oh my hammy is tightening up boss."

It may have been a risk worth taking but like you have said in another post Gnonto could be the key man for us in the last 3 matches and he couldn't be the key man if he is unable to play.

It was Rodon who had the bandaged head. I would have presumed they did concussion tests on him when he got the knock as they have to do it and if there had been any risk they would have brought him off.

Not really..

[1964white]

Judging by our corners not sure putting more crosses in is the answer
I know Summerville has come in for some criticism of late but at least when he gets the ball he injects must needed pace that no one else offers
Would love to see Gray turn in a couple of his Chelsea performance
Anthony before James for me in that wide position
Much more polished and composed

Difficult to knock Dan James - 13 goals, 8 assists, and tracks back to help his full-back.

Anthony maybe more polished & composed, however I doubt he would produce as much as our Welsh quickie.

[Phild]

I know he has the goals but frustrates me like hell with his wastefulness most of the time

[The Subhuman]

Difficult to knock Dan James - 13 goals, 8 assists, and tracks back to help his full-back.

Anthony maybe more polished & composed, however I doubt he would produce as much as our Welsh quickie.

He's been very good but he has a ceiling. Gnonto is the better player by a distance and he's playing well atm

-------------------------------- Meslier--------------------------

---------------Rodon-------------------------Ampadu--------

Roberts --------------------Gruev---------------------Firpo

---------------Kamara --------------------Gray---------------

Rutter--------------------Gnonto--------------Summerville

Would have been worth trying but too late now, you could swap Geo for Gnonto or have Piroe playing the 9 and Geo drop to the bench. Bit I like the above, Gnonto is a natural finisher with a striker instincts....

[Sean_Nile]

And as I said, 1 win in 11 when we played them.

Your table includes the game vs us they are bottom 3 even now over the last 20 games as well.

Before that they were awful same as Sunderland as I said

Screenshot_20240415_200213_Samsung Internet.jpg

Well you take 11 games to prove your point and I take 4 to prove mine.
I think that just proves Kenny right... stats can be twisted to reinforce your point of view.

Looking at the last 4 games Boro are 2nd on the form table they are not to be seen on your table, so I assume they are somewhere near the top. Since they are an upcoming game should we be worried they are in good form... drawing with Ipswich... or will the absence of Ayling and Greenwood make a difference?

[Cjay]

Well you take 11 games to prove your point and I take 4 to prove mine.
I think that just proves Kenny right... stats can be twisted to reinforce your point of view.

Looking at the last 4 games Boro are 2nd on the form table they are not to be seen on your table, so I assume they are somewhere near the top. Since they are an upcoming game should we be worried they are in good form... drawing with Ipswich... or will the absence of Ayling and Greenwood make a difference?

I'm afraid it is you choosing a very small sample size to manipulate the stats my friend.

Your 4 games is entirely changed by them beating us, in the previous 4 games they were 21st in the form table.

Boro are a different prospect because they are actually in good form (4th in the form table over the last 12).

Certainly not a side to be taken lightly

[Cjay]

Often I have seen Bamford in the box but Summerville ignores him, some may say a sensible decision but strikers need crosses. It was interesting to see how many assists Firpo got from the left side by putting crosses in. Summerville has had a great year but for me I'd like to see him mix it up more and put some crosses in.


Piroe has done the same, but again the tactics are not to cross same as they are not to play long risky passes.




Indeed that is why I say Farke being able to bring in players that fit his system might make it work better. You have said many times we don't have a Buendia type and maybe by selling Rutter we aren't forced to try to find a role that suits him and it means we get a Buendia type player and that also then brings out the best in Piroe, so suddenly we strengthen two areas despite losing a big talent. We maybe end up having two players that are top end championship players and get us promoted rather than having 1 player that has potential to be world class. So short term better side that is more suited to getting promoted.


Issue is that is a lot of faith to put in a system that has worked once with one group of players, no guarantee it works with another.



That is an interesting stat but for me I think Summerville would rather shoot than cross anyway. Crosses are low percentage, I'm sure City don't put many in, but equally there are times when you can pass it into the box, rather than a hopeful cross.

City rank 2nd for through balls and crosses this season and also average more long balls than us.

Liverpool rank 3rd for long balls, 1st for through balls and crosses.

The style DF has adopted bares no resemblance to any top team.

Frankly I've never known a side use one side of the pitch as much as we do, it's bizarre.



And again it sort of proves my point. In Rutter we have someone well below the expected goals etc. A lesser player, such as the unknown at the time Buendia or freebie Pukki can do a better job in this division. Neither has the potential that Rutter has but both were fantastic at this level and played key roles. Similar with Krul in that a steady keeper may be better short term than Messlier.

Again though a lot of maybe and perhaps here based on 1 crop of signings who are likely to be less talented than those they replace.



The tactics are fine for this division. We create plenty of chances, we generally defend pretty decently, I would say defensviely we have shown an evolvement from Farke's Norwich side. Put Pukki in this side and we have won the league.

And how much of that is down to having better players than basically every team we play? That's the issue.

Defensively I would agree but is that because we are so safety first or because we are actually better Defensively?

I'd say in terms of team play and attacking play Farke has regressed as a coach.

His Norwich team played at a far quicker tempo from memory and used the whole of the pitch better.

[Jaydog]

They can learn, and one of the best things they can do is be adaptable. But in a lot of sports, managers, coaches, head coaches, have their way and will go down with that particular ship till it sinks to the bottom.... average managers take what they have and force them into their system, great managers build a system for what they have....

I think Corberan (my choice last summer over Farke and Vierra but was ruled out early) does this.. Football fans moan he plays a safe/bland style for WBA but that's what he has to work with, ditto Hudds I think it was. WBA are a mid table squad that he has comfortable in 5th. My championship manager of the year tbh

Maybe a play off final v Corberan then.

[The Subhuman]

Maybe a play off final v Corberan then.

We would have the better team... but if it is the playoffs then it could be Southampton third us fourth, or vice versa. Then WBA 5th Norwich 6th or vice versa. Still think we should get auto though, hopefully we've gone as low as we can form wise and we finish strongly

[JoeDenver]

I agree Sid, the subs were quite baffling, Roberts had done only good, and yes Jimmy was kept v quiet, quite amazing Piroe was left on tbh. To me the subs smacked of this tech thingymebob they use.

If this is what AI has in store for us, then T2: Judgement Day really will be the outcome…

[JoeDenver]

They can learn, and one of the best things they can do is be adaptable. But in a lot of sports, managers, coaches, head coaches, have their way and will go down with that particular ship till it sinks to the bottom.... average managers take what they have and force them into their system, great managers build a system for what they have....

I think Corberan (my choice last summer over Farke and Vierra but was ruled out early) does this.. Football fans moan he plays a safe/bland style for WBA but that's what he has to work with, ditto Hudds I think it was. WBA are a mid table squad that he has comfortable in 5th. My championship manager of the year tbh

I like Corboran a lot, but think the job Wagner has done at Norwich is worthy of consideration. Team is playing a lovely style at a high tempo. One could dream what he might accomplish with this squad…

[Sean_Nile]

I'm afraid it is you choosing a very small sample size to manipulate the stats my friend.

Your 4 games is entirely changed by them beating us, in the previous 4 games they were 21st in the form table.

Boro are a different prospect because they are actually in good form (4th in the form table over the last 12).

Certainly not a side to be taken lightly

Regardless the inference you are making is that we got beat by a, woeful team. I prefer to look at trends whether the form is on the rise or falling.

At 12 games we were in the top 6 and at 4 games we are no longer there. We are trending downwards the same as Lester.

Whereas Boro and Southampton two teams we still have to play are on an upward trend when it comes to their form... Which is borne out by those tables.

That being said being near the top of the table does not preclude you suffering defeat as evidenced by the recent Liverpool result.

Form is only an indicator to predict an outcome. In horse racing you are given a small sample of results the last 5 races and if you see 11111 that tells you the horse has been on good form, but that gives no assurance it will win the next time. So many other factors enter into play, how far did the horse travel to the event, is the trainer having success with his other horses, what jockey has been booked, what are the ground conditions, is the horse wearing blinkers for the first time, has it had a wind op, has it dropped or moved up in grade... So many intangibles.

And so it is with football if we could predict what is going to happen we'd all be millionaires this time next year.

[Kennyb41]

I see our resident child is on his orangebox again, tut tut, wildly finding things in his tiny to suit his narrative.

Choosing to keep bangin on abart Pukki, Buendia etc whilst not realising EVERY single team in the land has it's best players.

How long does it take a manager to get his team ticking these days huh ? 5 games ? Because that's what DF did - 5 GAMES!

Look how he managed his players thru the tough Xmas period, thru the tough travelling games we had, how did this shite manager manage to reel in not just 1 but 2 teams that were waltzing this division by 17pts, htf did he do that??

We shouldn't even be going into these last 3 games with a sniff of a chance, but we are, because of the good work he's done throughout the season, I'm not a child that can't see the bigger picture, i don't pluck negatives to suit my narrative, i don't exaggerate and lie to suit my narrative.

This guy has earned respect, and he definitely gets mine.