Daniel Farke

[Cjay]

Seems to be the man so think he can have his own thread now.

Double promotion winning former Norwich manager.

Double promotion winner in his time in the German lower leagues.

Was once considered the latest future star manager from that Jurgen Klopp, Ralph Rangnick high intensity attacking German style.

With slick passing moves and fast attacking football drawing praise and combined with an intense press he was considered an exciting coach who could go on to better things.

The football at Norwich was very exciting at times and he stands as one of the most successful Championship coaches ever.

However his stock has fallen considerably after multiple top level failures.

His tactics have been hugely criticised both at Norwich and Borussia Mönchengladbach for how easy they are to score against with being caught in transition a common problem.

And defensively the numbers paint a picture of a manager whose sides concede a lot of goals and should have conceded more.

There is a thought process that his Norwich side relied more on individual quality in key moments than Farke and his tactics hence why at the top level when the players couldn't make the difference he struggled badly.

So what we thinking?

[Scoobychief]

Let's hope he will be the one in charge of transfer incoming, and not a clown

[weasel]

I think a lot of the criticism is unwarranted. Norwich in the top flight didn't invest and with the best will in the world even the best tactics can only take you so far if you are a vastly inferior side. Reliant on certain individual players - well most teams are. Man U won the title the year they pipped Newcastle largely because they won 1-0 against Newcastle. Schmeichel made a string of saves and Cantona provided a clinical finish. Man U were outplayed but their star men stood up. At the top level star players are huge. Liverpool are reliant on the Salah being clinical just like Spurs are with Kane & Son. Switch Bamford for Kane and our goals scored would be much better compared with the xg and Tottenham's would suffer. That's why the best strikers cost big money or why the best keepers cost big money. ER produced the stat the other day that last season Messlier conceded 14 more goals than the xg suggested he should. That's a huge defecit and he really should have been replaced sooner. However we were ruled by people wanting to make a profit and as such Messlier played until the point where it became apparent to the moneymen that he was going to cost us far more if we keptplaying him and went down than if we put someone else in and stayed up. So critising Farke for picking the players who perform well doesn't really seem fair.

So yes there may be doubts over his ability at the top level but let's worry about that after he has got us there.

[Carrick Dave]

I think a lot of the criticism is unwarranted. Norwich in the top flight didn't invest and with the best will in the world even the best tactics can only take you so far if you are a vastly inferior side. Reliant on certain individual players - well most teams are. Man U won the title the year they pipped Newcastle largely because they won 1-0 against Newcastle. Schmeichel made a string of saves and Cantona provided a clinical finish. Man U were outplayed but their star men stood up. At the top level star players are huge. Liverpool are reliant on the Salah being clinical just like Spurs are with Kane & Son. Switch Bamford for Kane and our goals scored would be much better compared with the xg and Tottenham's would suffer. That's why the best strikers cost big money or why the best keepers cost big money. ER produced the stat the other day that last season Messlier conceded 14 more goals than the xg suggested he should. That's a huge defecit and he really should have been replaced sooner. However we were ruled by people wanting to make a profit and as such Messlier played until the point where it became apparent to the moneymen that he was going to cost us far more if we keptplaying him and went down than if we put someone else in and stayed up. So critising Farke for picking the players who perform well doesn't really seem fair.

So yes there may be doubts over his ability at the top level but let's worry about that after he has got us there.

That's the most salient point - we might not need to worry about how he'll do in the PL for a year or two, and if he gets Phillips in to partner Charlie we might have a the beginnings of a platform at the back to build on (assuming they can play l/r between them).

Cresswell, Phillips, Cooper, Struijk, Drameh, Hjelde, Ayling, Kristensen - you'd think that whoever's left when the music stops would have enough between them to make us less vulnerable in transition in the Championship.

[malcolmw]

Seems to be the man so think he can have his own thread now.

Double promotion winning former Norwich manager.

Double promotion winner in his time in the German lower leagues.

Was once considered the latest future star manager from that Jurgen Klopp, Ralph Rangnick high intensity attacking German style.

With slick passing moves and fast attacking football drawing praise and combined with an intense press he was considered an exciting coach who could go on to better things.

The football at Norwich was very exciting at times and he stands as one of the most successful Championship coaches ever.

However his stock has fallen considerably after multiple top level failures.

His tactics have been hugely criticised both at Norwich and Borussia Mönchengladbach for how easy they are to score against with being caught in transition a common problem.

And defensively the numbers paint a picture of a manager whose sides concede a lot of goals and should have conceded more.

There is a thought process that his Norwich side relied more on individual quality in key moments than Farke and his tactics hence why at the top level when the players couldn't make the difference he struggled badly.

So what we thinking?

Haven't we been around this mulberry bush before?
Why are we so certain now he's going to be the man?
Just wondering...

[malcolmw]

I must say I am learning from all this.

A month or so ago I thought FARKE was what a seagull said after flying into a pole.

[Irish Ian]

Haven't we been around this mulberry bush before?
Why are we so certain now he's going to be the man?
Just wondering...

The only certainty is that we will not allow him the time to do anything

[hector]

The only certainty is that we will not allow him the time to do anything

Are you certain about that??

[Chilli D]

Whoever it is, they just need to get on and appoint someone. All this uncertainty is ridiculous.

[lufc1304]

Let's give the guy a chance, if it is him. Cjay and others' doubts around his ability at the top level are not unwarranted, but we can worry about that if/when the time comes. As a Championship level manager, he's at the high end, so why don't we focus on that and hope/believe he can do the same with us (though not overnight, all you knee-jerkers!!). We were never getting the sexy managers we all would have liked; for me, Farke is the best of what was realistic.

[VinnysTattoo]

We are a Championship side with a cloud over us regarding ownership and a fan base whose expectations, for the main, are at a bar higher than reality.

In other words, Farke is about the level we can expect right now.

It could have been a lot worse with the likes of Gerard and Lampard milling around looking for their next car crash.

All I’ll say to Farke is get a bloody striker. If it pans out that his football relies on his team scoring a lot of goals to counter the goals we are going to concede it will be ( continued ) madness to rely on Bamford.

[Cjay]

I think a lot of the criticism is unwarranted. Norwich in the top flight didn't invest and with the best will in the world even the best tactics can only take you so far if you are a vastly inferior side. Reliant on certain individual players - well most teams are. Man U won the title the year they pipped Newcastle largely because they won 1-0 against Newcastle. Schmeichel made a string of saves and Cantona provided a clinical finish. Man U were outplayed but their star men stood up. At the top level star players are huge. Liverpool are reliant on the Salah being clinical just like Spurs are with Kane & Son. Switch Bamford for Kane and our goals scored would be much better compared with the xg and Tottenham's would suffer. That's why the best strikers cost big money or why the best keepers cost big money. ER produced the stat the other day that last season Messlier conceded 14 more goals than the xg suggested he should. That's a huge defecit and he really should have been replaced sooner. However we were ruled by people wanting to make a profit and as such Messlier played until the point where it became apparent to the moneymen that he was going to cost us far more if we keptplaying him and went down than if we put someone else in and stayed up. So critising Farke for picking the players who perform well doesn't really seem fair.

So yes there may be doubts over his ability at the top level but let's worry about that after he has got us there.

I have a lot of concerns about Farke not going to pretend otherwise .

I'm still far from convinced he wasn't a beneficiary of circumstance.

Buendia being the primary example (his record without him according to Norwich fans was awful apparently) Less than 1ppg.

His 1st season at Norwich was very poor, a goal difference 27 worse than the season before and 10 less points.

Concerned by his xG stuff, concerned he is basically a 1 hit wonder and concerned he has never had an instant impact anywhere, the opposite in fact, he's made both teams worse.

Last time I was this concerned by an appointment it was Marsch, time before that it was Heckingbottom.

Both times initial concerns were proven right unfortunately

Hopefully Farke isn't the 3rd.

Just not convinced.

I realise we are where we are etc and we just need to move on and he isnt without positives.

But so many nagging doubts.

Lack of investment or not losing 15 games in a row is appallingly and almost unheard of. No manager is ever blameless for that.

[weasel]

I have a lot of concerns about Farke not going to pretend otherwise .

I'm still far from convinced he wasn't a beneficiary of circumstance.

Buendia being the primary example (his record without him according to Norwich fans was awful apparently) Less than 1ppg.

His 1st season at Norwich was very poor, a goal difference 27 worse than the season before and 10 less points.

Concerned by his xG stuff, concerned he is basically a 1 hit wonder and concerned he has never had an instant impact anywhere, the opposite in fact, he's made both teams worse.

Last time I was this concerned by an appointment it was Marsch, time before that it was Heckingbottom.

Both times initial concerns were proven right unfortunately

Hopefully Farke isn't the 3rd.

Just not convinced.

I realise we are where we are etc and we just need to move on and he isnt without positives.

But so many nagging doubts.

Lack of investment or not losing 15 games in a row is appallingly and almost unheard of. No manager is ever blameless for that.

The Buendia stats are interesting but I would think that most teams do a lot worse when they have a key player out. We did when KP was absent, Liverpool with Van Dijk etc. The troulbe is that you have a system that is built around getting the best out of key players and the replacements, especially when coming in for the odd game here and there, are unlikely to be anywhere near as good and it has a huge knock on effect for the team. Apart from going down the route of having 2 quality players of similar importance for every position it is a tricky siuation to resolve. Equally though if the team did sinificantly better when a certain player was missing then bigger questions should be raised as to why the manager keeps picking him.

The fact that Buendia was sold and not replaced would also go a long way to then explaining a large reason why Norwich went on a 15 match losing run. I would suggest that getting promoted and then selling your best player isn't the best idea in the world and lends even more creedence to suggestions that Farke wasn't given much of a chance to keep Norwich up.

If it makes you feel a little bit more optimistic Cjay I had the exact same concerns as you about Marsch and Heckingbottom. I don't have those at all with Farke. That isn't me saying he is guaranteed to be successful just that I think he could do well -how well that is and how far he can take us who knows. It may be a short term solution to a long term problem.

The concern you raise about him struggling initially at clubs would be my ciggest concern. THhis suggests that he has his way of playing and goes with it even if the players aren't suitable or can't get to grips with it quickly. Given that Norwich had a remarkable success in his second season there though it would suggest that his tactics are good once the players get used to them (or players more suited come in). That would be another strong reason for me to keep the likes of Cooper, Dallas and Ayling as they have the experience of Bielsa coming in and completely changing the tactics. They can then hopefully play an important role in helping the younger players understand what can be achieved if you believe in your manager. Most managers struggle initially if they come in and try to change the way a team plays. Fergie did at MU, Klopp at Liverpool, Pep at City, Arteta at Arsenal - they all started poorly but they all had confidence in their tactics and all were prepared to get rid of big name players who didn't buy into their ethos. Similar to us when getting rid of PJ you need to have a club where all the players buy into what you are trying to do.

So the key for me is our players buying into the tactics and giving it their all. If we can adapt quickly then I see no reason why we don't succeed, after all his tactics have led to 2 titles in this division. The tactics haven't worked and then failed (at this level) they have took time to work but then worked really, really, well.

[Cjay]

The Buendia stats are interesting but I would think that most teams do a lot worse when they have a key player out. We did when KP was absent, Liverpool with Van Dijk etc. The troulbe is that you have a system that is built around getting the best out of key players and the replacements, especially when coming in for the odd game here and there, are unlikely to be anywhere near as good and it has a huge knock on effect for the team. Apart from going down the route of having 2 quality players of similar importance for every position it is a tricky siuation to resolve. Equally though if the team did sinificantly better when a certain player was missing then bigger questions should be raised as to why the manager keeps picking him.

The fact that Buendia was sold and not replaced would also go a long way to then explaining a large reason why Norwich went on a 15 match losing run. I would suggest that getting promoted and then selling your best player isn't the best idea in the world and lends even more creedence to suggestions that Farke wasn't given much of a chance to keep Norwich up.

If it makes you feel a little bit more optimistic Cjay I had the exact same concerns as you about Marsch and Heckingbottom. I don't have those at all with Farke. That isn't me saying he is guaranteed to be successful just that I think he could do well -how well that is and how far he can take us who knows. It may be a short term solution to a long term problem.

The concern you raise about him struggling initially at clubs would be my ciggest concern. THhis suggests that he has his way of playing and goes with it even if the players aren't suitable or can't get to grips with it quickly. Given that Norwich had a remarkable success in his second season there though it would suggest that his tactics are good once the players get used to them (or players more suited come in). That would be another strong reason for me to keep the likes of Cooper, Dallas and Ayling as they have the experience of Bielsa coming in and completely changing the tactics. They can then hopefully play an important role in helping the younger players understand what can be achieved if you believe in your manager. Most managers struggle initially if they come in and try to change the way a team plays. Fergie did at MU, Klopp at Liverpool, Pep at City, Arteta at Arsenal - they all started poorly but they all had confidence in their tactics and all were prepared to get rid of big name players who didn't buy into their ethos. Similar to us when getting rid of PJ you need to have a club where all the players buy into what you are trying to do.

So the key for me is our players buying into the tactics and giving it their all. If we can adapt quickly then I see no reason why we don't succeed, after all his tactics have led to 2 titles in this division. The tactics haven't worked and then failed (at this level) they have took time to work but then worked really, really, well.

The 2 titles are what I'm clinging to really.

It's an achievement of sorts whatever factors you have so it's something.

I don't like the xG stuff, it concerns me.

Defensively especially.

Conceded 36 should have been 52
Conceded 57 should have been 46
Conceded 60 should have been 62

Borussia Munchengladback was the same, had the 10th best defence but xG had them 14th of 18.

If you take the xG that's 53 goals, that's a high amount, only 4 teams of 24 have got top 6 with that level of conceded last 4 seasons.

It's enough to suggest at the very least defensively there is a problem and without a Pukki or Buendia to knock in 15-20 more than you should or a Krul to keep out 15-20 more than you should then Farke isn't getting either of those titles and he wouldn't have his plusses and instead he's perhaps seen as more of a Corberan?

A solid but unspectacular mid table Championship manager.

It's not a regular thing the level of xG overachieving Farke had, Fulham, us Sheffield United, Wolves none of us had it to that degree.

There as positives with Farke but there are massive red flags. I know many don't like xG each to there own but a pattern is never a good thing.

However hopefully if we are ambitious in the transfer market, can keep some of our better players then it won't matter much.

Just having better players may be enough.

If it is and we play some nice stuff happy days then we can enjoy the season.

Would be nice after the last 2 years and his team did play some very nice stuff at times.

Do think transfers play a major part though

[weasel]

The xg does have its merits and flaws. I am presuming the season when they conceded 11 more than they should was the season in the prem. That would suggest that Farke had a keeper that was very decent at championship level but not so much at premier league level. So in many ways that would ease my fears as it wasn't like they had peak Schmeichel. Messlier I believe conceded 14 more than he should last year and to be honest even with the naked eye it was clear to see he wasn't a top class keeper. Put Messlier into the championship and maybe he'd perform better than xg as the strikers aren't as clinical, and maybe due to being less exposed he makes lessmistakes. So for me it isn't like we'd need a spectacularly good keeper. Here's an interesting stat Tim Krul had a save percentage of 72.4% when Norwich got promoted in 2018-2019 and Kiko Casilla had a save percentage of 72.3% in the season we got promoted. So considering the amount of criticism many Leeds fans gave to Kiko it is worth noting that he saved the same percentage as Krul. That stat would suggest that Krul had a decent seson rather than spectacular one when Norwich got promoted.

For me us getting a steady keeper would give us a great chance of success. Robert Green when he played for us had a save percentage of 74.4% so not hugely better than Krul or Casilla. We don't need to go out and get a young superstar just a run of the mill steady keeper.

Interesting stats regarding Messlier

2019-2020 save % 83.3%
2020-2021 save % 76.6%
2021-2022 save % 66.4%
2022-2023 save % 59.5%

Now that for me is a keeper regressing.

[Cjay]

It's his Championship record only worryingly, that's the concerning bit

His Premier league record xG wise just showed the problem in real stats.

They couldn't stop conceding (were pretty much on point for goals conceded vs xG). Both times one of the worst defences in Premier league history.

But they also couldn't create, they were bottom both seasons for xG for and xG against.

His tactics simply didn't work.

And without the individual advantage of the Championship he wasn't able to cope at all.

What it suggests is in the lower league when he had a Pukki or Buendia or Krul with that bit of class he was OK.

But take that away and he had no answer.

It's those numbers that do make it very possible he is just a benefactor of circumstance.

Were his tactics and him ever the main driving force for promotion in a way it was for us under Bielsa or Blades under Wilder or Fulham under Silva?

Or was Farke just fortunate that his DOF did his job in 1 season which helped carry them to 2 titles?

With his struggles at a very talented Borussia Mönchengladbach team raising more questions.

Until he proves different I'm leaning towards the latter atm.

But hopefully with the additional quality we hope to have it won't matter.

Get us promoted then we can sack him off

[DDB220]

I believe it is easier to simplify. The problem with Farke’s tactics, like Bielsa’s, hassenhutl and Marsch is having a defence devoid of pace. If you push people forward and cannot defend the counter the punishment is inevitable. The lack of pace will get exploited far more often against premiership teams.
Chances are we will be OK in the Championship with Struijk, Cooper etc. As was Norwich with the likes of Ganley. But as we have seen they get burned in the prem, forced into errors time and time again because if you lack pace you cannot allow yourself to be turned.

[VinnysTattoo]

I take comfort from the fact that Norwich under Farke were one of the few teams that outplayed us under Bielsa.

[danhirons]

my norwich fan friend is pretty jealous that we're getting him, so i take that was a positive

think his record is pretty top notch in the championship so why not, bit of a role of the dice but hey ho, can worry about the prem next year

[weasel]

It's his Championship record only worryingly, that's the concerning bit

Well as that is the case it completely blows your argument that Farke benefitted from xg. The season Noriwch went up 2018-2019 they actually conceded 11 more goals than they should - xg had them conceding 46 but they actually conceded 57 - so they achieved promotion despite underperforming massively. So whilst Pukki and others might have performed better than they should Krul conceded more than he should so in reality they achieved promotion and probably had an overall goal difference that was about right, they scored more than they should but also conceded a lot more than they should. As such I think we can put the Farke benefitted from xg argument to bed for his first promotion.


Without getting too deep into stats the second season they were promoted they scored 18 goals less than they did in their first promotion season. They also conceded 21 less than in their first season. So that might well suggest that in the second promotion season they changed tactics a bit and as a result scored less and conceded less and so had a very similar goal difference compared to the first season. It might also suggst that the attackers fared worse against xg whereas the keeper did better against xg.