Jesse Marsch

[Kennyb41]

There was definitely unrest in the dressing room, the reason why the board reacted as they did.

I'm of the thinking this is what happened, spearheaded by Rodrigo.

Shame.

[Kennyb41]

People not giving JM a chance are not giving him a chance because he isn't Bielsa but more likely because they are worried about JM as a coach full stop. It is hard to really know how good a coach he is because he is fairly much unproven as a coach, certainly in the big leagues where his only daliance is a failure in Germany. I think there has only been one person suggesting it is best he is sacked.

At this stage of the season luck can be a huge factor. I would suggest that so far there has been a micture of luck for Marsch. Take the Norwich game and with better luck (in front of goal) we don't need to get the bit of luck at the end. Against Leicester we got no luck. Similarly last night with a bit of luck (or better finishing) we go in front v Wolves and it is a different game. Similarly we had bad luck followed by good luck for our first 2 goals, hitting the post, shot cleared off the line but we still score, then James hits the crossbar we recylce the ball and score. Where in other games the shot hits the bar and goes out of play for a goal kick, or hits the post and is then cleared etc.

I think the vast majority of fans are happy to give JM a chance, whether they were for or against Bielsa being sacked. It doesn't mean that concerns being raised shouldn't be simply dismissed as being because he isn't Bielsa in the same way praise shouldn't be dismissed simply because he isn't Bielsa. But to come on and start a post by labelling people as Bielsa fan boys, as if it is an insult, smacks of being antagonistic. Like I said every Leeds fan should be thankful for what Bielsa did for us regardless of how it ended.

Amen to all that.

I just see things quicker than the average Joe that's all.

[danhirons]

Amen to all that.

I just see things quicker than the average Joe that's all.

Clearly more modest than the average joe too...

[Kennyb41]

Clearly more modest than the average joe too...

I hope you don't mind but i'll respond when i've had a few sherbets.

[weasel]

I'm of the thinking this is what happened, spearheaded by Rodrigo.

Shame.

If there is dressing room unrest then for me the board needs to be strong and back the manager even more and let the manager get rid of the players who are no longer giving their all. Not every player would have liked Ferguson at MU but they knew where they stood and anyone got out of line and Fergie got shut of them quickly. The trouble is these days is that players know that boards panic and sack maangers so the players know that they don't need to give their all, they can just down tools and wait for a new manager to come in and then play well again, until they don't like the new boss. This is the biggest problem at MU where players have too much power and the board has reacted to failure by replacing the manager rather than giving a manager time to build the team that he wants. They now have a squad consisting of players that have been brought in by 5 or 6 different managers and may not suit the next manager. Contrast to Man City where the players know they have to impress Guardiola or they won't play and they know if they don't play well they will be out of the team. Part of Fergie's brilliance was the way he kept changing his assistant manager. As such he could step back from training and the players wouldn't be getting bored of doing the same training every year (possibly a problem with Bielsa being so hands on). Fergie put a distance between himself and the players and everyone, including those above him at the club, knew who was in charge.

Whether there was a revolt at Leeds I don't know. I would expect there was a bit of concern amongst the players but if there was some sort of revolt I would be thoroughly disgusted by whoeevr was part of it.

[weasel]

Based on what I've seen so far I have no idea if Jesse Marsch is the right man to take us forward. But I have to say I like him.

I'm in the same boat. I like a lot about him, not keen on his continual self praise, but perhaps that is his way of trying to express confidence and make people believe in him. Yet to really know if his tactics will work but the main priority at present is to stay in the premier league and then try to work out what went wrong this season and learn from it. If it was that we over spent in our first year (the 2 years of transfers thing) then at least by not spending as much (we still spent more than lots of clubs) we are hopefully in a position to be able to afford 2 or 3 decent signings or more if Raphinha and KP (or others) leave.

It is a huge challenge for Marsch given that when we finished 9th we were probably overachieving by quite a lot. Marsch's successes in management has been at clubs who were a big fish in a small pond so it will be different for him as he will be having to try to beat better teams by getting his tactics right and also in getting the signings right.

[BGwhite]

I would say Rodrigro (I've not always been his biggest fan) looks like a transformed player since Marsch has come in. It's great to see that passion and energy, and the way he celebrated with fans. Long may it continue!

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[Finnatic]

Read the half time posts from last night's match thread. Many of Bielsa's biggest critics were first in with slamming Marsch, and some of us who supported Bielsa said he still deserves a chance.

As I said last night, it's not a matter of pro and anti Bielsa and Marsch. It's that some posters get hysterical and want everyone sacked, managers, players, the system is a shambles, we're doomed unless everything changes etc. And others stay calm.

This X100

[VinnysTattoo]

This international break will shine a bit more light on him as a manager/coach.

Can he get KP back and integrated into the squad? Will Cooper step back into the back four?

The biggest litmus test is if he can tighten up that leaky defence in a couple of weeks.

[SG90]

There was definitely unrest in the dressing room, the reason why the board reacted as they did.

Once you lose the dressing room, unfortunately you have to go. Interestingly Ayling was one of the players who was rumoured to have questioned Bielsa, and he was dire all season, but has been our best player under Marsch.

[Overman]

Once you lose the dressing room, unfortunately you have to go. Interestingly Ayling was one of the players who was rumoured to have questioned Bielsa, and he was dire all season, but has been our best player under Marsch.

Ayling must have burst in on a Bielsa and Roberts moment.

[1964white]

Once you lose the dressing room, unfortunately you have to go. Interestingly Ayling was one of the players who was rumoured to have questioned Bielsa, and he was dire all season, but has been our best player under Marsch.

As I posted up previously, Coops, Dallas & Ayling who in many respects are Bielsa's boys asked Marcelo for a clear the air meeting on squad issues, the meeting never took place!

[Johnboy1965]

People not giving JM a chance are not giving him a chance because he isn't Bielsa but more likely because they are worried about JM as a coach full stop. It is hard to really know how good a coach he is because he is fairly much unproven as a coach, certainly in the big leagues where his only daliance is a failure in Germany. I think there has only been one person suggesting it is best he is sacked.

At this stage of the season luck can be a huge factor. I would suggest that so far there has been a micture of luck for Marsch. Take the Norwich game and with better luck (in front of goal) we don't need to get the bit of luck at the end. Against Leicester we got no luck. Similarly last night with a bit of luck (or better finishing) we go in front v Wolves and it is a different game. Similarly we had bad luck followed by good luck for our first 2 goals, hitting the post, shot cleared off the line but we still score, then James hits the crossbar we recylce the ball and score. Where in other games the shot hits the bar and goes out of play for a goal kick, or hits the post and is then cleared etc.

I think the vast majority of fans are happy to give JM a chance, whether they were for or against Bielsa being sacked. It doesn't mean that concerns being raised shouldn't be simply dismissed as being because he isn't Bielsa in the same way praise shouldn't be dismissed simply because he isn't Bielsa. But to come on and start a post by labelling people as Bielsa fan boys, as if it is an insult, smacks of being antagonistic. Like I said every Leeds fan should be thankful for what Bielsa did for us regardless of how it ended.

Some people are fan boys simple as. If you can't see that then open your eyes.
I didn't mean to be antagonistic just saying it as I see it.

What is antagonistic is your patronising statements to me regarding Bielsa and what he has done for the club and city.
Being someone who up until 6 months ago lived my whole life in Leeds I am pretty much qualified in what he has achieved and the way he united a city as well as a club thank you.

All reigns come to an end and I believe it was the correct decision to sack him given the results and the fact that he was unlikely to be here next season anyway. I do however think the way the club handled it was appalling and disrespectful.

As for Allardyce etc I would honestly rather have watched Leeds in the Championship under Bielsa than in the PL under Allardyce or Dyche.

[BGwhite]

Ayling must have burst in on a Bielsa and Roberts moment.

LMBO !!

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[CHAPELALLMAN]

As I posted up previously, Coops, Dallas & Ayling who in many respects are Bielsa's boys asked Marcelo for a clear the air meeting on squad issues, the meeting never took place!

At the end of the day Bielsa was a very authoritarian manager who would probably brook no questioning of his methods or approach.

I liked aspects of his life away from football, in terms of him living in a small flat, shopping at Morrisons, having time for the fans etc, but I hated that authoritarian streak in him as a manager, and ultimately IMO that's what caused his downfall.

[Cjay]

Elements of the style Marsch employed were causing us real issues yesterday.

The man to man in defence.

The pressing to one side leaving the opposite side vacant and vulnerable to a switch of play.

The narrowness of the system left us exposed in the flanks as the full backs pressed the wing backs and the wingers merely ran into the empty space in behind.

These were Marsch's tactics and they weren't working and like any manager he deserves criticism for it as he got especially a half time.

They are worrying things as a fan and given I have read about how stubborn he is and how he is tactically inflexible and naive and how he cant organise a defence then concern is warranted going forward.

However he got his subs right and clearly has helped the lads find some character and fight (hence why we came back to win a game after being behind for the first time this season).

He had luck absolutely but which manager hasn't had some? I am sure Bruno Lage has had plenty and Pep has had plenty and Klopp and Bielsa and every manager.

Marsch deserves criticism and I don't regret what I said at half time but I do credit him with what he got right.

At this stage we needed points and Marsch has averaged 1.5ppg which is far far better than we were averaging and so clearly he deserves more credit than criticism at this stage.

[weasel]

Elements of the style Marsch employed were causing us real issues yesterday.

The man to man in defence.

The pressing to one side leaving the opposite side vacant and vulnerable to a switch of play.

The narrowness of the system left us exposed in the flanks as the full backs pressed the wing backs and the wingers merely ran into the empty space in behind.

These were Marsch's tactics and they weren't working and like any manager he deserves criticism for it as he got especially a half time.

They are worrying things as a fan and given I have read about how stubborn he is and how he is tactically inflexible and naive and how he cant organise a defence then concern is warranted going forward.

However he got his subs right and clearly has helped the lads find some character and fight (hence why we came back to win a game after being behind for the first time this season).

He had luck absolutely but which manager hasn't had some? I am sure Bruno Lage has had plenty and Pep has had plenty and Klopp and Bielsa and every manager.

Marsch deserves criticism and I don't regret what I said at half time but I do credit him with what he got right.

At this stage we needed points and Marsch has averaged 1.5ppg which is far far better than we were averaging and so clearly he deserves more credit than criticism at this stage.

Well done Cjay a balanced post with a proper assessment of JM - this is how it should be.

Interestingly in the equivalent 4 matches under Bielsa we gained the same 6 points albeit with a win and 3 draws. 7 goals for 6 against. JM 2 wins 2 draw 5 goals for 7 against. So it is definitely a case of far too soon to really pass judgement and to say we are doing better is only the case if we take it as doing better than the immediate games prior to JM taking over or the season as a whole. Saying we have turned a corner is far too early, we have arrested a slide that was largely caused by playing better teams (Everton apart) and as such it would likley have been that no matter who was in charge we would have seen an upturn in form.

We should get more of an idea after the international break as JM will have had a better chance to implement his ideas and most of our internationals will be training with him too after not being selected.

[Cjay]

Was getting a bit concerned that we seemed to be going a bit to direct and were slowly turning into Burnley.

Jesse Marsch isn't a possession based coach in the same way Pep Guardiola is or even Marcelo Bielsa. That was actually the problem he had at RB Leipzig, the squad had gotten used to playing Julian Nagelsmann's methodical possession based style, they couldn't adapt to Marsch's more high intensity gegenpressing style.

Marsch likes his teams to have possession but he isn't quite so focused on how they get it forward just so long as they do.

So it does mean a long ball is encouraged.

However from memory whilst a lot of passing through the thirds did happen under MB i seemed to remember a long ball or two wasnt out of the question either, so i decided to have a quick look.

So these are the stats for the 20/21 season under Bielsa, in brackets are the Premier League rank.
80.8% pass accuracy (12th)
55% possession (4th)
Long balls per game 58 (8th)
Short passes 442. (8th)

So as you can see, we ranked very high for possession, we also ranked fairly high for both long and short passes (but not top 4 like with possession).

I havent marked it but the missing stats are through balls and crosses.

We were high on the list for crossed per game.

So i looked at the 4 games under Hesse Marsch next

Average Marsch
458.5 passes
57.25 long passes
379.5 short passes
78.5% pass accuracy
51.5 possession 

So the possession stats are slightly down from 55% under Bielsa last season to 51% now.

So that will impact passing stats clearly, will make less passes.

Interestingly though the long passes per game are ever so slightly down on BielsaBall.

57.25 under Marsh to 58 under MB. That being said the percentage of long passes has increased because we are having less possession under Marsch and therefore making less passes

Passing accuracy is slightly down as well, from 80.8% under Bielsa to 78.5% under Marsch. That makes sense given we make less passes per game but only a tiny bit less long passes, accuracy is bound to be impacted.

However last season was unique and possibly the circumstances impacted these stats, so i looked at our season average now (which will be slightly impacted by Marsch but not massively given he has only managed 4 games).

21/22
54% possession
79.2 pass accuracy.
55 long passes
393 short passes

And actually you can see a change.

Possession is down, pass accuracy is down etc and actually if you compare the fixtures under Bielsa to the ones Marsch has had (same teams) you can see it more clearly.

Marsch is on the left and the stats under Bielsa are in brackets.

If you are really clever you can work out the comparison in your head, if like me you cant i have put it down the bottom of the list.

Wolves. (Bielsa)
471 passes (521 passes)
51 long passes (47 long passes)
397 short passes (451 short passes)
80% pass accuracy (81%)
53% possession.   (63%)

Norwich  (Bielsa)
448 passes (363 passes)
67 long passes (56 long passes)
353 short passes (296 short passes)
75% pass accuracy (73%)
53% possession  (52%)

Villa (Bielsa)
443 passes (492 passes)
68 long passes (42 long passes)
368 short passes (423 short passes)
79% pass accuracy (83%)
51% possession. (60.5%)

Leicester (Bielsa)
472 passes (470 passes)
43 long passes (52 long passes)
400 short passes (386 short passes )
49% possession (55.8%)
80% pass accuracy (77%)

Average
458.5 passes (461 passes).
57.25 long passes (49.25)
379.5 short passes (389)
78.5% pass accuracy (78.5%)
51.5 possession  (57%)

So total passes are very similar and pass accuracy is identical.

Despite this Bielsa had far more possession so what i assume is the crossing stats under Bielsa would be through the roof, these are the missing numbers.

But in terms of short passes and passing through the thirds the short passes suggest it isn't much different at all.

The pass accuracy reflects that as does the short pass total which isnt hugely different.

We are more direct under Marsch, or at least because we have less possession the long to short pass ratio is higher under Marsch because we make less passes overall.

However it isnt aimless hoofs because if that was the case the pass accuracy stats under the more possession based Bielsa style would be far higher, but it isn't and the short passing stats arent that different either.

Furthermore whilst the season average stats will be very slightly impacted by Marsch's 4 games they wont be much impacted, you are maybe talking. 1% at best something like that

And those stats show our possession stats are slightly down this season, our pass accuracy is down and we were going long under Bielsa a bit more ratio wise and so the difference between Marsch and Bielsa this season is pretty minimal.

I think what makes it seem more is because we have got used to having far more possession under Bielsa overall (not necessarily this season) but in general over the years we are used to seeing a lower long pass ratio and so MarschBall seems quite direct.

But actually this season in particular under Bielsa is has been a slightly more direct style in general and not to dissimilar to Marsch.

We arent turning into Burnley under Marsch but just perhaps adapting to a slightly less possession based style.

His style is more high intensity, win it back and get it forward.

He doesnt put as much focus on possession as Bielsa so if we win it back middle of our half and a long ball over the top to Dan James is the most effective way to get on the front foot then it is encouraged whereas maybe Bielsa had a slightly different view.

Anyway this thread is far to long but hey ho

[The Subhuman]

Don't think he deserves to have his name on a system yet. That's reserved for the greats

[Cjay]

Don't think he deserves to have his name on a system yet. That's reserved for the greats

Probably not but I needed a title and it was convenient