Marcelo Bielsa

[whiteswan]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didnt Bielsa change things the latter part of last season? Shored us up a bit. So there is hope yet. Not sure why he didnt start this season the way we ended last season mind.

[Johnboy1965]

Last nights game was a humiliation, no two ways about it, but I don't think changing the manager at this stage will do us any good.
I agree, that we do need a change, but let's wait until the summer when we have more time to get the right man in rather than a knee jerk reaction now which will almost certainly see us relegated.
I honestly believe that this will be MB's last season in charge regardless as I think he knows he has taken this group as far as he can and he is not one for rebuilding as his previous record shows.
This is his mess along with Radz. Otra and Kinnears, it's now up to them to get us out of the s**t which they created.

The next 6 or 7 weeks will define whether this great club of ours will be playing in the PL next season as unless we strengthen in January then I reckon we will go down as at the moment I think the players are shot of confidence. and look prime candidates for the drop.

[John in Louisiana]

Bielsa is our man. Getting rid of him would be a panic move and would be poor treatment for the leader who has done so much for our club.

Time to shore up our support for both Bielsa and the players.

What message does it send to them when we say we need better players and a new manager if we are to stay up? What frame of mind will they be in if January comes and goes and nothing happens?

I believe in Bielsa and I believe in our players. We're getting our injuries out of the way (hopefully) during a stretch of games that we couldn't expect to prosper in even with a full lineup. Things will get better.

Maybe I'm whistling past the graveyard, but I believe this.

[Mountain]

It's all academic. All the demands about changing style is a waste of time.

Bielsa has spent decades perfecting his philosophy, hundreds of thousands of hours thinking about the game, it has brought him adoration from fans and respect across the board.

He's not going to change it all because Timmy on some anonymous forum says "stick a kid up front, change to zonal marking, kick the ball harder and sign a new midfielder".

[weasel]

I had the misfortune to travel down to Upton Park one cold November evening in 1966 to watch Leeds play West Ham in a League Cup tie. We were on the crest of a wave - Runners-up in the league and cup finalists the previous season, and in the top four in the league, and West Ham were 17th in the table. Don had professed before the match that we were going to play for the draw, which to my young mind was inconceivable.

The result a 7-0 loss, and a miserable journey home for my uncle and I. The defence that night was Sprake, Madeley, Charlton, Hunter and Bell. and we had Bremner, Giles and O'Grady in midfield, yet we tried to "park the bus". If social media had been around in those days, the Don would have been castigated, and no doubt, a thread like this one would have been started. Makes you wonder, eh.

Well said. The main problem with the park the bus tactic is that if you do concede then you have nowhere to go. Concede early and you're still likely to get battered. 90 minutes feels like a lifetime if all you are doing is trying to repel wave after wave of attack.

You can't just take a side that has been set up to play one way and expect them to suddenlt be able to play another way. Look at what happened to the high energy O'Leary side when he brought Brian Kidd in and tried to change that team into a slower tempo team built around possession. The players weren't comfortable with it at all. That is why it was so amazing what Bielsa did when he took over and got a team without a real shape or style and suddenly got the same players playing in such a beautiful way that none of us would have thought possible with the players we had.

[weasel]

Strange how the likes of Guardiola, Klopp etc view Bielsa differently to Timmy from the forum. Strange how Guardiola gets his team to play the Bielsa way. Strange how a team who can buy the best player for every position to suit the Bielsa way of playing can beat a team missing some of their better players and assembled in the main from other team's cast offs. Strange how a team that can spend £40m on a 4th choice centreback, £50m on back up full backs etc can beat a team that have not come close to spending that sort of money on a first team starter.

Yup must be the manager. Timmy's nailed it.

[liggy]

Sacking Bielsa now would be suicide
The squad is championship standard
Look at sheff utd

Newcastle are obviously going to throw money at it in January
So the league is Southampton Brenford Norwich the toon maybe palace and Everton but I don't see it

I think leeds will be OK
But Bielsa needs to be in charge

[Orange Box]

I had the misfortune to travel down to Upton Park one cold November evening in 1966 to watch Leeds play West Ham in a League Cup tie. We were on the crest of a wave - Runners-up in the league and cup finalists the previous season, and in the top four in the league, and West Ham were 17th in the table. Don had professed before the match that we were going to play for the draw, which to my young mind was inconceivable.

The result a 7-0 loss, and a miserable journey home for my uncle and I. The defence that night was Sprake, Madeley, Charlton, Hunter and Bell. and we had Bremner, Giles and O'Grady in midfield, yet we tried to "park the bus". If social media had been around in those days, the Don would have been castigated, and no doubt, a thread like this one would have been started. Makes you wonder, eh.

It does indeed Gandalf, but I never said MB should park the bus, just plug the gaping holes. I was a tad too young to go away in 66, that was the year of my first home game. I started to go away in 68, and recall a trip to Burnley that year, where we got thumped 5-1. we didn't park the bus that day, a gang of our finest hooligans however did their best to turn a bus over just outside the ground, which when you consider the tilting capacity of an old double decker, they were on a hiding to nothing. A bit like asking MB to reconsider his tactics?

[Gandalf]

It does indeed Gandalf, but I never said MB should park the bus, just plug the gaping holes. I was a tad too young to go away in 66, that was the year of my first home game. I started to go away in 68, and recall a trip to Burnley that year, where we got thumped 5-1. we didn't park the bus that day, a gang of our finest hooligans however did their best to turn a bus over just outside the ground, which when you consider the tilting capacity of an old double decker, they were on a hiding to nothing. A bit like asking MB to reconsider his tactics?

I wasn't being facetious, Orange, just trying to show you, probably badly, that Don couldn't always find a solution either. MB did change things at half time, which gave us a bit more productivity going forward, However, I saw a stat this morning which stated that the first misplaced pass, by Man City came in the 80th minute. That is astonishing (if true), and shows the level that we were up against. MB did say in his press conference, that he did try to make us more solid in the first half, but nothing he tried came off.

[Orange Box]

I wasn't being facetious, Orange, just trying to show you, probably badly, that Don couldn't always find a solution either. MB did change things at half time, which gave us a bit more productivity going forward, However, I saw a stat this morning which stated that the first misplaced pass, by Man City came in the 80th minute. That is astonishing (if true), and shows the level that we were up against. MB did say in his press conference, that he did try to make us more solid in the first half, but nothing he tried came off.

I never for a minute thought you were being facetious mate, it was a point you made well.
Yesterday was like a game we used to play at school. First team attack vs second team defence. It always got messy. And that was our approach as far as I could see, messy.
If MB says he changed things then he did, he’s that honest. But honestly, it was too clever and too subtle for my Sunday pub league standard knowledge.

[1964white]

I had the misfortune to travel down to Upton Park one cold November evening in 1966 to watch Leeds play West Ham in a League Cup tie. We were on the crest of a wave - Runners-up in the league and cup finalists the previous season, and in the top four in the league, and West Ham were 17th in the table. Don had professed before the match that we were going to play for the draw, which to my young mind was inconceivable.

The result a 7-0 loss, and a miserable journey home for my uncle and I. The defence that night was Sprake, Madeley, Charlton, Hunter and Bell. and we had Bremner, Giles and O'Grady in midfield, yet we tried to "park the bus". If social media had been around in those days, the Don would have been castigated, and no doubt, a thread like this one would have been started. Makes you wonder, eh.

I remember that hammering.

[CanuckMightyWhite]

Strange how the likes of Guardiola, Klopp etc view Bielsa differently to Timmy from the forum. Strange how Guardiola gets his team to play the Bielsa way. Strange how a team who can buy the best player for every position to suit the Bielsa way of playing can beat a team missing some of their better players and assembled in the main from other team's cast offs. Strange how a team that can spend £40m on a 4th choice centreback, £50m on back up full backs etc can beat a team that have not come close to spending that sort of money on a first team starter.

Yup must be the manager. Timmy's nailed it.

Very well said, and the truth. There is no way we should consider parting with Bielsa, at least not until the summer (and even then if it were his choosing).

[1964white]

It does indeed Gandalf, but I never said MB should park the bus, just plug the gaping holes. I was a tad too young to go away in 66, that was the year of my first home game. I started to go away in 68, and recall a trip to Burnley that year, where we got thumped 5-1. we didn't park the bus that day, a gang of our finest hooligans however did their best to turn a bus over just outside the ground, which when you consider the tilting capacity of an old double decker, they were on a hiding to nothing. A bit like asking MB to reconsider his tactics?

My first away game was that Burnley game in '68, Bremner scored after about twenty minutes, then Ralph Coates, Frank Casper & Steve Kindon had a field day. Also went to our only other defeat that season at Maine Road.

[Byebyegeegee]

No new Manager for me thank you, there really would be nothing to be gained at this stage in the season. Stay up or be relegated either way Raphinha, Phillips and possibly Meslier will go and Marcelo will call it a day. So there will have to be a major rebuild next summer come what may imo. If we stay up then we will be in the hands of the SF49ers to rebuild if we are relegated then Radz will have to start from scratch albeit with the aid of parachute payments.

After the shock of last night’s performance I am now, in the cold light of day, resigned to whatever will be will, if we manage to stay up, ok. If we get relegated, so what?

[Overman]

Probably the same type of fans who thought Bates was a saviour and GFH and Cellino were doing a good job. I wouldn't pay too much credence to it tbh. At the end of the day, Bielsa will be going after this season, and we need to start planning for life without him. I am just hoping this will be in the PL and not the Championship. If it was the latter, then we wouldn't be an attractive proposition for any potential investor, only more shysters.

[Cjay]

In fairness Pep, Simeone, Poch, Gallardo etc have all taken their influence from Bielsa but they have all adapted his ideas, they haven't copied them.

The fact is his disciples are generally more successful than him (a fact he himself has recognised).

Even Pep with all his money and talented players hasn't copied Bielsa.

MB is an idealist to the extreme, that's the difference.

[1964white]

After the shock of last night’s performance I am now, in the cold light of day, resigned to whatever will be will, if we manage to stay up, ok. If we get relegated, so what?

We'll lose 30,000 glory fans, which should make it much easier for us loyal fans to acquire tickets once again.

If Brentford go down with us & Plymouth/Oxford/Accrington Stanley are promoted to the championship, I'll have a few new grounds to attend

Fed up with the Premier League & we are not even halfway through the season yet.

[weasel]

In fairness Pep, Simeone, Poch, Gillard etc have all taken their influence from Bielsa but they have all adapted his ideas, they haven't copied them.

The fact is his disciples are generally more successful than him (a fact he himself has recognised).

Even Pep with all his money and talented players hasn't copied Bielsa.

MB is an idealist to the extreme, that's the difference.

Far easier to make tweaks when you have players that are the best or amongst the best in the world in their positions. When getting 60 or 70% out of a player makes them a far better player than Bielsa getting 200% out of a player playing in the same position for Leeds. Pep's first season in charge of City saw him fail - when he was then able to buy players he achieved success. Coincidence?
Guardiola is a great manager but he hasn't managed a team where a player in any position wouldn't be amongst the best in the world. He hasn't managed any team where a weak link couldn't be replaced by the very best.

Pochetino has probably achieved a similar level of success to Bielsa. Not really won trophies but has improved what he had at the teams he went to. Didn't have the support to buy the 1 or 2 key players that could have made the difference.

I just fail to see why anyone thinks that any manager would get more out of the players we have. Most managers would come in and use excuses from the Hecky Handbook and say the players all needed replacing therefore excusing themselves of any initial blame. For a manager to do better at Leeds they would need to buy better players.

[Gandalf]

We'll lose 30,000 glory fans, which should make it much easier for us loyal fans to acquire tickets once again.

If Brentford go down with us & Plymouth/Oxford/Accrington Stanley are promoted to the championship, I'll have a few new grounds to attend

Fed up with the Premier League & we are not even halfway through the season yet.

We might lose a few c**ks from here, as well, so not all doom and gloom. Saves me from not joining Ges on the absentee list.

[Cjay]

Far easier to make tweaks when you have players that are the best or amongst the best in the world in their positions. When getting 60 or 70% out of a player makes them a far better player than Bielsa getting 200% out of a player playing in the same position for Leeds. Pep's first season in charge of City saw him fail - when he was then able to buy players he achieved success. Coincidence?
Guardiola is a great manager but he hasn't managed a team where a player in any position wouldn't be amongst the best in the world. He hasn't managed any team where a weak link couldn't be replaced by the very best.

Pochetino has probably achieved a similar level of success to Bielsa. Not really won trophies but has improved what he had at the teams he went to. Didn't have the support to buy the 1 or 2 key players that could have made the difference.

I just fail to see why anyone thinks that any manager would get more out of the players we have. Most managers would come in and use excuses from the Hecky Handbook and say the players all needed replacing therefore excusing themselves of any initial blame. For a manager to do better at Leeds they would need to buy better players.

The job Pep did at Barcelona is underrated imo but take your point (wasn't all about cash that).

Simeone and Gallardo have done amazing jobs by adapting MB's ideas without having the wealth and cash initially.

I don't think anyone else would get more out of this squad but the squad required an overhaul as some of us said in the summer and imo I think that loyalty and assumption made by MB and the board put us in this situation.

They were wrong quite simply and pushed this squad 1 season to far.

We will see what happens in January (early doors I hope)