Leeds United v Leeds United who wins?

[The Subhuman]

Assuming full fitness who wins and is it close?

---------1st Team -----------------2nd Team--------

Meslier -------------- GK --------------------- Klaesson
Ayling ----------------RWB -------------------Shackleton
Firpo -----------------LWB ------------------- McCarron
Llorente ------------ RCB -------------------- Koch
Cooper --------------LCB -------------------- Cresswell
Phillips --------------DMF ------------------- Struijk
Dallas ----------------CMF ------------------- Klich
Raphinha ------------RW -------------------- Summerville
James -----------------LW -------------------- Harrison
Rodrigo -------------AMF -------------------- Roberts
Bamford ------------- CF --------------------- Gelhardt

[1964white]

Difficult to predict how close or the score Faaip.

I would say nine times out of ten our first team would win

[The Subhuman]

Difficult to predict how close or the score Faaip.

I would say nine times out of ten our first team would win

Not so sure, Raph would probably rip McCarron a new one, but likewise I don't see Firpo coping with Sommerville. Klich is the better 8, Klaesson looks class. I'm not a Bamford fan so Gelhardt wins the battle of the strikers for me. Roberts/Rodrigo is a toss up. Some would say Shackleton is better than Ayling now, Struijk plays for Team 2 and nearly all of us think he's better than the club captain even if he's playing DMF here. Harrison v James is a coin toss and which is on better form any given day.

Over 5 games? - 2 wins for the ones, 2 draws and a win for the two's is how I think it would pan out

[1964white]

Our forwards & defenders on both sides would certainly know each other strengths & weaknesses.

[Cjay]

Fully fit and in good form then 1st wins 7/10.


Meslier vs Klaesson isnt close, Klaesson wasnt even that highly rated in his own country before he arrived where as Meslier whilst not faultless has shown that he can make save after save at the top level.

Ayling vs Shacks id give to Shacks as Faaip alluded to. Think Shacks has more energy and drive.

Firpo vs McCarron- Another mismatch really. Whilst Firpo is yet to show it here he was at one point considered a very decent full back in La Liga (although defensively he was a bit dodgy) but as a lwb head and shoulders over McCarron.

Llorente vs Koch . Llorente at his best imo is a top 10 Premier league defender, Koch isnt at that level imo

Cooper vs Cresswell. Im no Cooper fan but it doesnt seem logical to say a kid with barely any first team experience is better than him at this stage.

KP vs Struijk- Not even close as a dm, Struijk does his best but KP is at his best one of the leagues best in that role.

Dallas vs Klich. On top form fully fit then Klich, he may not have the energy of Dallas but a better technical player imo.

Raph vs Jimmy. Raph, Jimmy has potential but Raph is fast becoming a £100mil player and is head a shoulders the most talented of this group.

James vs Harrison . .God knows erm at their respective bests erm evens, i dont think their is much between them.

Rodrigo vs Roberts . Not as easy as it should be, talent wise on form its Rodrigo. He is the proven top level international with a very decent reputation whereas Robets is kept out of International starts by Championship randoms. But that role doesnt suit Rodrigo at all, and it doesnt suit Roberts either but he has played BielsaBall longer. But as its in top form fully fit have to say Rodrigo

Bamford vs Gelhardt . .Bamford, he is the proven player here. Everyone can think Joffy but until we see it on a consistent basis like with Cresswell vs Cooper you have to give it to the more proven player imo.

So for me the 1st at top form has to much quality.

Its to much of an assumption to say that the kids would out play their more experienced counterparts.

Not enough evidence

[1964white]

Meslier vs Klaesson isnt close, Klaesson wasnt even that highly rated in his own country before he arrived where as Meslier whilst not faultless has shown that he can make save after save at the top level.

Have to say, if Meslier suffers an injury & becomes unavailable at some stage this season, I'd be extremely concerned.

I've watched the majority of our U23's games & Klaesson has made some right clangers, admittedly he is young & playing behind a dodgy defence, however I'm unconvinced he is ready for first team football yet.

[SG90]

Have to say, if Meslier suffers an injury & becomes unavailable at some stage this season, I'd be extremely concerned.

I've watched the majority of our U23's games & Klaesson has made some right clangers, admittedly he is young & playing behind a dodgy defence, however I'm unconvinced he is ready for first team football yet.

I think Van der Heuvel has more potential of the two.

[The Subhuman]

Fully fit and in good form then 1st wins 7/10.


Meslier vs Klaesson isnt close, Klaesson wasnt even that highly rated in his own country before he arrived where as Meslier whilst not faultless has shown that he can make save after save at the top level.

Ayling vs Shacks id give to Shacks as Faaip alluded to. Think Shacks has more energy and drive.

Firpo vs McCarron- Another mismatch really. Whilst Firpo is yet to show it here he was at one point considered a very decent full back in La Liga (although defensively he was a bit dodgy) but as a lwb head and shoulders over McCarron.

Llorente vs Koch . Llorente at his best imo is a top 10 Premier league defender, Koch isnt at that level imo

Cooper vs Cresswell. Im no Cooper fan but it doesnt seem logical to say a kid with barely any first team experience is better than him at this stage.

KP vs Struijk- Not even close as a dm, Struijk does his best but KP is at his best one of the leagues best in that role.

Dallas vs Klich. On top form fully fit then Klich, he may not have the energy of Dallas but a better technical player imo.

Raph vs Jimmy. Raph, Jimmy has potential but Raph is fast becoming a £100mil player and is head a shoulders the most talented of this group.

James vs Harrison . .God knows erm at their respective bests erm evens, i dont think their is much between them.

Rodrigo vs Roberts . Not as easy as it should be, talent wise on form its Rodrigo. He is the proven top level international with a very decent reputation whereas Robets is kept out of International starts by Championship randoms. But that role doesnt suit Rodrigo at all, and it doesnt suit Roberts either but he has played BielsaBall longer. But as its in top form fully fit have to say Rodrigo

Bamford vs Gelhardt . .Bamford, he is the proven player here. Everyone can think Joffy but until we see it on a consistent basis like with Cresswell vs Cooper you have to give it to the more proven player imo.

So for me the 1st at top form has to much quality.

Its to much of an assumption to say that the kids would out play their more experienced counterparts.

Not enough evidence

Think it's closer than you think, lets move Struik to CB and Koch to DMF. Struijk lost to Kalvin in your summery and Koch to Llorente (thought when he's played I think Koch has looked our best central defender. His only game this season as the DMF) but Struijk probably beats Coop while Koch still loses but to Kalvin)

Firpo is basically learning from scratch and it shows a lot of the time, McCarron also learning a new position but the has the experience in English football. It is though the only position where we're very short on depth. Can't pick Dallas twice for this thought experiment. It's a wash for me because a) Firpo has yet to show it in a game and b) McCarron is an unknown who could easily come in and light it up

Sorry have to give the battle of the strikers to Joe and he did more in 30 minutes than Bamford did in 5 games, better first touch, two footed, quicker, stronger, better close control, better movement.

I went Klaesson as he's the one on the bench for the first team atm. (att. SG)

Meslier v Klaesson - 1-0
Ayling v Shack - 1-1
Llorente v Cresswell - 2-1
Cooper v Struijk - 2-2
Firpo v McCarron - 2.5-2.5
Phillips v Koch - 3.5-2.5
Dallas v Klich - 3.5-3.5
Raph v Summerville - 4.5-3.5
James v Harrison - 5-4
Rodrigo v Roberts - 5.5-4.5
Bamford v Gelhardt - 5.5-5.5

The ace here is of course Raph unless Joe becomes our Rooney and that's to say from nowhere to top class undroppable almost overnight and I wouldn't bet against him.

I could also have put in Bate and Greenwood into the 2's

Second question, how does it look if you move Raph from the firsts to the seconds?

[The Subhuman]

BTW, this thought experiment is to basically to see if we have strength in depth, if anyone thinks the 1's wins 4/5 times out 5 or that moving Raph into the twos makes no difference then you're gonna be of the opinion we have no depth

If you think that it would be a lot closer than it looks or Raph makes the 2's too strong then it would seem you think we have good strength in depth

Option 3 would be we're s**t right through and that's why it looks close... Option 3 would definitely be glass almost empty.

[Chilli D]

It's interesting that a lot of people say the squad is too small but with the exception of Klaesson and McCarron, all those listed have played for the first team. And McKinstry, Greenwood and Drameh have as well and they're not even listed.

The first team would edge it most times I think.

[1964white]

It's interesting that a lot of people say the squad is too small but with the exception of Klaesson and McCarron, all those listed have played for the first team. And McKinstry, Greenwood and Drameh have as well and they're not even listed.

The first team would edge it most times I think.

It's not small Chilli, but it lacks quality replacements, beyond our first 12/13 regulars, we struggle to win football matches.

Meslier - unconvinced Klaesson is ready to step into Illan's boots if required.

Ayling - I for one, think we have missed Luke bombing down the right.

LB - proven that if Dallas doesn't play there, we've had problems this season.

Llorente - there's no getting away from the stats here, when Diego is unavailable, we leak goals.

Dallas - when Stuart was having personal problems/out of form, we struggled.

Klich/Midfield - until Forshaw returned, Kalvin has had to cover much ground in the middle of the park due to Klich out of form, Dallas playing LB, Rodrigo not a workhorse, Koch injury.

Raphinha - god knows how we'd fare without our Brazilian star should he picks up an injury. Harrison/James are nowhere near in the the same class, both often choose the wrong options, hence only one assist between them all season. Summerville is still very raw, so his talent is unknown at PL level, I personally think he deserves more game time, particularly as the two in front of him are totally under-performing.

Bamford - oh how much we have missed him, we miss his work rate & tireless running, his goals & assists. No other player has stepped up to the plate as his replacement. One goal & two assists in the five games he played this season, two of those matches were the Man U & Liverpool batterings.

We have no game-changer off the bench, apart from possibly Gelhardt

The spine/crux of our team

Meslier
Llorente
Phillips
Raphinha/Dallas
Bamford

Take one of those cogs out & we struggle

[Byebyegeegee]

The team with Meslier, Llorente, Phillips and Raphinha, our 4 best players at the moment, wins.

[Leeds1000]

The first team wins everytime.

The only ones i would quibble about are James/Harrison Harrison has had a stinker, but James hasn't been much better. Its still too early to say at the top of their games who is best.

And the the young lad Cresswell looks a real prospect.

[1964white]

The first team wins everytime.

I thought I was being generous with my nine out of ten times

[whiteroseboy]

The team with Meslier, Llorente, Phillips and Raphinha, our 4 best players at the moment, wins.

For me those 4 are automatics and each makes a difference.
Would also include Dallas but in which position is dependant on what other players you use.
You can then shuffle the others into the other 6 positions and the team strength will not change that much.

Close to including Struijk who would be next on that list.

What we need is 8 or 9 players that make a difference not 5 or 6 then we will compete near the top.

Teams listed on paper 1st team wins 10/10 but it's football and on grass so 8 wins, one draw & one defeat for me.

[1964white]

For me those 4 are automatics and each makes a difference.
Would also include Dallas but in which position is dependant on what other players you use.
You can then shuffle the others into the other 6 positions and the team strength will not change that much.

Close to including Struijk who would be next on that list.

What we need is 8 or 9 players that make a difference not 5 or 6 then we will compete near the top.

Teams listed on paper 1st team wins 10/10 but it's football and on grass so 8 wins, one draw & one defeat for me.

Agree on Dallas & Struijk

When any of those 5 or 6 are unavailable we struggle to win football matches

As you say Whiterose, we require the whole unit to be operating effectively, not just a few as has been the case so often this season.

[Cjay]

Meslier v Klaesson - 1-0
Ayling v Shack - 1-1
Llorente v Cresswell - 2-1
Cooper v Struijk - 2-2
Firpo v McCarron - 2.5-2.5
Phillips v Koch - 3.5-2.5
Dallas v Klich - 3.5-3.5
Raph v Summerville - 4.5-3.5
James v Harrison - 5-4
Rodrigo v Roberts - 5.5-4.5
Bamford v Gelhardt - 5.5-5.5

Second question, how does it look if you move Raph from the firsts to the seconds?

Moving Struijk and Raph would change it a bit.

For me.

Meslier v Klaesson 1-0
Ayling vs Shacks- 1-1
Llorente vs Cresswell-2-1
Cooper vs Struijk- 2-2
Firpo vs Mccarron- 3-2
Kp vs Koch- 4-2
Dallas vs Klich- 4-3
Summerville vs Raph-4-4
James vs Harrison- 5-5
Rodrigo vs Roberts - 6-5
Bamford vs Gelhardt- 7-5.

Its closer but i still cant give the marks to Gelhardt for example (know you dont like Bamford fair enough) but a decent cameo isnt enough for me to say he is atm a better player than a England international.

The issue isnt actual depth, we have plenty of warm bodies to fill spaces.

The issue is quality.

As someone who frequents other forums the general consensus throughout this league is that LUFC is mainly made up of Championship/lower Premier league level players.

Opposition fans see us as one of the weakest squads down their with Burnley and Norwich

And they probably arent wrong.

In terms of above average Premier league players we havent many.

If you asked other fans how many of our players they would take then it probably wouldn't exceed a handful.

So the issue isnt depth in itself (MB doesnt rotate anyway) the issue is quality imo.

5 of those players are just kids with potential.

Klaesson, Joffy, Jimmy, Cresswell, McCarron.

Its actually amazing to see that we as a Premier league club only have 17 senior players, doesnt even fill a match day squad.

Oh Forshaw is 18, ive never liked the small squad.

But yeah depth in itself isnt an issue, quality is imo.

[whiteroseboy]

The points system is fine but doesn't cater for there been a significant difference in standard between some players yet still only worth one point,

eg, Such as Meslier is miles better than Klaesson or Raph is miles in front of Summerville.
Other positions are much closer Harrison v James or Dallas v Klich.

Just a suggestion but how about giving 3 points for each position (close ones can score 2-1 -

Mesleir v Klaesson 3-0
Ayling v Shackleton 2-1
Llorente v Creswell 3-0
Cooper v Struijk 1-2
Firpo v McCarron 3-0
Phillips v Koch 3-0
Summerville v Raph 0-3
Dallas v Klich 1.5-1.5
Rodrigo v Roberts 2-1
James v Harrison 1.5-1.5
Bamford v Gelhardt 3-0

25 - 10 (or 28-7 if Raph goes in his rightful place).

All opinions though depending on how you rate each player.

Just think the kids get over rated at times, full of potential I agree but if we played them all every week we would struggle.
Think you only have to look at some of the performances in the U23 league or the U21's against league one & two opponents.

Can be brilliant at times but far more prone to errors and lapses in concentration than senior players.
As I said lots of potential and not saying don't play them, to me its about playing them one at a time alongside seasoned pros, and a few cameos from the bench, will pay dividends in the long term. All about development none of them are the finished product.

[The Subhuman]

Moving Struijk and Raph would change it a bit.

For me.

Meslier v Klaesson 1-0
Ayling vs Shacks- 1-1
Llorente vs Cresswell-2-1
Cooper vs Struijk- 2-2
Firpo vs Mccarron- 3-2
Kp vs Koch- 4-2
Dallas vs Klich- 4-3
Summerville vs Raph-4-4
James vs Harrison- 5-5
Rodrigo vs Roberts - 6-5
Bamford vs Gelhardt- 7-5.

Its closer but i still cant give the marks to Gelhardt for example (know you dont like Bamford fair enough) but a decent cameo isnt enough for me to say he is atm a better player than a England international.

The issue isnt actual depth, we have plenty of warm bodies to fill spaces.

The issue is quality.

As someone who frequents other forums the general consensus throughout this league is that LUFC is mainly made up of Championship/lower Premier league level players.

Opposition fans see us as one of the weakest squads down their with Burnley and Norwich

And they probably arent wrong.

In terms of above average Premier league players we havent many.

If you asked other fans how many of our players they would take then it probably wouldn't exceed a handful.

So the issue isnt depth in itself (MB doesnt rotate anyway) the issue is quality imo.

5 of those players are just kids with potential.

Klaesson, Joffy, Jimmy, Cresswell, McCarron.

Its actually amazing to see that we as a Premier league club only have 17 senior players, doesnt even fill a match day squad.

Oh Forshaw is 18, ive never liked the small squad.

But yeah depth in itself isnt an issue, quality is imo.

Wasn't Bamford's England appearance a poor cameo versus a team he really should have done a lot better against... I'll be surprised if Paddy makes a meaningful second appearance.