Covid

[whiteroseboy]

traditionally I think of a vaccine as an attenuated virus... such as the vaccine used for polio.

The link you provided so aptly states...

"The vaccines made by Pfizer and Moderna use tiny oily envelopes called lipid nanoparticles to slip a single strand of genetic material called messenger RNA (mRNA) into our cells."

and this a method of delivering mrna for the covid spike protein is entirely novel and original... it uses your own genetic machinery to produce the spike proteins.

I don't believe that it is integrated into your DNA, or that it alters a DNA in any way, these appear to be strawmen arguments to be set up to be easily knocked down.

To be honest it amazes me who works it all out but think I grasp the jest of what you are saying here.

Do you have a chemical background?

I worked in the Chemical industry including drug development but as a engineer so repaired the various equipment rather than understand what they were doing.

But given all the facts I've read after sifting through lots of garbage (on both sides) I still firmly believe the Vaccine is my best option but respect anyone that thinks different.
At end of day it's about opinions and we all should follow our own instincts.

History will provide the eventual answer like it often does.

Take Care.

[Smudge3920]

The variant is spiking , increasing everyday here in the colonies...my town population 60K (approx) cases increased from 27 to 250 in less than 2 weeks, ICU admissions up, yet most of the provinces have re-opened completely and all restrictions lifted in the last 2 weeks Politics, politicions really scared of saying no...elections close )...... and the most cases are from the younger age groups, not the elderly we can argue and debate as much as we want, but it is real people.

[Sara]

Apologise accepted but my main response was to do with the fact that you listed Vitamin D & Zinc as ways to boost your immune system (not giving any details about amounts) which of course they do but only if you already have low amounts. Most people get enough of both of these by living a healthy health style and having a decent diet.

From experience I've spoke to people (usually misled by supplement companies) that think the more you take the better your immune system will be when in real terms will have the opposite effect.
Not saying that is what you thought it was just not clear which you acknowledge.

I'm happy to accept its your choice not to have the Vax as much as its my choice to have it.

My belief is that no way can natural immunity work against the virus in the same way that the likes of Polio, Yellow Fever, TB, etc needed a vaccine to get on top of it.

Just a question why do you think in this case natural immunity will work better than a vaccine ?

I've already posted links to the most recent research on immunity. Again, as already mentioned, the findings are that immunity naturally acquired from infection is broader in effect, and longer lasting than immunisation by vaccine. There is therefore no benefit to someone who has already had covid also having the vaccine; but there are, of course, personal risks involved, and the social risk of selecting for variants as more of the population is vaccinated.

I'm not going to keep repeating it, anyone who is interested can check it out for themselves. I'm not pushing a message onto anyone else, this is just the evidence and the reasoning behind my personal decision not to get vaccinated. I do resent being spoken down to, badgered, and treated like a second class citizen as a result, however.

[whiteroseboy]

Apologise accepted but my main response was to do with the fact that you listed Vitamin D & Zinc as ways to boost your immune system (not giving any details about amounts) which of course they do but only if you already have low amounts. Most people get enough of both of these by living a healthy health style and having a decent diet.

From experience I've spoke to people (usually misled by supplement companies) that think the more you take the better your immune system will be when in real terms will have the opposite effect.
Not saying that is what you thought it was just not clear which you acknowledge.

I'm happy to accept its your choice not to have the Vax as much as its my choice to have it.

My belief is that no way can natural immunity work against the virus in the same way that the likes of Polio, Yellow Fever, TB, etc needed a vaccine to get on top of it.

Just a question why do you think in this case natural immunity will work better than a vaccine ?

I've already posted links to the most recent research on immunity. Again, as already mentioned, the findings are that immunity naturally acquired from infection is broader in effect, and longer lasting than immunisation by vaccine. There is therefore no benefit to someone who has already had covid also having the vaccine; but there are, of course, personal risks involved, and the social risk of selecting for variants as more of the population is vaccinated.

I'm not going to keep repeating it, anyone who is interested can check it out for themselves. I'm not pushing a message onto anyone else, this is just the evidence and the reasoning behind my personal decision not to get vaccinated. I do resent being spoken down to, badgered, and treated like a second class citizen as a result, however.

Really

Which part of my post in response in a debate with Rab do you consider speaking down to you?

[Smudge3920]

Afterchecking as many new articles and papers as I can ... it would appear that the concensus here in the colonies is that it is unvaccinated adults that is driving the current increase....the mass of publications on both sides is infuriating.

[The Subhuman]

I've had both jabs but would be quite happy to meet up with anyone who hadn't... The risk stays exactly the same

[Sara]

Apologise accepted but my main response was to do with the fact that you listed Vitamin D & Zinc as ways to boost your immune system (not giving any details about amounts) which of course they do but only if you already have low amounts. Most people get enough of both of these by living a healthy health style and having a decent diet.

From experience I've spoke to people (usually misled by supplement companies) that think the more you take the better your immune system will be when in real terms will have the opposite effect.
Not saying that is what you thought it was just not clear which you acknowledge.

I'm happy to accept its your choice not to have the Vax as much as its my choice to have it.

My belief is that no way can natural immunity work against the virus in the same way that the likes of Polio, Yellow Fever, TB, etc needed a vaccine to get on top of it.

Just a question why do you think in this case natural immunity will work better than a vaccine ?



Really

Which part of my post in response in a debate with Rab do you consider speaking down to you?

It was a general comment, not about you personally.

[Sara]

I've had both jabs but would be quite happy to meet up with anyone who hadn't... The risk stays exactly the same

Friday, as usual then...?

[The Subhuman]

Yep ... I'll bring the keg bitter

[whiteroseboy]

It was a general comment, not about you personally.

no worries assumed as you were quoting my post it was somewhere there.

[rab_rant]

FYI taken from the NIH. Should be an interesting read for all people who have been vaccinated. People on the trail have to pass stringent criteria before they are accepted. it seems to be a well thought out and planned trial

Ask yourself would you have been exclude from the trail because of a pre existing condition.
Information taken from clinical trials.gov

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Official Title:
A PHASE 1/2/3, PLACEBO-CONTROLLED, RANDOMIZED, OBSERVER-BLIND, DOSE-FINDING STUDY TO EVALUATE THE SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY OF SARS-COV-2 RNA VACCINE CANDIDATES AGAINST COVID-19 IN HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS
Actual Study Start Date :
April 29, 2020
Estimated Primary Completion Date :
May 2, 2023
Estimated Study Completion Date :
May 2, 2023

Note that the results of the trial will only be available in 2 years time.

They will not take anyone on the trial who have the following risk factors.

Exclusion criteria
Phase 1 only: Individuals at high risk for severe COVID-19, including those with any of the following risk factors:

Hypertension
Diabetes mellitus
Chronic pulmonary disease
Asthma
Current vaping or smoking
History of chronic smoking within the prior year
BMI >30 kg/m2
Anticipating the need for immunosuppressive treatment within the next 6 months

Food fior thought

[whiteroseboy]

FYI taken from the NIH. Should be an interesting read for all people who have been vaccinated. People on the trail have to pass stringent criteria before they are accepted. it seems to be a well thought out and planned trial

Ask yourself would you have been exclude from the trail because of a pre existing condition.
Information taken from clinical trials.gov

https://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT04368728

Official Title:
A PHASE 1/2/3, PLACEBO-CONTROLLED, RANDOMIZED, OBSERVER-BLIND, DOSE-FINDING STUDY TO EVALUATE THE SAFETY, TOLERABILITY, IMMUNOGENICITY, AND EFFICACY OF SARS-COV-2 RNA VACCINE CANDIDATES AGAINST COVID-19 IN HEALTHY INDIVIDUALS
Actual Study Start Date :
April 29, 2020
Estimated Primary Completion Date :
May 2, 2023
Estimated Study Completion Date :
May 2, 2023

Note that the results of the trial will only be available in 2 years time.

They will not take anyone on the trial who have the following risk factors.

Exclusion criteria
Phase 1 only: Individuals at high risk for severe COVID-19, including those with any of the following risk factors:

Hypertension
Diabetes mellitus
Chronic pulmonary disease
Asthma
Current vaping or smoking
History of chronic smoking within the prior year
BMI >30 kg/m2
Anticipating the need for immunosuppressive treatment within the next 6 months

Food fior thought

The criteria clearly states its for phase 1 not phase 2 & 3.
Phase 1 is about reaction to the jab which I believe is normal way of testing.
Would be difficult if not impossible to get a true result of jab reaction if complicated by other health issues.
Phase 2/3 is about effectiveness and those restrictions you list don't exist.

No real surprise to me.

[rab_rant]

The Nuermberg code

1. The voluntary consent of the human subject is absolutely essential.

This means that the person involved should have legal capacity to give consent; should be so situated as to be able to exercise free power of choice, without the intervention of any element of force, fraud, deceit, duress, over-reaching, or other ulterior form of constraint or coercion; and should have sufficient knowledge and comprehension of the elements of the subject matter involved as to enable him to make an understanding and enlightened decision. This latter element requires that before the acceptance of an affirmative decision by the experimental subject there should be made known to him the nature, duration, and purpose of the experiment; the method and means by which it is to be conducted; all inconveniences and hazards reasonably to be expected; and the effects upon his health or person which may possibly come from his participation in the experiment.

The duty and responsibility for ascertaining the quality of the consent rests upon each individual who initiates, directs or engages in the experiment. It is a personal duty and responsibility which may not be delegated to another with impunity.

2. The experiment should be such as to yield fruitful results for the good of society, unprocurable by other methods or means of study, and not random and unnecessary in nature.

3. The experiment should be so designed and based on the results of animal experimentation and a knowledge of the natural history of the disease or other problem under study that the anticipated results will justify the performance of the experiment.

4. The experiment should be so conducted as to avoid all unnecessary physical and mental suffering and injury.

5. No experiment should be conducted where there is an a priori reason to believe that death or disabling injury will occur; except, perhaps, in those experiments where the experimental physicians also serve as subjects.

6. The degree of risk to be taken should never exceed that determined by the humanitarian importance of the problem to be solved by the experiment.

7. Proper preparations should be made and adequate facilities provided to protect the experimental subject against even remote possibilities of injury, disability, or death.

8. The experiment should be conducted only by scientifically qualified persons. The highest degree of skill and care should be required through all stages of the experiment of those who conduct or engage in the experiment.

9. During the course of the experiment the human subject should be at liberty to bring the experiment to an end if he has reached the physical or mental state where continuation of the experiment seems to him to be impossible.

10. During the course of the experiment the scientist in charge must be prepared to terminate the experiment at any stage, if he has probably cause to believe, in the exercise of the good faith, superior skill and careful judgment required of him that a continuation of the experiment is likely to result in injury, disability, or death to the experimental subject.

[rab_rant]

No real surprise to me.

But might be a surpise to SaraM and Faaip who are both asthmatic to find they would be excluded from the trail... since their inclusion might skew the result in a negative way.

[Sara]

Yep ... I'll bring the keg bitter

I'll bring me own gluten...

[Sara]

But might be a surpise to SaraM and Faaip who are both asthmatic to find they would be excluded from the trail... since their inclusion might skew the result in a negative way.

Being asthmatic actually helped me when I had covid, because they gave me a course of steroids. Probably stopped the respiratory attack from getting any worse than it did.

[rab_rant]

Being asthmatic actually helped me when I had covid, because they gave me a course of steroids. Probably stopped the respiratory attack from getting any worse than it did.

Well there you are... anecdotal evidence that a repurposed drug can have an ameliorate effect on covid. I find that prophylactic treatments are hardly ever discussed as the only solution seems to be vaccination.

I found this video discussing zinc... just a doctor giving his opinion.

https://youtu.be/aIvRR_y5i-k

[whiteroseboy]

Well there you are... anecdotal evidence that a repurposed drug can have an ameliorate effect on covid. I find that prophylactic treatments are hardly ever discussed as the only solution seems to be vaccination.

I found this video discussing zinc... just a doctor giving his opinion.

https://youtu.be/aIvRR_y5i-k

Another view which backs up what I was taught -
https://www-popsugar-co-uk.cdn.ampproje ... c-44565486

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... 0#symptoms

[The Subhuman]

I double dose Vit d and Iron everyday, if I don't I get anaemic. That's not a surprise for a Coeliac really and it's impossible to balance as it takes 10 days to get blood tests back by which time my levels have changed. So I double dose daily high dose Vit D and either liquid iron or the slow release tablet and cross my fingers that's getting into my bloodstream. I still get days when I find it a struggle to complete even simple tasks which is fun for work..

[Leeds1000]

Origins of Covid? We all feel its a lab leak, but who is going to take responsibility for the leak and the fact its turned our existence upside down. If Covid came out of a lab then why, how and for what purpose was this thing being cultivated? Here stick this in your arm and everything will be ok is not good enough for me.

Meanwhile people are tearing strips of each other about vaccinations and their efficacy, old berating young, young towing the line despite being at very little risk and yet no one is asking the fundamental questions of why and will this ever happen again.
With all the restrictions, masks, deaths, vaccinations & segregation, i think its the least they should do don't you. Until they give us a answer on where this thing came from i will play no further part in their political drama. They can go F*** themselves right off.