Leeds United v AC Milan Match Thread

[DDB220]

My observations on some of the main talking points here from yesterday.

Schmidt : I can see why Farke is reluctant to use him and i don't see a future for him here at Leeds, he'll obviously come into consideration if he's still here and we get desperate through injuries, but yesterday defensive positioning, timing of going forward, knowing when to stay back and not go forward, sprinting to get back in time, getting right side of the player, in fact there's a large number of reasons he'd get caught out at wing back, especially in top flight football that i don't see him in Farkes plans unless forced, he's got a bit of something going forward but the negatives far outweigh any positives and his position would be targeted week in and week out defensively, he needs to come on a lot in the English game and i don't think we're in a position to bring him on especially in the Premier, strikes me as Championship level at best atm, or some continental league like Austria, I wouldn't totally give up on him but we haven't got the time and need players ready to go.

In saying all that the RWB and LWB probably have become two of the most important positions now in world football (have been for some time) they are vital to any attack focussed team these days, just look how the top teams are seeking them out to buy, they have to pound up and down that touchline non stop in attack and defence obviously bringing with it complications defensively that doing that brings, you can excuse some defensive mishaps because of this but must try and limit the number like weighing up risk v reward scenarios. Gudmundson seemed to get that balance far better than Schmidt yesterday.
On a sidenote re Byram's contribution - I've always felt he does better at LB than RB, so i'd prefer Byram as cover at LWB and i'm not sure at RWB, perhaps shared, but we're quite desperate in those positions as we're not moneybags City types.
I think we'd be just fine if Bogle and Gudmunson stayed fit all season, they'll most definitely get exposed at times because we're relegation fodder until the manager and club can spend bigger, but for the most part they're posibly as good as we can expect for the position we're in, we won't attract a Frimpong, Ait-Nouri, Robertson etc players like that that i think Farke would love to have.

Jack Harrison - First of all i don't think he'll be here now after yesterday and hopefully/possibly off to Rangers if nobody else enters the fray for him.
I was glad to see him tried at LWB and i think that said from Farke that Willy, Rama, James and Aaronson are in front of him on the wings and that he doesn't particularly want him.
Re - the boos, they died down a little after some of the fans let him know their thoughts on his mam and his so called desertion, I'm not really bothered about JH he doesn't offer much to what we've already got and at best just bolsters the squad for any long winter through injuries/suspensions type of thing, if i'm honest i'd be happier to see him leave, especially for money.
If he did walk around the pitch alone, doesn't that normally mean 'goodbye? I don't know i missed it.

I was impressed by our 4-3-3 and shows me Farke actually does have other strings to his bow and that the 4-2-3-1 was the necessary formation best equipped and deployed for winning the Championship, also explains to me why he stuck by it for winning that division and the players he had at his disposal. Obviously more needs to be observed but yesterday it gave us an indication that Farke will switch it up for different opponents that we come up against, good stuff. I also liked yesterday that even when 5 introductions were made simultaneously each seemed to fit in quite smoothly given the amount and knew the system well.
We are badly lacking in some class though, nobody has that touch of magic although Stach seemed to stand out from the rest through intelligence, positional sense and overall quality, that's what you get when you can spend more money/have good scouting.

In the James/Aaronson debate over who starts, I'd plump for Aaronson starting as there's not much to choose between them as to what you get different from each, I feel Aaronson is the better all round player, but James gives you something else with his speed, speed that will probably come in handy from the bench for the last 25-30mins. The same could be said for Gnonto/Rama, in fact the 4 of them leave me thinking like i'd just play them all for like 45 mins each because i struggle to choose who over who, perhaps the upcoming game and opponents would better determine that.

Still struggling with Piroe although he's looking better, still missing in action for large parts, but something i did notice yesterday was him trying to take the game by the scruff of the neck and shoot at his first chance, also noticed what could be some nice link up interchange play with Stach - something to work on/work in progress?

Overall the game left me more optimistic, but we are on a knife edge squad wise and would like to see at least 4 more through the door, and i'm well aware that the jury is still well out on the majority of our players stepping up for a full season in the Prem and that all the above could come crashing right down with some thumpings, and that it's still fingers crossed for the most part.

Mot.


You do realise CJAY and Weasel have monopolised posts needing more than 7 paragraphs. They have been restrained of late. Please do not set them off.

Incidentally I agree with many of your comments. DJ is not fit, which was abundantly apparent yesterday. Half a yard slower than normal.
He also was not able to get up and down the pitch like he can when he is fit.
If we have to rely on Schmidt he will need more help than DJ was able ( with his current level of fitness) to provide against AC.

[weasel]

Everyone I spoke to yesterday agreed that Stach was our best player & Schmidt easily the worst. Really noticeable that without Aaronson to bail him out defensively he looked lost but he was left isolated at times with little cover from midfield & Joe moving into the centre to cover the inevitable crosses into the box. If we start v Everton with Schmidt we’re in serious trouble.
Had a fantastic day in Dublin & the atmosphere was special for what was essentially an away game, meeting Eddie Gray, Stuarty Dallas & the lovely Emma Jones were the icing on the cake.

Schmidt showing the fans that Farke was right in his decision not to give him many minutes last season despite certain fans on here suggesting that Schmidt was much better than he clearly is and using it as a stick to beat Farke with. Echoes of how those same fans were clamouring for Joseph to be starting games at the end of the 23/24 season and labelling Farke an idiot for not playing him - and then Joseph proved Farke right by being so poor last season. The same fans who continue to berate Farke over Cresswell and think he is better than Rodon because he has had a good season in France rather than using their eyes and judging the player when he actually plays (never had a dominant game for us and was poor in most of the goals England conceded at the youth tournament).

[1964white]

Everyone I spoke to yesterday agreed that Stach was our best player & Schmidt easily the worst.

And everybody was correct.

[1964white]

Schmidt showing the fans that Farke was right in his decision not to give him many minutes last season despite certain fans on here suggesting that Schmidt was much better than he clearly is and using it as a stick to beat Farke with. Echoes of how those same fans were clamouring for Joseph to be starting games at the end of the 23/24 season and labelling Farke an idiot for not playing him - and then Joseph proved Farke right by being so poor last season. The same fans who continue to berate Farke over Cresswell and think he is better than Rodon because he has had a good season in France rather than using their eyes and judging the player when he actually plays (never had a dominant game for us and was poor in most of the goals England conceded at the youth tournament).

Poor old Daniel, and he's been correct on all three calls.

Farke could take a hammering this year too, as our win rate won't be anywhere near what he achieved last season.

Keeping us up won't be enough for some of our fan base.

[The Subhuman]

Poor old Daniel, and he's been correct on all three calls.

Farke could take a hammering this year too, as our win rate won't be anywhere near what he achieved last season.

Keeping us up won't be enough for some of our fan base.

I'll say it again, if he keeps us up he moves level with Bielsa overall, he had an easier task first season back as the gap wasn't as big and we added better players

[PhoenixUnited]

We have only seen snippets of Schmidt last season and there were many that thought he might be a likely lad and wondered why Daniel Farke was giving him a wide berth. Now we have seen Schmidt in preseason friendlies. They are not really the best way to assess the capabilities of players as they build up their fitness levels, sort of try to make an impression with the manager in a team format although the players know fine well that the Boss has already made his mind up and they don't go at it full pelt for fear of getting injured.

In the case of Schmidt there's all that plus he is almost out the door to go on loan to Werder Bremen and he has an eye on getting into the Swiss side for World Cup qualification. Perhaps then we are seeing a player going through the motions at Leeds as Farke seen him daily and has worked out if he's any good or not.

Even taking all that into account there are signs that Schmidt is out of his depth. His positional play, tackling and obviously his application is no where at the level needed. Signing him was a punt and he does not look as all like he can make a fist of it at Leeds. Farke already knows it.

[GreennWhite]

Its not all about Farke this season. Of course he has a very large part to play in proceddings, but it is as important/more important that the players do their jobs well.
He can instruct them till he is blue in the face but if they fail to carry out the instructions well enough then there isnt much more he can do. I know this won`t matter to those that dislike Farke, but no matter what he does, they will never change their attitude, so no point paying attention to them.

[The Subhuman]

It looked to me like Farke (who loves one classic and one inverted player wide) had Schmidt play inverted wing back as he seemed to with Archie (both players playing narrower than a usual wing back) as it helps solidify the midfield. Think that's why Schmidt got caught a few times. Did some good defensive stuff though if he was in the right position.

I'm not sure Wing back is where Farke thinks Schmidt should play, he seldom played there last season even when called upon. Not our worst player Saturday.

[weasel]

Poor old Daniel, and he's been correct on all three calls.

Farke could take a hammering this year too, as our win rate won't be anywhere near what he achieved last season.

Keeping us up won't be enough for some of our fan base.

All the armchair warriors who never make a wrong decision because their decisions never get put to the test. He should have brought this sub on, should have played this player etc - but because it didn't happen they of course are smug in the knowledge that of course the decision that they made would have won us the game. Now though we have seen what actually happens when two of these decisions (to play Joseph and Schmidt) are actually put to the test. Joseph and Schmidt weren't up to it.

That isn't to say neither of those players has the talent to do well. I would say most footballers at even lower levels have talent. What we are seeing more and more though these days is that players also need to fit systems and have the brains to follow instructions. Natural ability is no longer the key factor. No longer do we see a Matt LeTissier type as a luxury player who doesn't have to track back, press etc. Schmidt is part of a structure, a balance between attack and defence and what we saw was Farke clearly finding that Schmidt was in the wrong place time after time, a misfiring cog that can break the whole machine.

Joseph may thrive in a different system. Maybe the Spnaish U21 way of playing suits him better or maybe it is just that he looks good in a star studded team playing vastly inferior opposition. Similar to Schmidt he may thrive in a different team.

[Shando]

Its not all about Farke this season. Of course he has a very large part to play in proceddings, but it is as important/more important that the players do their jobs well.
He can instruct them till he is blue in the face but if they fail to carry out the instructions well enough then there isnt much more he can do. I know this won`t matter to those that dislike Farke, but no matter what he does, they will never change their attitude, so no point paying attention to them.

This is so true GW, when we play EFC on Monday i'll be judging our performance overall like scoring a boxing match.

If we totally outscore them on pts and we have clearly more chances on goal but draw 1-1 it's always disappointing, but if individual errors cost us, how can we blame the manager when they are all the tools he has, no wonder managers fume when players should pass or score (take Willy for example v Milan, a schoolboy could've buried that chance or just passed it) and what if Stach decides to bury it and not choose to hit the crossbar instead ? Stach whose then individual decision to hammer in a low curling shot hard into a packed dangerous 6yd box scores us the equaliser, now did Farke tell him to do those things? I very much doubt it.

So let's say James is through on goal twice v Everton Monday night and fails to slot the ball home on either occasion, or the keeper pulls off a worldie to deny Piroe etc, these are all individual decisions that a manager can play no part in, a manager can get all the tactics correct, his team can totally outplay the opponents, but he cannot make split second decisions to pass, shoot and so is dependent on that individual making the right decision.

Some do, some don't and the team can lose 0-1 and the manager gets it because results matter in football.
But we should still judge on Monday whether we were - Unlucky to lose, there were reasons for the defeat, or whether the manager just ballsed it up altogether and we were well beaten, it isn't hard to do i feel.

[Cjay]

All the armchair warriors who never make a wrong decision because their decisions never get put to the test. He should have brought this sub on, should have played this player etc - but because it didn't happen they of course are smug in the knowledge that of course the decision that they made would have won us the game. Now though we have seen what actually happens when two of these decisions (to play Joseph and Schmidt) are actually put to the test. Joseph and Schmidt weren't up to it.

That isn't to say neither of those players has the talent to do well. I would say most footballers at even lower levels have talent. What we are seeing more and more though these days is that players also need to fit systems and have the brains to follow instructions. Natural ability is no longer the key factor. No longer do we see a Matt LeTissier type as a luxury player who doesn't have to track back, press etc. Schmidt is part of a structure, a balance between attack and defence and what we saw was Farke clearly finding that Schmidt was in the wrong place time after time, a misfiring cog that can break the whole machine.

Joseph may thrive in a different system. Maybe the Spnaish U21 way of playing suits him better or maybe it is just that he looks good in a star studded team playing vastly inferior opposition. Similar to Schmidt he may thrive in a different team.

Wasn't Bielsa praised for taking players of lower talent, coaching them to the peak of their abilities and then coaching them to such a level they fit into his system?

Farke though isn't held to those standards yet somehow he's still right and a success?

Cresswell clearly showed he had talent above Championship level and is now worth far more than we sold him for yet Farke was somehow right?

Likewise if Joseph does well in La Liga somehow Farke will still be right?

As for Schmidt he's being dismissed and Farke once again called right based on some pre season friendlies against top level opponents above what we played last season whilst being asked to defend far more than anything last season and still Farke has been deemed right?

It just seems twisted logic to me

Farke is praised for basically doing the opposite to Bielsa.

[Cjay]

Its not all about Farke this season. Of course he has a very large part to play in proceddings, but it is as important/more important that the players do their jobs well.
He can instruct them till he is blue in the face but if they fail to carry out the instructions well enough then there isnt much more he can do. I know this won`t matter to those that dislike Farke, but no matter what he does, they will never change their attitude, so no point paying attention to them.

But isn't that his job to coach them till the point they do?

Otherwise what actually is a coach responsible for?

Unless we are saying whatever happens is all down to the players? Good or bad.

And how do we know they aren't doing what he tells them? We aren't on the training pitch? He may tell the full backs to tuck in for example to cover the midfield runners?

Short of being on the training pitch it's not possible to know what is a coaching issue or what is a player one.

So at one point is the coach responsible?

[Pullhard]

Willy had a one on one with the Milan keeper and fluffed his lines. It was more like a back pass.

If Paddy or Joseph had done the same. There would be smoke coming out of forum keyboards.

[GreennWhite]

But isn't that his job to coach them till the point they do?

Otherwise what actually is a coach responsible for?

Unless we are saying whatever happens is all down to the players? Good or bad.

And how do we know they aren't doing what he tells them? We aren't on the training pitch? He may tell the full backs to tuck in for example to cover the midfield runners?

Short of being on the training pitch it's not possible to know what is a coaching issue or what is a player one.

So at one point is the coach responsible?

But thats the point im making. He can only do so much. He coaches them correctly and gets them in training to do all the right things, but we all know training is one thing, competitive games are totally differnt. If they then screw things up during games, he on a hiding to nothing, because people will jump on the bandwagon and criticse him, saying its fault. You are correct in saying no one knows exactly what he tells players and what he wants them to do at particular moments in games.But once again he can only instruct them to do this or that and at the end of the day a player still has to make that critcal decision sometimes in a split second.
Farke is far from perfect and no one is saying he is perfect, what people are doing is giving the guy credit for the things he does, and the way he has handled matters at the club since he arrived. Yes he may have got things wrong but he got a hell of a lot more right, then wrong.
You dont like Farke, you never wanted him as manager and wont be happy until he is no longer at the club. Thats your prerogative, i have no problem wih that, but at least give him and the club credit when they deserve it. and stop continually trying to belittle him at every oportunity.

[Shando]

But thats the point im making. He can only do so much. He coaches them correctly and gets them in training to do all the right things, but we all know training is one thing, competitive games are totally differnt. If they then screw things up during games, he on a hiding to nothing, because people will jump on the bandwagon and criticse him, saying its fault. You are correct in saying no one knows exactly what he tells players and what he wants them to do at particular moments in games.But once again he can only instruct them to do this or that and at the end of the day a player still has to make that critcal decision sometimes in a split second.
Farke is far from perfect and no one is saying he is perfect, what people are doing is giving the guy credit for the things he does, and the way he has handled matters at the club since he arrived. Yes he may have got things wrong but he got a hell of a lot more right, then wrong.
You dont like Farke, you never wanted him as manager and wont be happy until he is no longer at the club. Thats your prerogative, i have no problem wih that, but at least give him and the club credit when they deserve it. and stop continually trying to belittle him at every oportunity.

Norwich fans in their droves rue the day they wanted him sacked; did you know that GW?
I wish i could find the article somewhere that i read, i'll check the bbc it's what i tend to read the most, but they talked about his build etc and nothing but downhill since.

[Cjay]

But thats the point im making. He can only do so much. He coaches them correctly and gets them in training to do all the right things, but we all know training is one thing, competitive games are totally differnt. If they then screw things up during games, he on a hiding to nothing, because people will jump on the bandwagon and criticse him, saying its fault. You are correct in saying no one knows exactly what he tells players and what he wants them to do at particular moments in games.But once again he can only instruct them to do this or that and at the end of the day a player still has to make that critcal decision sometimes in a split second.
Farke is far from perfect and no one is saying he is perfect, what people are doing is giving the guy credit for the things he does, and the way he has handled matters at the club since he arrived. Yes he may have got things wrong but he got a hell of a lot more right, then wrong.
You dont like Farke, you never wanted him as manager and wont be happy until he is no longer at the club. Thats your prerogative, i have no problem wih that, but at least give him and the club credit when they deserve it. and stop continually trying to belittle him at every oportunity.

I realise because it's me and my opinions are well known it will be dismissed as such but how do we know he's coaching them to do the right things?

Because if you check analysis of his previous times at Norwich and Borussia Mönchengladbach you will see actually off the ball it's a shambles.

Full backs tucking in ? Farke coached the same at Norwich and Mönchengladbach. Why? Because he likes to crowd the central areas like most pressing coaches and keep the spaces centrally (in the threatening areas thanks Jesse Marsch) tight.

Did it work? No, because the off the ball structure was awful, the gaps were too big and teams got through them at will. It was a poorly coached system or the players ignored Farke which either way is bad for him.

We can credit Farke for the Championship stuff and promotion and possession football , I've no issue with that.

Top level football off the ball structure? He has no credit, no evidence he can coach it efficiently and therefore imo its upto him to show he can.

And I think that's perfectly reasonable?

It's why I defended Schmidt, he may not be brilliant defensively, but his starting position tucking in is 100% a coaching instruction as it was the same elsewhere.

And of course it would be nice to have better players able to make those split second decisions better but we aren't in a position to rely on that because the type of players able to rely on in that regard go to clubs higher up the food chain.

So we are far more reliant on coaching.

And that's all.

People have allowed Farke immense leeway for his top level escapades, fair enough.

But the idea he coaches them to do the right things at the top level is at best speculation at this point.

Because I think we can all agree it's quite a different style than last season in the Championship? And one as of yet he's never made work.

[CUSSIE01]

It looked to me like Farke (who loves one classic and one inverted player wide) had Schmidt play inverted wing back as he seemed to with Archie (both players playing narrower than a usual wing back) as it helps solidify the midfield. Think that's why Schmidt got caught a few times. Did some good defensive stuff though if he was in the right position.

I'm not sure Wing back is where Farke thinks Schmidt should play, he seldom played there last season even when called upon. Not our worst player Saturday.

Interested in who you think was worse than Schmidt on Saturday SH ? Sometimes fans see things on tv that those at the match can miss but everyone who we spoke to during and after the game agreed that A. He didn’t look remotely interested. B. Was completely lost positionally, C. When overlapping he never tried to beat the defender & get a cross in preferring to put the brakes on & pass backwards, D. Was by far our worst player with Stach our best.

[The Subhuman]

Interested in who you think was worse than Schmidt on Saturday SH ? Sometimes fans see things on tv that those at the match can miss but everyone who we spoke to during and after the game agreed that A. He didn’t look remotely interested. B. Was completely lost positionally, C. When overlapping he never tried to beat the defender & get a cross in preferring to put the brakes on & pass backwards, D. Was by far our worst player with Stach our best.

Longstaff was invisible for the most part. James was poor apart from very late.. I did like Schmidt trying to get the ball to James who seemed late with his timing on his runs, and when in position Schmidt did a good job of marshalling the Milan winger twice.

He got turned because, as I say, Farke tucked him in narrow and we didn't see the usual Dan James defensive effort. He's not a speed back so the beating of the defender is not his forte, He's not Bogle 2.0, neither is Byram. He did set the ball up for James to beat the defender which he didn't do much

Also thought Gudmundsson wasted a couple of good positions going forward, lacks Firpo's vision, I cursed twice.

[CUSSIE01]

Longstaff was invisible for the most part. James was poor apart from very late.. I did like Schmidt trying to get the ball to James who seemed late with his timing on his runs, and when in position Schmidt did a good job of marshalling the Milan winger twice.

He got turned because, as I say, Farke tucked him in narrow and we didn't see the usual Dan James defensive effort. He's not a speed back so the beating of the defender is not his forte, He's not Bogle 2.0, neither is Byram. He did set the ball up for James to beat the defender which he didn't do much

Also thought Gudmundsson wasted a couple of good positions going forward, lacks Firpo's vision, I cursed twice.

Fair points

[weasel]

Wasn't Bielsa praised for taking players of lower talent, coaching them to the peak of their abilities and then coaching them to such a level they fit into his system?

Farke though isn't held to those standards yet somehow he's still right and a success?

Cresswell clearly showed he had talent above Championship level and is now worth far more than we sold him for yet Farke was somehow right?

Likewise if Joseph does well in La Liga somehow Farke will still be right?

As for Schmidt he's being dismissed and Farke once again called right based on some pre season friendlies against top level opponents above what we played last season whilst being asked to defend far more than anything last season and still Farke has been deemed right?

It just seems twisted logic to me

Farke is praised for basically doing the opposite to Bielsa.

Yes but equally Bielsa found players that were either unable to, or didn't want to, play his way. Pontus Jannson being the big example with Bielsa preferring the less talented Berardi because Berardi was a better fitting cog. Bielsa also preferred other cogs to Cresswell.

Same with Pep. Went to title winners Man City and found his way didn't work and they finished 3rd. Bought 3 fullbacks, each costing £50m, as they were key cogs for him. Bielsa was a lot better at Pep at moulding players and getting the best out of them (KP being the prime example) .

As I said though Farke knows his system(s) and what players fit it far better than the fans. The players mentioned may all go on to be world beaters but it doesn't mean thay fitted Farke's system or would have been world beaters at Leeds (or even do better than the players they were competing with for a starting place).