Should he stay or should he go?

[weasel]

"The issues" in the summer didn't have anything to do with not beating Watford in March when we were 2nd.

Or Sunderland when we were 2nd.

Or the poor December form.

Anyway 7 points from our last 8 is what did us.

They did though. A better start and we are neck and neck with Leiecester and Ipswich a lot earlier. We hit our good run and mayeb pull away, or at least pull away from 3rd place. Then the pressure isn't on as much, we can drop points and still go up etc. We saw with Bielsa season 2 that we had ups and downs throughout the season but beacuse we'd had a good start we were always there or thereabouts. We then had a coupld of good runs, pre-covid break and then after the Cardiff loss post covid break which saw us cement our place so that we could afford to lose a couple of games. As such it never got to any 'must win' type matches for us and we were able to navigate our ways to wins such as those against Swansea and Barnsley where we weren't great but didn't need to go all out for a win at the risk of losing (ala Blackburn).

It also meant as we were always chasing there was less option to experiment. We did it the once, lost to Stoke and never risked it again as we couldn't afford to risk dropping points. As such this likely leads to a bit of burnout either physically or mentally towards the end of the season. Ipswich got off to a flyer and were then able to experiment, rotate a bit more, bring subs on early etc. Did it help them at the end of the season? Cannot say for definite but it probably didn't harm them. The fact their subs all seemed to come on and do well helped too whereas we had the likes of Gnonto or Bamford coming on and doing nothing.

So for me the start of the season wouldn't have been an issue if it wasn't for Leicester and Ipswich getting off to amazing starts. Leicester were able to have a huge wobble, bigger than ours, and recover as all that happened was that their huge lead was cut. Same for Ipswich they had a biggish wobble but were able to recover. We never got to the point where we were more than a point or two ahead of Ipswich. We never got into a real position of strength it was always where there was still huge pressure on the next game.

I agree our end cost us but our start played a significant part in our end being what it was.

Hopefully we can get off to a decent start next season and build momentum and be in a strong position all season whereby we can afford to have a dip or two without going into meltdowm.

[1964white]

But that's literally what a Championship squad is.

Bielsa had a limited squad, Mckenna had a limited squad.

The manager is meant to make the difference.

Farke doesn't.

Bielsa had experienced campaigners, a set-piece specialist in Pablo & goals from his No.9, central-midfield & CBs. Farke team has none of those attributes.

[weasel]

That's a Championship squad.

Consistent 7 or 8s play at the highest level.

Farke is a bang average Championship manager said it all along.

Have you never heard of expressions along the lines of seasoned championship pro? There are plenty that aren't quite good enough for the prem but great in the championship.

I said it before the match we needed a couple from Gnonto, Summerville and Rutter to perform really well and then the rest of our team to simply be steady. The rest of our team was steady, we conceded just the 1 goal which is our best return v Southampton this season but simply offered little threat from our big 3.

Would be the same for LIverpool, would they have won many matches if Salah, Mane and Firmino all played sh*t in the same match? The coach/manager can come up with tactics etc but if players don't pay as well as they can, especially when they are the 'difference makers' then the team is going to struggle.

Man U won loads of titles because 2 or 3 players, the difference makers, performed and the rest got their 7s and 8s. Schmeichel makes the saves and then a Cantona or Van Persie, Beckham or a Giggs etc does something wonderful.

Our big game players went missing.

[weasel]

Bielsa had experienced campaigners, a set-piece specialist in Pablo & goals from his No.9, central-midfield & CBs. Farke team has none of those attributes.

I said it a few weeks back that put Pablo in this side instead of Rutter and we'd have been promoted. Rutter has the potential to be anything, or nothing, but Pablo was a difference maker at crucial times.

[weasel]

But that's literally what a Championship squad is.

Bielsa had a limited squad, Mckenna had a limited squad.

The manager is meant to make the difference.

Farke doesn't.

Big difference with McKenna is that he took charge of Ipswich in December 2021. This meant he had a few months to assess what he had, who he wanted, where he wanted to improve etc. This then meant he had the summer of 2022 to get his squad how he wanted it. So his squad may be limited in terms of player values but they were the players he wanted. He then also had last summer to re-assess having seen all his players for a year. As such the Ipswich side contains the players he wants. They may not be wonderful players but they are suited to what he wants. So it may be that a player playing full back for him maybe score 72 out of 100 based on what McKenna would ideally want (i.e. if he was Pep) but that may be better than having to make do with the player that was already at the club when McKenna joined.

Farke may have some great individual talent but they may not fit his team. Like how PJ didn't fit Bielsa's team despite being a decent defencer. Or how Nketiah didn't fit Bielsa's team etc. So if Farke stays, and I hope he does, he will hopefully get to shape the team how he wants rather than scrambling to sign whatever was available after we'd seen who was going and who was staying.

And Bielsa was a genius. Farke is not at his level but it doesn't mean he isn't a decent manager.

[BillyBremner]

Did we score a goal from a corner this season?

[Barlow Boy]

How was being there Kev?

A fantastic occasion, loved everything outside the stadium, the fan zones etc. 4 pints for £25 inside the stadium, wasn’t as big a rip off as I thought it was going to be either.

[JoeDenver]

Ok give me names

I voted for the third option, simply because he’s not one of the top 3 managers in next year’s Championship…he’s like 4th-5th best of that lot, imho. That’s a fair assessment of Farke, which puts him as about the 7th-8th best coach on the season. You have to account for the fact that we had the first or second best lineup in the league and finished 3rd.

[The Subhuman]

Bielsa had experienced campaigners, a set-piece specialist in Pablo & goals from his No.9, central-midfield & CBs. Farke team has none of those attributes.

Farke does have those attributes ... To start with Paddy lead the line for both. Creswell is a goal scoring CB. Bamford/Rodon/Ampadu/Piroe/Cooper are all experienced campaigners... As was the unused Roberts, no one forced Farke to use Gray as much as he did, No one forced him to start Ampadu in defence and not have the experienced Cooper as CB next to Rodon.

Farke didn't let our best dead ball player in Firpo take many FK's and corners ... when he did they were very dangerous. Roberts another good corner taker.

[hector]

.What pissed me off, is the non use of certain players, yet putting them on the bench every week. Some have spent a whole season with hardly kicking a ball in anger.....

[White Riot]

.What pissed me off, is the non use of certain players, yet putting them on the bench every week. Some have spent a whole season with hardly kicking a ball in anger.....

Exactly: Spence, Anthony, Cresswell, Joseph, Roberts, etc.

That's a lot of talent, at least for this level, that you're ignoring. Meanwhile the first team is rolling out every few days and not getting a rest.

Farke has not managed our squad effectively.

The two Norwich performances recently were good, but bear in mind Norwich were as bad as WBA in those semis, and Angus Gunn gave us a proper leg up.

But when Farke needed to halt that slump during the run in, and produce a winning performance today he couldn't manage it.

He can go for me. I think he had the squad to get us promoted but couldn't manage it.

The 90 points from 46 matches is good, but it wasn't enough. The top four getting so many points, is that not indicative of the lack of quality opposition in this division?

It's clear to me that the gap between the EPL and the EFL is getting wider, and Ipswich was a one off. You'd expect that the three coming down have a big advantage over the Championship teams.

[White Riot]

Did we score a goal from a corner this season?

Yes, I think Byram, and or Struijk got one. But that would be about it.

[Cjay]

Bielsa had experienced campaigners, a set-piece specialist in Pablo & goals from his No.9, central-midfield & CBs. Farke team has none of those attributes.

But then look at the manager.

Mentioned before but Norwich rarely scored set pieces, couldn't defend them.

At some point don't we look at the manager? He has been given the one of the largest budgets in Championship history to get the average total for 2nd over the last 10 years (89.9)

The average, not the special total that its made out.

The benchmark for automatic has always been 2ppg, not 90 points 2 ppg.

If you only achieve the average for 2nd over 10 years you always run the risk someone may get more.

[Cjay]

Have you never heard of expressions along the lines of seasoned championship pro? There are plenty that aren't quite good enough for the prem but great in the championship.

I said it before the match we needed a couple from Gnonto, Summerville and Rutter to perform really well and then the rest of our team to simply be steady. The rest of our team was steady, we conceded just the 1 goal which is our best return v Southampton this season but simply offered little threat from our big 3.

Would be the same for LIverpool, would they have won many matches if Salah, Mane and Firmino all played sh*t in the same match? The coach/manager can come up with tactics etc but if players don't pay as well as they can, especially when they are the 'difference makers' then the team is going to struggle.

Man U won loads of titles because 2 or 3 players, the difference makers, performed and the rest got their 7s and 8s. Schmeichel makes the saves and then a Cantona or Van Persie, Beckham or a Giggs etc does something wonderful.

Our big game players went missing.

Maybe so but as Sky pointed out the tactics were hardly helpful.

They were so narrow, coming into the centre of the pitch when all the space is out wide.

Players don't cross the ball.

The buildup is so slow and safe that it is imo directly impeding for the players.

What was Rutter meant to do receiving the ball centrally with 2 or 3 players around him and Summerville and Gnonto within spitting distance?

It is anti-Bielsaball.

A bad work man blames his tools, that is Farke.

We are a pretty poorly coached team and you can see it when we play teams like Southampton, the fluency and pre prepared passing moves and knowing where to pass and where to move is levels above us.

That isn't player related that is coaching.

[Cjay]

Big difference with McKenna is that he took charge of Ipswich in December 2021. This meant he had a few months to assess what he had, who he wanted, where he wanted to improve etc. This then meant he had the summer of 2022 to get his squad how he wanted it. So his squad may be limited in terms of player values but they were the players he wanted. He then also had last summer to re-assess having seen all his players for a year. As such the Ipswich side contains the players he wants. They may not be wonderful players but they are suited to what he wants. So it may be that a player playing full back for him maybe score 72 out of 100 based on what McKenna would ideally want (i.e. if he was Pep) but that may be better than having to make do with the player that was already at the club when McKenna joined.

Farke may have some great individual talent but they may not fit his team. Like how PJ didn't fit Bielsa's team despite being a decent defencer. Or how Nketiah didn't fit Bielsa's team etc. So if Farke stays, and I hope he does, he will hopefully get to shape the team how he wants rather than scrambling to sign whatever was available after we'd seen who was going and who was staying.

And Bielsa was a genius. Farke is not at his level but it doesn't mean he isn't a decent manager.

Farke has had success once with 1 Group of players.

Those 3 signings made 2nd season saved his career, Pukki, Buendia and Krul.

Our summer will be much more hectic.

Personally I think a fresh start is best, he had his shot, he got more backing than any other Championship manager we had and as Phil said in his article today whilst Promotion wasn't spelt out Farke practically guaranteed it in his interview.

He isn't the manager he thinks he is and his excuse given press conferences recently make me think like many before him the job is too big.

When the 49ers told Radz to get "the best manager he cpuld" they ended up with a big name manager with big game experience.

It takes a certain type to handle it here and Farke like many before him couldn't cope when the pressure was on (at the point in the season he said himself is when it mattered)

It would be risking a lot given our perilous financial position to back a failed horse which is what Farke is now.

Failure 1st season is really bad, failure next season could be catastrophic.

Its a big call to make.

And I think at the very least

1) the board ask Farke some very tough questions about what went wrong last 8 games. He can't be allowed to just blame the 1st 2 months of the season that is deflection. They ask him what HE did wrong? What HE will do differently? If he isn't willing to accept his many errors then he goes.

2) the board do sound out replacements, they see what is out there.

[Jaydog]

Tough questions.
Ask him do his windows comply with BS Standard 3261

[1964white]

Too shattered to reply now.

Only 30 minutes from home

[andrewjohnsmith]

Thanks, We'll do ok next season with him, likely the playoff lottery again. I just don't think he'll get us auto promoted.... The teams coming down aren't great so that helps. Burnley likely to lose their talisman manager, SU are a mess and Luton will be a wild card

All 3 relegated teams are weaker than last season's relegated teams. I don't think we'll have 4 dominant teams in the championship.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Rodon and Ampadu have done well at the back but we have missed the option of Ampadu in midfield. Having Cresswell as an option would have allowed us to push Ampadu forward more often, secure things in midfield.

Often we've needed something different up front. Gelhardt and Joseph are the options but you can't throw them in after 5/10 minutes here or there. That said, the only time Joseph did start, he impressed!

We've seen several players do a decent job at championship level: Cresswell, Gelhardt, Anthony. Several of our loans departed this season and showed themselves to be decent championship players.

It seems like Farke has a low level of trust beyond his core group.

[Irish Ian]

Farke could walk away to a better job and we would then be in the s**t.

If he hadnt done so well we wouldnt be so disappointed by now.

Over the season he got more right than wrong

Imo