Play Off Final - Post Match Discussion

[Cjay]

There was a point in the first half when Summerville got the ball/ I should have freeze framed. It seemed like every Southampton player was in the frame, and between Summerville and the goal. I think Rutter got more room in the middle. But he did very little and was off with his passes a few times. Gnonto got more space too. Looked lively. But had very little end product.

They've played us perfectly twice before today was thrice.

Martin knows exactly how to shut Farke down, and he isn't the first who've made our attack despite its talent look very clueless.

It's not a coincidence that Dan James made the most impact because he is a traditional winger, get down the line (where the space is) and cross.

If you have a narrow attack you better be extremely well coached and able to do short passing triangles, we aren't.

Or you have to have special players able to beat 2 or 3 players.

One relies on coaching one relies on talent, think we all know which has been our most used weapon this season of those

[Cjay]

You and I don't always agree....Ah Hem!

But we agree on this. And I brought it up not too long ago that under Farke we attack much like we did under Marsh. It's very narrow with inverted wingers. (Or Winger). The biggest difference in the two systems is the pressing. Or lack thereof under Farke. But it's still about as far away from Bielsa's system as we can get...

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But I agree they are very similar in many ways.

If anything Marsch's system was far to gung-ho.

Farke has gone massively the other way to the point it's sleep inducing and asks for far too much miracles from individuals

[andrewjohnsmith]

It is of course easy to judge Farke's tactics given we have no idea of how well other tactics would have worked with this group of players. It is easy to say play faster etc but then we likely give the ball away a lot more and leave ourselves open - a bit like it can be said of the Bielsa side when things went wrong and also under Marsch albeit that was more of a hot potato type tactic than us particularly intending to pass at speed.

A lot of criticism of Farke previously has been about how poor his teams were defensively. Well to me it seems like our slow build up play is linked to us being tighter at the back, being in better shape when we lose the ball etc and even Farke's biggest critics, naming no names, can surey agree that for the majority of the season we have looked pretty secure dfensively.

So keeping the shape and playing slowly helps us defensively and for me that is a good thing. Yes I'd like faster attacking play but for the most part this way of playing has worked. It does rely on the forward players individual brilliance a lot but when you give license to 3 players (2 wide players and the 10) to try the individual stuff then you are hoping at least 1 has a good game and then it has a chance of getting you the win, even today a moment of brilliance and we are back in the game.

What we really seem to lack is someone like Pablo to be able to play those slide rule passes that unlock a defence. If we have one of those then it negates any real need to change from the tactics we have or the tempo we play at when attacking. Pass the ball around, create space and then have it fall to the creative player who has all day to play the killer pass and we are a much more potent side, sadly we don't have anyone capable of that in the side. Maybe if we'd got that german fella (the one who had to get a plane home) then wedon't have that problem and maybe if we get someone who can do that this summer then we are suddenly a much better side.

For me Farke's tactics worked pretty well. It isn't like Messlier outperfromed his xg and kept us is loads of games. It isn't like our strikers overperformed on their xg - which was the case for his Norwich sides. Yes I'd like to see a bit more dynamism at times up front, someone shooting from distance or crosses but maybe we simply don't have the players for that. If our crosses are of the same standard as our set piece delivery then is there much point putting in more crosses? If our long range shooting is of the standard of our shooting from distance at free kicks then is there much point shooting if ours odds are something like 1 in 100 of scoring?

So just maybe Farke's tactics actually got more out of these players than other tactics would. Maybe Farke overperformed by some distance because of his tactics. It is easy to say that by doing x instead of y we'd be better but just maybe doing x would have been far worse.

90 points, 3rd in the league, decent defensively and a fair amount of goals scored isn't exactly terrible. Repeat the points total next season and we could be champions.

I agree with Farke's tactics for the most part. We lost it on the two ends of the season. If we'd got our squad in order a couple of weeks early, we probably pick up that 6 point gap to Ipswich in the first 2 months of the season. At the end of the season I think it came down to inexperience. We're a very young squad. It's easy to find 6 points, probably 9 that we dropped and would have passed Ipswich.

The individual brilliance of Summerville, Rutter, Gnonto, James did work overall. But you're right to mention Pablo. The attacking players we have are great when they have space to play. But don't know how to unlock tricky defences. Rutter foes to an extent. He's got the tricks. But he needs a bit more experience to make that final pass or actually put the ball in the net.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Completely agree. We went back to slow, possession-based Marsh-ball in this contest. Gruev was so afraid to play a forward progressive pass in this contest. Kamara was so-so, but thought Gruev really cowered in this one. Loved seeing Rodon’s frustration with him and barreled forward (and nearly scored). That will and desire was missing from him. We lacked Rodon’s will and determination all over the pitch (until James came on)…

In the second half of the season we saw Rodon do that a few times. And it often seemed to come from a state of anger. It's disappointing that our midfielders weren't willing to do it. Often Ampadu would do it from center back. We probably needed a replacement for Strujik to allow Ampadu to play in midfield.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Looking back over the season as a whole, i think Farke has done a great job. He inherited a real mess with all the loan contracts in place, and this undoubtably impacted the first ten games or so. After this however the team gelled well and with just a few games to go were at the top of the table. It was at this point i think some of the key players saw the reality of promotion and bottled it, Farke cant be held responsible for that.
I do think there were some areas that cost us, namely lack of goals coming from midfield and set pieces. In recent games including todays play off final, there is a continued tendency to pass back and across. When Rodon made his charge goalwards, and James tried shooting from distance we immediately looked much more dangerous. Some players, particularly Kamara seem very reluctant to shoot.
The players that remain will hopefully learn from this and be stronger next season, i just hope we dont lose too many of our best players to pay off our debt.

I just made the same point before reading your post. The opening was not ideal and we were young and inexperienced and bottled to run in.

[The Subhuman]

Piroe was very disappointing today. Look at Armstrong's movement off the ball. The difference was night and day. There's quality in Piroe. He's a fantastic finisher and has the goal history to prove it. But I really don't know how we get the best out of him. Maybe Farke's summer rebuild will benefit Piroe.

He's a good finisher from midfield, he relies on there being a target man ahead of him. But he's not a natural predator, at least not yet, he doesn't make those runs a striker like Joseph does..

[weasel]

There was a point in the first half when Summerville got the ball/ I should have freeze framed. It seemed like every Southampton player was in the frame, and between Summerville and the goal. I think Rutter got more room in the middle. But he did very little and was off with his passes a few times. Gnonto got more space too. Looked lively. But had very little end product.

That is where a player's footballing intelligence needs to shine. If loads of opposition players are doing that then there should be gaps elsewhere. Also the ability to play a good pass rather than always doing the same thing or trying a pass when it is the only option left and the player has not really set up to pass.

[The Subhuman]

Leeds were the best team in division from game 5 to when we imploded.. not 10 games, 5 games and by a clear margin of around 3 points.

[The Subhuman]

We beat both the top 2 home and away. I think, on everyone's best day, we were the best team in the league. We dropped points in too many easy games. All we needed to do was win our last 2 home games and we'd be up.

Welcome to the forum.

He's taking the piss out of us ...he's not a Leeds fan

[Cjay]

That is where a player's footballing intelligence needs to shine. If loads of opposition players are doing that then there should be gaps elsewhere. Also the ability to play a good pass rather than always doing the same thing or trying a pass when it is the only option left and the player has not really set up to pass.

Maybe the players are stifled by the system?

The slow build up by its very design makes it easy to double up on players.

Encouraging the right winger to come inside makes it even more congested.

The right back is then not allowed to get forward much despite that being where the space is.

Teams that have had success against us this season have played a back 3, it's not a coincidence it always works because it crowds the centre of the pitch which is where Farke wants to attack.

A midfield runner to give us numbers like Smallbone or Downes did? Farke doesn't allow that.

The system stifles the creativity by its very design and the secret to it has been out for a while.

[JoeDenver]

In the second half of the season we saw Rodon do that a few times. And it often seemed to come from a state of anger. It's disappointing that our midfielders weren't willing to do it. Often Ampadu would do it from center back. We probably needed a replacement for Strujik to allow Ampadu to play in midfield.

The bite and guile have been consistently lacking. Gruev and Kamara, for me, are very nice CM backups for upper Championship to lower premier league level, but relying on them consistently has been proven out. Amps is a touch of class above them. Struijk is becoming as reliable as Forshaw, Bamford, and Byram. Consistently out about half the season. Might need about 4 new CBs for next season if he’s the lone returnee.

[weasel]

He's a good finisher from midfield, he relies on there being a target man ahead of him. But he's not a natural predator, at least not yet, he doesn't make those runs a striker like Joseph does..

He likes to find pockets of space to get the ball andhave time to shoot. More of a late arriver into the box. Sort of like how in the past players like David Platt, Frank Lampard etc would arrive late, not picked up and score - but they couldn't play as strikers.

I do think Piroe can play as an out and out striker and would thrive with intelligent players around him who could play the pass to him at the right time.

[weasel]

Maybe the players are stifled by the system?

The slow build up by its very design makes it easy to double up on players.

Encouraging the right winger to come inside makes it even more congested.

The right back is then not allowed to get forward much despite that being where the space is.

Teams that have had success against us this season have played a back 3, it's not a coincidence it always works because it crowds the centre of the pitch which is where Farke wants to attack.

A midfield runner to give us numbers like Smallbone or Downes did? Farke doesn't allow that.

The system stifles the creativity by its very design and the secret to it has been out for a while.

I think the players can be stifled by the system but equally they are very individualistic. I think different players make the system work better. A bit like how Kompany might do better with his way of playing with Bayern Munich than the players he had at Burnley.

I do think we need more in midfield. I wonder if the lad that we were after, was it Amari, might have been that player for us.

[The Subhuman]

He likes to find pockets of space to get the ball andhave time to shoot. More of a late arriver into the box. Sort of like how in the past players like David Platt, Frank Lampard etc would arrive late, not picked up and score - but they couldn't play as strikers.

I do think Piroe can play as an out and out striker and would thrive with intelligent players around him who could play the pass to him at the right time.

Don't think he has the awareness or short area burst to play lone striker. If we lose Cry and Willy then Geo becomes a winger by default with James (think they're both here next season.) That allows us to say play Piroe as the 10 with the excellent Joseph as the 9.

[Tom the Cat]

I may be wrong (but I doubt it) but leaving aside the meaningless Charity Shield games we've had two cup finals and three play-off finals at Wembley without scoring a goal. The last goal we scored in a meaningful match was Allan Clarke's header against Arsenal in the Cup Final 52 years ago !!!
Today Piroe was totally ineffective and yet it took DF until eight minutes from the end to put Joseph on - in that time he created an excellent chance but shock/horror there was no one in the box to tap it in. James should have been on for Gnonto immediately after half time - he made a huge difference when he did come on an was desperately unlucky not to score.

[Carrick Dave]

We're NOT good in the air, so why were most of the crosses high. We're much better when playing ball to feet.

Part of our problem today was playing the ball to feet, instead of into space a player is running into. To receive the ball to feet you need to be facing the player passing to you, often back to goal in our case, and how do you then progress it quickly? A risky flick, otherwise you hold it up and generally pass it back where it came, or at best move it sideways.

Southampton passed the ball forward with purpose at every opportunity, finding players running into space - they were much more positive without risking being left open at the back.

Downes and Smallbone played the sort of probing layoffs that Kamara and Gruev largely did not, and Harwood-Bellis carried it out of defence to tie up our midfield whenever he felt like it. Just like in the last game of the season, in fact.

The risk-averse sideways passing did my head in today. Who dares wins?

[Cjay]

I think the players can be stifled by the system but equally they are very individualistic. I think different players make the system work better. A bit like how Kompany might do better with his way of playing with Bayern Munich than the players he had at Burnley.

I do think we need more in midfield. I wonder if the lad that we were after, was it Amari, might have been that player for us.

Doesn't a system that stifles players encourage individualistic play?

We aren't a slick passing team like Southampton for example, we rarely put together pretty moves with lovely 1 touch passing. Farke actively encourages slow, safe build up play whereas Southampton are brave and well coached.

Pass it to Georgie or Jimmy and then hope, they have no midfield runners, the pitch by design of the tactics is extremely congested, they aren't allowed to play risky passes to try and open up the play.

So what other alternatives are there for them than head down and run?

I've said all along and I stand by it, I think Buendia made Farke and his system tick.

A lightening in a bottle moment.

To me the whole system is a contradiction and is frankly boring.

Maybe Amiri makes a difference but weren't many on here saying we had a great January?

[Cjay]

Part of our problem today was playing the ball to feet, instead of into space a player is running into. To receive the ball to feet you need to be facing the player passing to you, often back to goal in our case, and how do you then progress it quickly? A risky flick, otherwise you hold it up and generally pass it back where it came, or at best move it sideways.

Southampton passed the ball forward with purpose at every opportunity, finding players running into space - they were much more positive without risking being left open at the back.

Downes and Smallbone played the sort of probing layoffs that Kamara and Gruev largely did not, and Harwood-Bellis carried it out of defence to tie up our midfield whenever he felt like it. Just like in the last game of the season, in fact.

The risk-averse sideways passing did my head in today. Who dares wins?

Someone on Waccoe made a huge post about this out of frustration few weeks ago.

A really in depth post .

I've deleted it but talked with another member about it so will send my breakdown of his post


He said what he's noticed is our players seem to be coached to play a very basic safety first style.

But the part that bothers him most is the way we play passes and the way our players receive passes.

The way we do it makes it very difficult to ever play quickly which we don't do.

We haven't really got fast passing moves etc it's very slow.

So what he said is if you watch our players always pass to where the teammate is. Not what top teams do the ones who play the fastest attacking football.

Where the teammate will be next?

So basically it's a pass at a player who has to stand still receive the ball face on, then take a touch, then turn look forward and see where he can pass.

And he said if you watch they all do it, bar the odd exception every pass is gunned at a player.

It's very rare a player is given a pass infront of him to run onto.

It's the safest way to pass, but it's also the most slow and therefore very difficult to progress.

And he said the fact they all do it means it's deliberate and coached.

If 1 or 2 did it then it's possible just a player trait, but they all do it.

[whiteswan]

True .. if done constructively, and you need to be a good man manager to know who, where and how.

In any walk of life.....I Know, believe me. Who, where and how. So very yes.

[whiteswan]

1000 matches on next season, so sky will probably move all 46 games

We are their cash cow