The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Tuesday 16th April) - Do Leeds United have a Plan B?

[weasel]

But every team has to "cobble together" at this level.

Like I said though Saints, Leicester and Ipswich ahd far more cohesive sides - and they are the only 3 sides to be anywhere near us league position wise. Yes Saints and Leicester lost some important players but not players leaving en masse like ours did and Farke being handicapped by not being able to plan properly until players left as you don't buy a replacement until the player you are replacing has gone.

Based on pedigree you'd be hard pushed to find a stronger squad in the league.

Not so much pedigree as a mixture of pedigree and potential. Rutter bags of potential but I'd rather have a 35 year old Pablo in his position if I was looking at a side solely to get promoted. Most of our players have sketchy pedigree and I don't think you'd have taken any of our regular starting line-up and said they would be premier league first team definite starters for any premier league club.

Made the point before, look at what Burnley and Sheffield United had last season.

You say "a side more suited to how Farke wants to play".

Shouldn't a manager with the level of talent in this squad have the tactical knowledge and flexibility to adapt his tactics to make this talented group for this level better?

Isn't that his job? Rather than needing a squad perfect for his style?

Kompany was making do with 37 year old Ashley Barnes as his main striker last season and got over 100 points, he made it work.

But Farke has made it work - and to some degree having a player like Barnes is a better fit at this level than a Rutter. Barnes is physical, knows what to expect, puts himself about a bit etc - a typical championship footballer. Farke has adapted his tactics to get a decent return from the squad but that doesn't mean he is able to play the way that he might see as the best way of getting out of the division.

I don't think his style gets the best out of this squad anyway.

But it bothers me more now that we are saying he needs the perfect squad to make it work.

That to me should never be the case with a squad superior to basically the whole division.

He should adapt his tactics to get the best out of this squad, but he doesn't.

Is that because it's all he knows? 1 style that's worked with 1 group of players?

Same thing really. At Norwich he did nothing in his first season but it gave him chance to work out who fitted into his preferred way of playing and he was then able to improve it dramatically. He hasn't had that luxury at Leeds. So like I have said previously a 'weaker' side next season might be a better side. We have seen previously with the likes of PSG that simply having the best players doesn't make you automatically have the best team.

I also find it odd how DF doesn't get the criticism Marsch did for the narrowness of the style? Both wingers often come inside just like Marsch but only 1 full back (left) is given the freedom to get forward making the entire attack one sided.

Yet it's never criticised.

The main difference is that anyone could see through Marsch's chaos tactics. Our wingers have license to roam, they can be hugging the touchline and they can come inside, this stretches te opposition rather than just saying everyone play narrow.

I think DF is very fortunate he came in after a poor period and unpopular managers, it's given him much more leeway than he would have got had a he replaced a popular manager.

Yes he is fortunate in that sense but it doesn't alter the fact he has done a decent job.

[weasel]

Agree with those points generally.
If we totally wimped out and staggered to 1 point from our last six I’m guessing plenty of people on here might think mmmm not sure now.
So it’s all hypothetical atm.
Only thing on point 3 is be very careful what you wish for. We’re not getting an Iraola or Emery are we so who exactly. No thanks. I’ll stick with Farke for defo but if we wimp out as above…..

It might be that we just have nothing left in the tank. From just a few weeks into the season we have almost been having to win every match because of the gap. We have been playing at 100% every match and the pressure of it whereas Leicester and Ipswich were so far ahead they knew that a draw or loss wasn't the same disaster that it would have been to us. I was concerned that we got to the front too soon and it was almost the case that you think the job is done when clearly it wasn't. Southampton had the same, they had that 25 match unbeaten run, got into a position where they looked nailed on for automatic promotion and then fell away.

Next season and if the championship is more normal then a team bobbing along at 2 points a match is going to be up there not chasing.

[Jaydog]

It might be that we just have nothing left in the tank. From just a few weeks into the season we have almost been having to win every match because of the gap. We have been playing at 100% every match and the pressure of it whereas Leicester and Ipswich were so far ahead they knew that a draw or loss wasn't the same disaster that it would have been to us. I was concerned that we got to the front too soon and it was almost the case that you think the job is done when clearly it wasn't. Southampton had the same, they had that 25 match unbeaten run, got into a position where they looked nailed on for automatic promotion and then fell away.

Next season and if the championship is more normal then a team bobbing along at 2 points a match is going to be up there not chasing.

Agree with that especially Southampton whose fans are probably as we speak changing their minds about their boss. But I was merely stirring the pot tbh.
I’m suggesting hypothetically that the disappointment that would be felt if we were awful and only gained 1 point from six then a lot of fans would turn. Tis the way in football.

[Kennyb41]

Can't answer that until we see . .

1) how this season finishes, a damp squib or a close fought thing.

2) How we perform in those games.

3) What sort of options we may have as a replacement.

Someone said on another forum something I kinda agree with though.

Given the options available (assuming we continue with our narrow shortlist of Championship or English football experience) then I'd rather keep Farke in the Championship should that happen rather than have him in the Premier League if promoted.

If we widened our gaze that's a different matter but if not the above paragraph sums it up.

Close fought thing ? There's 3 games to go, 2pts separating the top 3, did you wish for 1 ? And we gave them abart a 15pt start

What's the feckin weather like on Mars ? Here, have one of these emoji's tha seems to like That show me thas steam comin out tha ears.

[Kennyb41]

If the aim isn't promotion this season and by definition failure to achieve it means DF failed in his primary objective then the club must be happy to consolidate? That's the implication.

Every feckin club, every feckin player, every feckin coach, every feckin owner, all feckin fans......guess what their objective is from the first game in August brainbox ?

Have ya guessed ? YES ! They aim to finish as low as they can !

[Cjay]

Like I said though Saints, Leicester and Ipswich ahd far more cohesive sides - and they are the only 3 sides to be anywhere near us league position wise. Yes Saints and Leicester lost some important players but not players leaving en masse like ours did and Farke being handicapped by not being able to plan properly until players left as you don't buy a replacement until the player you are replacing has gone.


That isn't the case though, it's something we've adopted as a woah is us Leeds fans but Southampton and Leicester lost loads of players themselves.

Lavia, Ward-Prowse, Livramento, Salisu, Alcaraz, Perraud, Bella-Kotchap, Lyanco, Elyounoussi, Mainland- Niles, thats 7 of the 11 most used players last season.

And even down to the last day they expected more to go, Sulemana, Adams, Walker-Peters, they were surprised they didn't according to the Southampton Phil.

Leicester were the same, lost a ton of players and had uncertainty right up to the last day regarding people like Ndidi, Ricardo etc.

The only unique aspect which Farke handled well tbf was Gnonto and Sinisterra but our summer being much less certain than our rivals isn't the case, we just didn't read about it every week.

Takeover was difficult? Absolutely, but as Phil told us they were talking to Farke and planning well in advance of him being appointed.


Not so much pedigree as a mixture of pedigree and potential. Rutter bags of potential but I'd rather have a 35 year old Pablo in his position if I was looking at a side solely to get promoted. Most of our players have sketchy pedigree and I don't think you'd have taken any of our regular starting line-up and said they would be premier league first team definite starters for any premier league club.

Think that's being unfair on Georgie tbh, he's got far more assists than Pablo managed, he's done very well despite clearly being injured a lot of the time. And where would we be without his running and ability to craft from deep? That Bielsa side had much more coaching, movement and rehearsed patterns of play. Pablo knew where to pass and when because it had been trained into them, this Farke side hasn't any of that (hence why we never get those lovely team goal posts from the official site anymore). I think Pablo would really struggle in this side tbh, without the runs of Klich or the well coached passing moves. This side is much more reliant on Rutter and his dribbling to craft chances than Bielsa side was on Pablo. If Pablo was here now in exactly the role Rutter plays he'd never cope, he isn't going to be running past 3 4 players. And then you are down to "well Farke would adapt" but no evidence of that here so thats speculation.

But Farke has made it work - and to some degree having a player like Barnes is a better fit at this level than a Rutter. Barnes is physical, knows what to expect, puts himself about a bit etc - a typical championship footballer. Farke has adapted his tactics to get a decent return from the squad but that doesn't mean he is able to play the way that he might see as the best way of getting out of the division.


Again with the Rutter disrespect, Ashley Barnes is no more physical than Georgie, Georgie is the most fouled player in the league. You can't imagine Barnes picking the ball up in his own half holding off 2 or 3 players and passing to Summerville. That is what he's been asked to do all season by Farke.

Unless promoted he hasn't made anything work.

It is the same way, 1 full back pushes on less, the right winger comes narrow to create overloads centrally, football is safety conscious and short with very few long balls or crosses.

It's exactly the same way as Norwich, hence why the numbers all tally the same. He's not adapted at all.

Even the criticisms are the same, link on the other forum of Mönchengladbach fans, exactly the same.

Uses the squad poorly, doesn't make subs in a timely fashion and when he eventually does its usually ineffective.
No designed patterns of play and overly reliant on talented attackers to create in the final 3rd.

Football is dull and safety conscious with too much focus on meaningless possession.

This is his style according to a totally different fanbase.

You see more than most tactically, can you honestly say that is wrong?




Same thing really. At Norwich he did nothing in his first season but it gave him chance to work out who fitted into his preferred way of playing and he was then able to improve it dramatically. He hasn't had that luxury at Leeds. So like I have said previously a 'weaker' side next season might be a better side. We have seen previously with the likes of PSG that simply having the best players doesn't make you automatically have the best team.


Many of that team were there 1st season, Hernandez, Lewis, Aarons, Hanley, Tettey, Steipermann, Zimmerman, Cantwell, McClean, Vrancic, Godfrey, Klose, Pinto, Trybull, Leitner.

So what changed 2nd season? Because a cynic may suggest Krul, Buendia and Pukki arriving since the difference was so vast?


The main difference is that anyone could see through Marsch's chaos tactics. Our wingers have license to roam, they can be hugging the touchline and they can come inside, this stretches te opposition rather than just saying everyone play narrow.


They don't play wide, Gnonto comes central more often than not and Summerville tucks in for Firpo to overlap. We condense the space rather strangely and ignore the huge space generally on the right as the right back isn't allowed to push on much.

We also make it even more difficult by focusing our passes more than any other team down 1 side, I've never seen that before. They weren't like that at Norwich but then Buendia was allowed to drift all over the pitch, Summerville can't.

We certainly don't use the full width of the pitch though, at best it's an ever so slight more width than Marsch but by and large all our attacks are within the width of the box just the same. As you said yourself we don't cross the ball, it's all congested and narrow and lopsided with the right side where the space actually is generally ignored.



Yes he is fortunate in that sense but it doesn't alter the fact he has done a decent job.

I'd say a 6 myself, that's my default start score on all my ratings.

[Kennyb41]

You made a post implying he had a poor squad or nothing special.

I countered.

I'm no troll

Fortunately for you I've never ran to anyone Kenneth

Fortunately ? wtf ya on abart ?

What's the feckin frequency.

[Kennyb41]

The trouble with that is that it is viewing every player at their best and that is something that we rarely saw from them,

Messlier, our number 1 due mainly to lack of competition, who's confidence was so shot that he was replaced by Robles who instantly looked an improvement. many fans saw Darlow coming in as a replacement for Messlier and most fans would have taken £5m if a club offered it for Messlier. For me I would still say he is full of potential but far from the finished article, even in this division.

Gray, like you say a great talent but totally unporven, especially at right back, and has been learning on the job and has been rinsed a few times such as by Clarke and the guy at Preston.

Rodon, yes got a big money move to Spurs but then deemed not good enough by them and farmed out on loan to France. A great spot by Farke who restored his confidence.

Struyjk has been in and out of the side but mainly has been in when others, mainly Cooper, have been injured. Another with a lot of potential, probably further along than Messlier, but still a work in progress.

Ampadu a player who has been farmed out by Chelsea to three lower end top flight teams who have all got relegated. Hardly the first name on any fan's wishlist this summer but a good spot by Farke who has allowed him to blossom. In my opinion a better DM than Tyler Adams and at a fraction of the cost.

Firpo and this is the classic case of viewing him at the top end of what he has done in his career. For the majority of his time at Leeds he has looked absolutely nothing like a 'Barcelona' player. That a freebie rightback was preferred to him earlier in the season says it all. Farke though has done exceptionally well to make the most of his best attributes. If a club would have offered us a couple of million then likely most fans would have taken it. Likely that he had a loan clause in his contract but it is telling that no club wanted him. Farke has restored his confidence and got him playing well.

Byram - a free signing who Farke has managed pretty well to get the best out of him. Again he could be looked at through rose tinted glasses as a former championship team of the year player and a proven premier league player but the reality is that Farke basically picked him up from the floor when not many other teams probably even looked at him.

and so it goes on. Farke has cobbled together a team based on what he had left. Restoring confidence, giving others a license to shine and work out their game and playing in a way that suits most, not all, of them.

Yes we have a squad that is the envy of others in this division. Nowhere near as settled as Leicester or Southampton's though and not the well oiled machine that Ipswich were. It has been the cobbling together and making the best out of the players, getting a team unity and playing a way of football that generally allows us to control games. Not the free flowing Bielsa style but a style that limits danger but also at time limits our attacking prowess whilst still making it so we dominate the amount of chances created.

I made the point earlier that we could lose a few of our 'star' players but have a side more suited to how Farke wants to play and more 'fit for purpose' in terms of getting out of the division. A side that wasn't made up of round and square pieces being fitted into triangular holes. Losing star players might see us bringing in players that suit Piroe more, that passto him more often and give him better passes. I'm sure that if this side had a Pablo Hernandez in it that Piroe would have thrived as Pablo would have been able to play Piroe the type of passes that he would thrive on instead of him getting balls played into him often seemingly as a last resort.

Please stop making sense, he doesn't get 'sense' and never sees the bigger picture.

Even though it's there in all it's glory above ^

Every single one of those players could've been shite, and he gives DF zero credit for any of them, but chooses to single out the failure in Piroe.

Fck me, you're dealing with a child ffs.

[Cjay]

Close fought thing ? There's 3 games to go, 2pts separating the top 3, did you wish for 1 ? And we gave them abart a 15pt start

What's the feckin weather like on Mars ? Here, have one of these emoji's tha seems to like That show me thas steam comin out tha ears.

The adults are talking.

Please be quiet

Shh

And that was a scenario for the future, not today.

Perfectly reasonable response as Jay said himself.

So drop the smartarse sarcasm

[Cjay]

Every feckin club, every feckin player, every feckin coach, every feckin owner, all feckin fans......guess what their objective is from the first game in August brainbox ?

Have ya guessed ? YES ! They aim to finish as low as they can !

You couldn't find an answer to say I'm wrong so resorted to waffle.

[Cjay]

Please stop making sense, he doesn't get 'sense' and never sees the bigger picture.

Even though it's there in all it's glory above ^

Every single one of those players could've been shite, and he gives DF zero credit for any of them, but chooses to single out the failure in Piroe.

Fck me, you're dealing with a child ffs.

Back to default of piggybacking off the posts of Daddy Weasel Kenneth.

Bless.

As I said shh now the adults are talking.

And actually I have given DF credit for his man management skills which is important for players maybe low on confidence so I do give him credit.

[Kennyb41]

Back to default of piggybacking off the posts of Daddy Weasel Kenneth.

Bless.

As I said shh now the adults are talking.

And actually I have given DF credit for his man management skills which is important for players maybe low on confidence so I do give him credit.

Piggybacking champ? I think you'll find it's my post you're both responding to on the players i listed that DF's done a remarkable job with.

So both of ya can get off my feckin back ya piggyback feckers

[Cjay]

Piggybacking champ? I think you'll find it's my post you're both responding to on the players i listed that DF's done a remarkable job with.

So both of ya can get off my feckin back ya piggyback feckers

Actually I responded to the op.

Had a chat with Swannie and Barlow then you came in and talked to me which i responded to.

Then Weasel responded to my post and started a new conversation and you responded to his post which was directed at me not you.

So tracing it back you are both piggybacking off my opening post.

So both of you need to get off MY back.

Then again much like Jimmy and Georgie and DF, I am used to carrying you both.

[Jaydog]

Used to love a piggyback but you look stupid doing it at 58

[weasel]

Used to love a piggyback but you look stupid doing it at 58

You'll be better at 69

[weasel]

Actually I responded to the op.

Had a chat with Swannie and Barlow then you came in and talked to me which i responded to.

Then Weasel responded to my post and started a new conversation and you responded to his post which was directed at me not you.

So tracing it back you are both piggybacking off my opening post.

So both of you need to get off MY back.

Then again much like Jimmy and Georgie and DF, I am used to carrying you both.

I'm riding you all the way to the finishing line, wherever it may be. Farke has his ostriches and you are my emu.

[The Subhuman]

What a f**king boring thread this has become ....

[mentalcase]

Can you all just wind it a bit please, especially kenny & cjay, it is getting boring and totally ruins the OP.
Of course it's a "debate" but we all know the score, we don't agree on everything and never will, it's getting out of hand.
Thank you.

[CUSSIE01]

Predicted Championship final table - Opta
Team % chance of winning title % of automatic promotion Predicted final points Current position & points
1. Leicester 62 84 95 2nd - 88 points
2. Ipswich 22 62 93 1st - 89 points
3. Leeds 13 43 92 3rd - 87 points
4. Southampton 3 11 89 4th - 84 points
Predicted points rounded down to nearest point
Final league table as predicted by Opta

[Overman]

So anyway, was there a 'plan b' in the end?

So far I've managed to fathom a piggy back on an Ostrich. That seems to be a pretty sound plan b.