Jesse Marsch

[mentalcase]

It is about finance at the top end. The concern is how poorly we have played against the teams around us.

It is indeed, and again, for the most part, that is down to the players ability, they cannot turn in a good performance 2 games in a row, we are that indifferent, there is a huge gulf in class between our players and not just the top teams, even west ham.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

It is ironic that people wanted Bielsa to play with pragmatism, rather than keeping with his philosophy and getting a hiding.

Talk of burn out and his tactics getting found out, square pegs in round holes, playing his favourites etc was a daily contribution and I certainly grouched about his selections.

So we now have a manager who will employ pragmatism and it is now turgid and boring etc.

There are two key reasons why we struggle to get the ball up the field IMO. Roca struggles to find a pass under pressure, very much like Klich and we don’t have a playmaker or a 9 who can hold the ball up. Bravery on the ball, thoughtful pass and move are very much about confidence and ability.

Forshaw is a very safe option in terms of ball retention and off loading. Like Faaip often highlights, I would also like to see Gyabi in the middle with Adams - but dropping senior professionals for a youngster is not an easy situation to manage.

We've been trying to find a playmaker no 10 for about 5 years now. It's starting to look now that Aaronson wont fit the bill. Since Sainz left how many players have been tried in that position ? Trying Harrison out as a no 10 shows desperation.

IMO recruitment is still a major factor holding the club back. Hopefully eventually with a new owner that might change - as Radz wont get rid of Orta now.

Would be happy to see Harrison sold in this window and the proceeds invested in maybe one permanent and a couple of loan signings.

[mentalcase]

The key player thats needed for me is the one that can hold the ball up, dictate play, slow things down when needed, we don't have anyone near that at the Leeds ,nobody, it's all rush rush rush, where's our next Tony Currie !!

[Cjay]

TBF to Roca and Aaronsson it is not unusual for players to need a season to bed in and find their feet in terms of getting to terms with the intensity of the EPL. They are both good players but being able to adapt is often the issue that either makes or breaks.

We can only hope.

Some players can't adapt to the league and are better suited to a slower more technical division.

It's why imo buying from La Liga is a risk, its known for its slower but more technical aspect.

Midfielders especially are risky.

More recent example is Saul Niguez who Chelsea had on loan.

A very gifted player, you don't play as long for a side as good as Atletico Madrid if you aren't very good.

Same role as Roca actually.

But he couldn't cope with the speed and physical aspect of the Premier League.

Every player we've signed from La Ligs has had similar struggles.

[Cjay]

Is this part of it?

[weasel]

Is this part of it?

It most certainly is. As a defender I can't tell you how demoralising it is when you see your strikers missing easy chances. As such Marsch has hit upon the genius idea of gifting the opposition good chances and if they miss a lot of them the rest of their team will become demoralised and that is when we capitalise. I

[Sockerist]

Trouble is it has been the opposition not taking their chances rather than us defending any better.

Sort of like if I walked past a house that was on fire and suddenly it started raining and itput the fire out. The house didn't stop burning because of anything I did.

Yes, but it's also the case that whether the opposition take their chances is a reflection on the quality of the defence and goalkeeper. A striker can miss an 'easy' chance if the goalkeeper positions himself well or the chance may not have been as easy as it appeared due to good positional work from defenders.

The plain fact is that we are not leaking goals as we did under Bielsa.

Totally agree Weasel, if Citee and the Toon has their shooting boots on we’d have zero points from the last two games and a lot worse goal average. Don’t get me wrong here I’m not putting any blame on the players, I just think that they are playing to a plan that goes something like:

Ok lads you know where your position is, get yourselves out there, let’s defend for our lives and hopefully the opposition balls it up and we nick a goal

Again, this is fair comment as far as it goes, but remember that if Newcastle had scored, that might have changed the calculus for Leeds, and we may then have scored in reply. We did have chances. The reality is that Newcastle didn't take their chances and that's on them and may also be a favourable reflection on our goalkeeper and defenders.

So to asnwer the question my concerns are that Marsch tactics, namely the Red Bull tactics, are seriously flawed. They can work to some extent - my feeling would be that they can work when the opposition is vastly inferior (so more likely to lose possession when pressed) or if the opposition insists on playing it out from the back and we get lucky (i.e. v Chelsea). I have made the point before that I am worried that teams we have had a bit of success against this season will be better prepared to exploit our weaknesses when they play us again. So tactically I hav huge concerns over JM. As a man manager I see both strengths and weaknesses. Initially he comes across well as someone who can motivate people and a good 'father' figure to the younger players. However the motivating effects can wear off very quickly if as a player you feel the tactics are wrong or if you find yourself marginalised such as we have seen with Klich. We also have the strange case of Gelhardt who seemed to have regressed considerably under Marsch.

So in summing up tactics are seriously flawed and I see no evidence that JM is capable of adapting them to make us any better and the only way we'd improve with the same tactics would be to buy significantly better players. The man-management and motivational will wear off quickly unless there is a continual revovling door of team selection whereby new players (signings or youngsters) are coming in and buying into it and the ones who aren't buying into it are no longer player.

I don't see him being successful and am gravely concerned for this season. Too many players seem to be regressing and I feel that is related to the tactics especially int he case of Roca and Harrison. Rodrigo's form is our main hope for staying up - or Bamford coming back fully fit and getting back to doing as well as he did 2 years ago.

For the purpose of this season, we don't need Jesse's tactics to work against the better opposition, just the lesser opposition, with the odd good day against the stronger teams, as with Chelsea. I agree Jesse seems tactically naive - I think he is too rigid tactically, too wedded to 'system football' almost as if it's his identity - but I think he will develop and mature with experience. I think he will do enough to keep us up and finish in a respectable position, maybe around 12th. The real question is whether he is the manager for the long term or turns out to be a stop gap. I would hope for the long term. I don't particularly care who the manager is, as long as he stays and has a 'Plan'.

It boils down to wich way is more likely to provide success. If you keep dominating matches and having 20+ shots to the opposition's 2 or 3 then you're far more likely to succeed than if you have the same group of players and try to park the bus and allow the opposition to have the 20+ shots and you have 2 or 3. Option B might work if you have a George Graham style defensive set-up and an Ian Wright type striker whereby your striker takes a high percentage of his chances and can create something out of nothing.

I don't have the impression that Jesse's way is shutting up shop out of habit. It seems we pragmatically took that approach against Newcastle after initially tiring, and my view on that is: all credit to Jesse.

Jesse's system is not anti-possession nor does it stymie passing. It's more about using passes to penetrate and pressure the opposition and either create the moves or chances, or turn them over with counter-pressing. I personally preferred the Bielsa style, but it is what it is.

There are two key reasons why we struggle to get the ball up the field IMO. Roca struggles to find a pass under pressure, very much like Klich and we don’t have a playmaker or a 9 who can hold the ball up. Bravery on the ball, thoughtful pass and move are very much about confidence and ability.

As I interpret Jesse's system, a traditional number 10 would not comport with the need for vertical penetration. The system doesn't call for somebody to slow things down and 'create', it calls for a combination of fluidity, long passes into the opponent's space, and an ability for players to press, tackle and dribble to turn over possession. Roca's role is that of a limited, deep-lying playmaker who can act as a link to distribute the ball around quickly or simply hoof it into areas where we can then counter-press.

I see no reason why Rodrigo can't 'hold the ball up'. He's a striker. That's what he does.

All our players often struggle to find a pass because they always seem to be under pressure, surrounded by opposition players. Few of our players ever seem to have any space to play in, to receive and control the ball and pass to a teammate in space, in unlike the opposition who always seem to have lots of space. This system is too narrow.

I agree and disagree. I think you are correct that under Jesse's system, close and medium-range passing becomes harder unless the players are top quality, but in another sense I disagree because Jesse's system reinterprets the concepts of 'passing' and 'width'. A pass is not a pass. Under Jesse's system, every kinesis is dynamic. A pass is an attack, a dynamic penetrating move in which action is transferred to the opponent's space. Sometimes this means simple passing along a vertical as part of a direct attacking style. Sometimes it means using the ball as a sort of 'bomb' planted in the opponent's half. Think of a Sunday league game in which a naive defender simply hoofs the ball forward for wont of options or skill, or due to lacking the mental equilibrium to simply look for options around him. Jesse's system does that same thing in certain situations, but with the more organised idea of counter-pressing, if possession cannot be retained. Therefore, loss of possession becomes a form of defence and attack combined - a paradox, but often effective.

Roca has played for Barca and Bayern who play systems more akin to how we used to play whereby a player would always have options to pass and players would know where they were meant to be. It is like Roca has been dropped into a team that simply chase the ball and have no clue positionally other than their supposed starting position - i.e. left winger play on the left wing. Roca is not suited to how we play and as such as the season has progressed and we have gotten further away from the way we used to play he has found it harder and harder. Not rocket science.

I agree with this, but I believe this is down to the average quality of most of the players around Roca, rather than anything Jesse (or indeed Roca) has done or not done.

There is a case to be made that, for the first couple of seasons, Jesse should have been more pragmatic with tactics and less wedded to the system until the club could start bringing in more quality players. (I mean no disrespect to the existing players).

[YorkshireSquare]

My view is that Marsch has a plan, a plan that works at the likes of New York Red Bulls or RB Leipzig when you have the best squad in the league but it doesn't work in the Premier League when you are competing against far better players. Given Marsch has learned management in a very rigid system and we have a coaching team with very little top flight real world experience I also doubt they have the ability to adapt and change things round.

We keep calling out our players, the midfield against Man City, the defence generally but all the issues are systemic rather than those of individual players. Unless we bring in really top class players I can only see us making the same errors time and time again.

[weasel]

Yes, but it's also the case that whether the opposition take their chances is a reflection on the quality of the defence and goalkeeper. A striker can miss an 'easy' chance if the goalkeeper positions himself well or the chance may not have been as easy as it appeared due to good positional work from defenders.

The plain fact is that we are not leaking goals as we did under Bielsa.

It is a bit of both - sometimes it is good goalkeeping, discliplined defending and sometimes just poor finishing. I would say in the 2 recent matches it was more a combination of good goalkeping and poor finishing. For me if a team defends well it means limiting the opposition to jus a handful of shots, none clear one one ones, and usually from outside the box. When we losy 7-0 to City last year I would say City had some good fortune with some of their finishes and I don't recall Messlier having a decent game. Against City this year he had a decent game.

For the purpose of this season, we don't need Jesse's tactics to work against the better opposition, just the lesser opposition, with the odd good day against the stronger teams, as with Chelsea. I agree Jesse seems tactically naive - I think he is too rigid tactically, too wedded to 'system football' almost as if it's his identity - but I think he will develop and mature with experience. I think he will do enough to keep us up and finish in a respectable position, maybe around 12th. The real question is whether he is the manager for the long term or turns out to be a stop gap. I would hope for the long term. I don't particularly care who the manager is, as long as he stays and has a 'Plan'.

I would agree with this and have mentioned it elsewhere and how I am concerned that the tactics have looked extremely flawed against 'weaker' teams. I don't think as a club we should be in a position of having a manager in charge that is having to learn so much, it should have been that we have a manager in charge that we feel has the tactical acumen to succeed. People scoff at the likes of Allardyce but he has kept so many weak teams up by getting more out of those teams than many other managers did. I certainly don't share your optimism that Marsch will get us finishing anywhere near 12th.

I don't have the impression that Jesse's way is shutting up shop out of habit. It seems we pragmatically took that approach against Newcastle after initially tiring, and my view on that is: all credit to Jesse.

I think JM realised that if we tried to play on the front foot we would likely get ripped apart and it is noticeable that when we conceded the first against City we had committed a lot of players forward and got caught out like we have been doing all season. It is a tricky one to judge, yes playing the 'pragmatic' way meant in theory we were less likely to get thumped but equally when you do that against Man City they have the quality to still score and they won more comfortably than the scorleine suggested. City are extremely comfortable playing out from the back but Newcastle I would have thought wouldn't have been so maybe us playing the high press might have given us a bit of success against Newcastle. With them missing their better strikers we may even have taken more than a point if we'd given it a go - equally we may have got thumped.

Under Jesse's system, close and medium-range passing becomes harder unless the players are top quality, but in another sense I disagree because Jesse's system reinterprets the concepts of 'passing' and 'width'. A pass is not a pass. Under Jesse's system, every kinesis is dynamic. A pass is an attack, a dynamic penetrating move in which action is transferred to the opponent's space. Sometimes this means simple passing along a vertical as part of a direct attacking style. Sometimes it means using the ball as a sort of 'bomb' planted in the opponent's half. Think of a Sunday league game in which a naive defender simply hoofs the ball forward for wont of options or skill, or due to lacking the mental equilibrium to simply look for options around him. Jesse's system does that same thing in certain situations, but with the more organised idea of counter-pressing, if possession cannot be retained. Therefore, loss of possession becomes a form of defence and attack combined - a paradox, but often effective.

The close range passing is harder I feel due to the chasing we do and the positions we are in when we win the ball. You can only improve player's touch and passing a little bit which is why I have previously made the point about Bielsa improving the movement of players so that the Leeds player in possession had more options and easier options. It is sort of the opposite now as when we win the ball it is normally a forced pass to get the ball forward. Your description of the Sunday League hoof is apt and it was something we did often under Bielsa - albeit it isn't a hoof but players knowing what area to put the ball into so that Bamford had a chance of winning the ball and players such as Harrison would also be getting into that area quickly. As a Sunday League defender I favourite outball was the ball knocked over the opposition defenders meaning they had to turn so it would give my attackers an advantage. Put a bit of backspin on the ball too so that it falls into an area where the opposition keeper can't simply come out and claim it. It certainly can be effective and much better than simply hoofing it.

There is a case to be made that, for the first couple of seasons, Jesse should have been more pragmatic with tactics and less wedded to the system until the club could start bringing in more quality players. (I mean no disrespect to the existing players).

The trouble is he has been brought in to try to succeed with his tactics. Last season we saw a mish mash of his and Bielsa's tactics and it wasn't particularly good. So this season Marsch has to manage to his strengths and that is with his tried and tested tactics (albeit not particularly tested at this level).

[Byebyegeegee]

I agree and disagree. I think you are correct that under Jesse's system, close and medium-range passing becomes harder unless the players are top quality, but in another sense I disagree because Jesse's system reinterprets the concepts of 'passing' and 'width'. A pass is not a pass. Under Jesse's system, every kinesis is dynamic. A pass is an attack, a dynamic penetrating move in which action is transferred to the opponent's space. Sometimes this means simple passing along a vertical as part of a direct attacking style. Sometimes it means using the ball as a sort of 'bomb' planted in the opponent's half. Think of a Sunday league game in which a naive defender simply hoofs the ball forward for wont of options or skill, or due to lacking the mental equilibrium to simply look for options around him. Jesse's system does that same thing in certain situations, but with the more organised idea of counter-pressing, if possession cannot be retained. Therefore, loss of possession becomes a form of defence and attack combined - a paradox, but often effective.

Well I have to say that your explanation and justification of Marsch’s system is far too technical for little old me to understand Soccerist. It may be right, I don’t know! But I just report what I see, and what I see, when we have possession, is unattractive, un-dynamic, congested football, all played within the central 20 yards of the pitch which just doesn’t allow our players any time or space to receive and control a pass, and doesn’t afford them an opportunity to release an easy pass to a teammate in space. It may just work as a defensive strategy but, as far as I can see, the narrow system is counter-productive for us in attack as it doesn’t create any space to stretch the opposition’s defence.

A football pitch is approximately 50 yards wide, it’s there to be used.

[Sockerist]

Well I have to say that your explanation and justification of Marsch’s system is far too technical for little old me to understand Soccerist. It may be right, I don’t know! But I just report what I see, and what I see, when we have possession, is unattractive, un-dynamic, congested football, all played within the central 20 yards of the pitch which just doesn’t allow our players any time or space to receive and control a pass, and doesn’t afford them an opportunity to release an easy pass to a teammate in space. It may just work as a defensive strategy but, as far as I can see, the narrow system is counter-productive for us in attack as it doesn’t create any space to stretch the opposition’s defence.

A football pitch is approximately 50 yards wide, it’s there to be used.

Weaknesses in the system are counterbalanced by strengths. Passing is only difficult if the opposition mirror our compactness and adhere to our players and block spaces. Some opponents will do that, maybe even without thinking about it, some won't. Some will instead maintain their width, which means Leeds can use depth to build attacks.

Where there is no space for close passing, Leeds players are expected to pass long and/or hit the ball into opposition areas and then counter-press. This means that if teams adopt the tactic of pressuring our players, we give them the ball so that we can pressure them back. One misunderstanding is that people think that if the opponent manages to distribute the ball, that means the counter-press is beaten and the system has failed defensively, but that depends on where the ball goes and what is done with it. If the ball goes straight to one of our players, then the counter-press has worked and we just resume our attack. If the ball goes to one of their players in a dangerous position, potentially the counter-press has failed to shut down the opponent's distribution options. Due to our narrowness, our Achilles' heel seems to be down flanks, but that can only be a problem in one of two circumstances:

(i). if the opponent is mirroring our compactness, then our defenders are not alert or they have attackers who can break quickly from a compact formation and outrun our defenders;

(ii). if the opponent is maintaining width, a counter-attack down the flanks is more of a risk for us, but at the same time, width becomes the opponent's own Achilles' heel, for the reasons explained.

I think it is a bit of a myth that Jesse's system lacks width, for two reasons. First, full-backs are important in creating width in the opponent's half. Second, when Jesse thinks of 'depth v width', he isn't necessarily thinking that players should keep to the central 'corridors' of the pitch. Players can be compact anywhere. The narrow 'box' formation could move the ball forward anywhere on the pitch, including out wide, and still form a fast vertical attack.

I don't like Jesse's system, but I think it can be efficacious. The problem Jesse has is that he is managing a split team at the moment, some players are not of the necessary quality to bring out the strengths of this system. Maybe, as I say above, he is also a bit too wedded to a system and should have been more pragmatic in his tactics from the start.

[Pullhard]

The For Sale sign is on the door.
17th is good enough for Radz and that is his target for Jesse.
January window will reflect that and will be the height of our transfer ambition.
Do enough to survive, minimise the investment needed and get a deal done with a new buyer ….

What sort of branding change is needed for RB Leeds !!!

[velo]

Forest, Swansea & Wigan come to mind, then was the fiasco vs Villa, not forgetting the Derby play-off all at Elland Road.

The Marsch hate-brigade won't be dishing out any credit his way, no matter what!

Most on here were blinded my Bielsa...but he is no longer at Leeds...time to move on

[Cjay]

He looks very stressed does Jesse.

A man under pressure?

We are now at the dreaded 1 ppg mark, 17 points from 17 games

2 wins in 15.

18th in the form table over the last 12 games

Despite the draw yesterday we are closer to the relegation zone, 2 points now instead of 3.

4th worst defence.

The improvement from last season is miniscule if at all. 16 points this season to 17 now.

For the first time in a while the performance tools have Jesse underperforming the club expectations (such as they are) 16th we should be.

Where do we go from here?

Could Marsch walk? He tried to at Leipzig because he couldn't cope.

He looks almost deranged on the sidelines at times.

And it was a poor point yesterday to.

[Irish Ian]

He looks very stressed does Jesse.

A man under pressure?

We are now at the dreaded 1 ppg mark, 16 points from 16 games

2 wins in 15.

18th in the form table over the last 12 games

Despite the draw yesterday we are closer to the relegation zone, 2 points now instead of 3.

4th worst defence.

The improvement from last season is miniscule if at all. 16 points this season to 17 now.

For the first time in a while the performance tools have Jesse underperforming the club expectations (such as they are) 16th we should be.

Where do we go from here?

Could Marsch walk? He tried to at Leipzig because he couldn't cope.

He looks almost deranged on the sidelines at times.

And it was a poor point yesterday to.

I cant see him walking, he has been given most of the tools he has asked for and has been handed another in Wober.

Despite what many think we are developing quite a potent strike force, and the partnership between Gnonto and Summerville is a joy to behold.

But this idea about individual errors does not absolve him from blame.

I do believe he will stave off relegation, but with him at the helm it will be the same old every season.

His tactics are not for me

[Leeds1000]

What username were you under on TALK, 1000?

Viduka hits the Mark 64.

Few years ago now.

[weasel]

He looks very stressed does Jesse.

A man under pressure?

We are now at the dreaded 1 ppg mark, 17 points from 17 games

2 wins in 15.

18th in the form table over the last 12 games

Despite the draw yesterday we are closer to the relegation zone, 2 points now instead of 3.

4th worst defence.

The improvement from last season is miniscule if at all. 16 points this season to 17 now.

For the first time in a while the performance tools have Jesse underperforming the club expectations (such as they are) 16th we should be.

Where do we go from here?

Could Marsch walk? He tried to at Leipzig because he couldn't cope.

He looks almost deranged on the sidelines at times.

And it was a poor point yesterday to.

I did mention earlier that we are doing similar to last year when we faced West Ham around this time of year. We went into that game with 19pts from 19 games (and ended it with 22 from 20) whereas this season it was 16 from 16, now 17 from 17. However the big difference was the gap to the bottom 3 last season saw us 9 points clear and a game in hand whereas this season the gap is just the 2 points and a game in hand. Also when looking at the 6 teams below us I would expect West Ham to pull comfortably clear, despite them being awful last night, Wolves have been playing well under their new manager and I can see them pulling clear. Southampton look doomed, Everton may get a new manager bounce if they sack Lampard and Forest have been picking up points and may get stronger as everyone gels. Bournemouth are a tricky one to judge as they have picked up a reasonable amount of points but I feel their manager may be a weakness. As such I don't see it like last year where Watford and Norwich were woeful.

[BlackHillsPaul]

Results will always speak for themselves. And right now the results are not good enough. I said yesterday that we need 12-15 pts out this stretch of 10 matches. We started it out with a point yesterday. Which means we now need 11-14 points out of the next 9 matches. If we can't win 4 of those matches given the opponents then Jesse needs to go.

Another thing to watch is the current mess with U.S. Soccer. It's probably not being reported in England but we are in the middle of a messy soap opera involving Manager Greg Berhalter and the parents of Dortmund Starlet Gio Reyna. They were not happy with his playing time at the WC and have retaliated against Berhalter by discussing a domestic abuse issue from 31 years ago. (NOTE: The Berhalter's and Reyna's were close friends). Berhalter's contract expired at the end of 2022. Talks of a new contract have been halted pending an investigation. Which is exactly what the Reyna's want. They want him out. Jesse's name has been tossed around as the replacement. And frankly, he was campaigning for the job on American media during the World Cup break. Which I thought was pretty inappropriate given he is employed by LUFC. My point is Jesse has options. I don't think he will be too bothered if he ends up parting company with Leeds. He hasn't lost the dressing room. But his ideas are not working and he knows it.

I'll go on record right now that I do NOT want Jesse Marsch as USA Manager. We can do better. I hear Marcelo Bielsa is available....

[weasel]

Results will always speak for themselves. And right now the results are not good enough. I said yesterday that we need 12-15 pts out this stretch of 10 matches. We started it out with a point yesterday. Which means we now need 11-14 points out of the next 9 matches. If we can't win 4 of those matches given the opponents then Jesse needs to go.

Another thing to watch is the current mess with U.S. Soccer. It's probably not being reported in England but we are in the middle of a messy soap opera involving Manager Greg Berhalter and the parents of Dortmund Starlet Gio Reyna. They were not happy with his playing time at the WC and have retaliated against Berhalter by discussing a domestic abuse issue from 31 years ago. (NOTE: The Berhalter's and Reyna's were close friends). Berhalter's contract expired at the end of 2022. Talks of a new contract have been halted pending an investigation. Which is exactly what the Reyna's want. They want him out. Jesse's name has been tossed around as the replacement. And frankly, he was campaigning for the job on American media during the World Cup break. Which I thought was pretty inappropriate given he is employed by LUFC. My point is Jesse has options. I don't think he will be too bothered if he ends up parting company with Leeds. He hasn't lost the dressing room. But his ideas are not working and he knows it.

I'll go on record right now that I do NOT want Jesse Marsch as USA Manager. We can do better. I hear Marcelo Bielsa is available....

I think there may be a lot to that. I wonder if he has reached the point where he feels his tactics don't work and knows that he is almost a dead man walking. I simply think he is out of his depth and armed only with tactics that don't work. I think he would be smart enough to realise that he was basically gone before the Liverpool result - I wonder if the board had basically decided to sack him but were still looking at options and saw no reason to sack him prior to the Liverpool match as they wanted a bit of time to make an appointment. The Liverpool result probably stopped the sacking from happening.

[Cjay]