Jesse Marsch

[Cjay]

Well said Kenny and a great reply.

Marsch has got Roca, Adams, Sinisterra, Aaronsen and RK and only lost Raphinha (given that KP was injured most of last season) fromt he starting line up. So he has 4 more players than Bielsa did who also had the same problems with Bamford not being fit, Cooper and Firpo being in and out and Rodrigo blowing hot and cold.

So Marsch has been given 5 players who are all seemingly guaranteed starters in place of Bielsa having 1 starter, Raphinha. We are far stronger with our available players than we were last year yet doing worse. The only player Bielsa had available that Marsch doesn't is Dallas, I know he is versatile but he isn't the same as having 4 starters.

Little mini me.

You take Bamford out of Bielsa team and he struggles.

Marsch has never had a fit Bamford.

The fact we are still talking about Bielsa is f**king stupid, so sick of it.

[Cjay]

I am not saying 15/16 goals from 3 strikers I said 15/16 goals from the number 9 position, whoever plays there - Bamford got 17 goals from the no.9 position in 38 matches in 2020-2021. So far we have 4 goals (all from Rodrigo) from our no.9 position this season as Rodrigo has scored all his goals whilst playing as our no.9

Bamford isn't fit and hasn't been fit for 12months.

Rodrigo has scored 15/16 goals ina season 2 times I think in his career.

[weasel]

Bielsa hadn't lost the plot, he stuck to trying to get his players still playing what he had taught them, it's just the 2nd and 3rd choice players available at the time of those games were nowhere near as good as his first choice players.

Bielsa knew that how he had got the team playing was the team's best way of getting wins. Yes it wasn't pretty with som many players missing from the starting line-up but he knew with players coming back the team would be stronger and as such would then be able to play better.

If Bielsa changed it to, let's say, 442 then when KP came back he'd be having to play in an unfamiliar role - does that make us stronger than we would be if KP returned to the team that was playing the familiar style and KP could slot straight into his role? Note even the Bielsa knockers were saying that KP didn't look like the same player when he came back from injury and was having to play a different role for Marsch.

It is ridiculous for people to suggest that with key players missing we'd suddenly do better by changing to a formation that they weren't used to playing. Don't forget that the U23s were all playing the same way too. Yes we might have not got beat by 7 against CIty but do equally we might have done worse with less understanding and just trying to somehow sit back and rely on City missing the target. We would then also not be anywhere near as cohesive a unit when it came to playing matches we would hope to win (i.e. we adopt a defensive formation v City but then somehow switch straight to an attacking formation v Norwich).

It was like accepting that we'd get d*cked by the likes of City and Liverpool but it would give us our best chance of beating the likes of Norwich, Wolves, Watford etc. Switching formation wouldn't have given us more points v the 'big' teams but would have weakened us and lessened our chances of getting points v the 'smaller' clubs.

Sadly so many people don't see the big picture including those running the club.

[Kennyb41]

Bielsa's squad was aimed for 17th to, Kinnear even said so so did Radz.

They aimed for 17th.

Bamford hasn't been fit for 12months through his own admission, so Marsch hasn't had a proper Bamford fit anyway since he arrived.

They've both had injuries!!!! So you cut them both slack no?

Marsch has had plenty of issues of his own this season including Bamford being unfit for 100% of the games (we don't finish anywhere near 9th if that happens in our 1st Prem season back)
Cooper has missed 50% through injury.
Firpo (only left back) 70%
Sinisterra 20%.
Forshaw 50%
Dallas 100%
Ayling 50%
Gelhardt 20%
Dan James a vital player under Bielsa but loaned out to buy a kid.

Take Bamford out of that Bielsa team how do you think he does?

His win percentage without Bamford in the Championship was around 50%.

With about 55%

Premier League with around 40% and without 25%.

Bielsa struggled without Bamford, Marsch hasn't had him fit fully since he arrived.

So Marsch has had tons of injuries himself including many players Bielsa relied upon and the main striker who without Bielsa really struggled.

If you excuse Bielsa then why not Marsch?

And crucially Bielsa liked a small squad, that is undeniable, he talked about it long before he arrived at Leeds.

Easier to manage, less chance of conflict between players etc.

So you run a small squad with no depth then you know the risks.

Marsch is on record as liking a big squad . . He didnt get one

Oh Jeez Cjay, that's the point for Christs sake.

Bert without any problems and injuries was just fine and we finished 9th, but 2nd season had loads of problems.

Jesse hasn't really run into anything like the problems Bert had for Christs sake.

Berts main problem was the spine of the team, take PB out, you might get by, just take KP out you might just be ok, take LC out and the defence struggles,

And i'll 100% bet that Bert was lied to by Radz about money available so he went about trimming and cutting where he could and raising money himself...Vieira, Roofe, etc...then set about polishing turds.

Lets see Jesse polish some huh and not his own

And Gawd help him if he gets key injuries coz we're fcked.

[Victor_OTT_17]

The fact we are still talking about Bielsa is f**king stupid, so sick of it.

Right on

[Kennyb41]

We've spent up to within about 4 mil of our limit. Check out the Phil Hay finance pod. Without investment or spending money we don't have, that's where we are. Bielsa always accepted the financial limitations, and the need to sell players, even those he wanted to keep. That isn't 'aiming for 17th' as a lack of ambition, it's a recognition that we need to build gradually.

Our only chance to be competitive is to employ a coach who makes us more than the sum of our parts. Bielsa showed how it is possible for good coaching to improve the players you have, and to develop a style which can go toe to toe with the best.

The huge mistake was appointing Marsch, who is capable of neither.

Absolutely precise.

He was our only hope of achieving greatness and great football on the cheap.

That's why i said you just didn't 'get it' and 'see the bigger picture ffs'

This guy or anyone else in the world isn't fit to lace Berts boots as the saying goes, he is the best by a country mile that isn't at a top club and the only reason to me he's not scooped up by a top club is - he comes with baggage.

If i was the owner of anyone like Villa now i would literally give him the key to the door and just leave him to crack on....Oh and find him a cracking scout, probably taking his advice for that as well and let him choose one.

[Kennyb41]

Bielsa knew that how he had got the team playing was the team's best way of getting wins. Yes it wasn't pretty with som many players missing from the starting line-up but he knew with players coming back the team would be stronger and as such would then be able to play better.

If Bielsa changed it to, let's say, 442 then when KP came back he'd be having to play in an unfamiliar role - does that make us stronger than we would be if KP returned to the team that was playing the familiar style and KP could slot straight into his role? Note even the Bielsa knockers were saying that KP didn't look like the same player when he came back from injury and was having to play a different role for Marsch.

It is ridiculous for people to suggest that with key players missing we'd suddenly do better by changing to a formation that they weren't used to playing. Don't forget that the U23s were all playing the same way too. Yes we might have not got beat by 7 against CIty but do equally we might have done worse with less understanding and just trying to somehow sit back and rely on City missing the target. We would then also not be anywhere near as cohesive a unit when it came to playing matches we would hope to win (i.e. we adopt a defensive formation v City but then somehow switch straight to an attacking formation v Norwich).

It was like accepting that we'd get d*cked by the likes of City and Liverpool but it would give us our best chance of beating the likes of Norwich, Wolves, Watford etc. Switching formation wouldn't have given us more points v the 'big' teams but would have weakened us and lessened our chances of getting points v the 'smaller' clubs.

Sadly so many people don't see the big picture including those running the club.

Nail on head.

[Kennyb41]

Little mini me.

You take Bamford out of Bielsa team and he struggles.

Marsch has never had a fit Bamford.

The fact we are still talking about Bielsa is f**king stupid, so sick of it.

Well, i did try my best for weeks but *people including yourself were continually referring to his poor injury stricken season and comparing back continually that i thought i'd join in to protect my idol.

*You ALL know who you are, so don't deny it.

Btw, you always seem to find a door when you're cornered by using such^

[Jaydog]

Shouldn’t Bielsa have his own thread where comments from either “side” should be limited to.
Never been a fan of looking backwards. Oh the past was so much better. But it very rarely was

[weasel]

Bielsa's squad was aimed for 17th to, Kinnear even said so so did Radz.

They aimed for 17th.

Bamford hasn't been fit for 12months through his own admission, so Marsch hasn't had a proper Bamford fit anyway since he arrived.

They've both had injuries!!!! So you cut them both slack no?

Marsch has had plenty of issues of his own this season including Bamford being unfit for 100% of the games (we don't finish anywhere near 9th if that happens in our 1st Prem season back)
Cooper has missed 50% through injury.
Firpo (only left back) 70%
Sinisterra 20%.
Forshaw 50%
Dallas 100%
Ayling 50%
Gelhardt 20%
Dan James a vital player under Bielsa but loaned out to buy a kid.

Take Bamford out of that Bielsa team how do you think he does?

His win percentage without Bamford in the Championship was around 50%.

With about 55%

Premier League with around 40% and without 25%.

Bielsa struggled without Bamford, Marsch hasn't had him fit fully since he arrived.

So Marsch has had tons of injuries himself including many players Bielsa relied upon and the main striker who without Bielsa really struggled.

If you excuse Bielsa then why not Marsch?

And crucially Bielsa liked a small squad, that is undeniable, he talked about it long before he arrived at Leeds.

Easier to manage, less chance of conflict between players etc.

So you run a small squad with no depth then you know the risks.

Marsch is on record as liking a big squad . . He didnt get one

It is madness Cjay. You are saying both Bielsa and Marsch largely have the same problems and are in the same position yet Bielsa should have been sacked and Marsch should be able to use it as an excuse????

[Kennyb41]

Right on

Ok let's get back on topic...

Marsch out?

If we beat Fulham, it'll just prolong the agony and risk less time to be saved from the drop.

It could be a catalyst but i doubt it with upcoming fixtures.

So i suppose a defeat could be the best for us, he'll still be here for Liverpool but then i can see the axe falling.

[Kennyb41]

Forest 1-0 up, not even Liverpool can swap and change to good effect.

Throw in some injuries to boot.

[weasel]

If i was the owner of anyone like Villa now i would literally give him the key to the door and just leave him to crack on....Oh and find him a cracking scout, probably taking his advice for that as well and let him choose one.

Bielsa with a cracking scout would be amazing.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

I think that people read too much into that 9th place finish. I suspect that it had a lot to do with the absence of crowds at matches - players like Bamford and Harrison who are suspect when it comes to handling the pressure of playing in front of big crowds played at a level which seems like a pipedream now. For much of the season we were outside the top 10, however I think that a flurry of goals from Rodrigo in the last few games boosted us up into the top 10.

Bamford had one PL goal to his name prior to that season, and since that season he has what - 3 PL goals is it ? He's had 20 odd appearances despite the injuries, and if you discount that one great season, he has something like 4 PL goals to his name in the whole of the rest of his career.

[The Subhuman]

Bielsa with a cracking scout would be amazing.

TBF he could have employed one, in fact he probably did have contacts he could call on.

[White Riot]

Oh yes, comes with a bucket attached and a strap on.

that's it mate

[Jaydog]

That's not the point though. Marsch is being judged, and that is inevitably against the standard set by the person he was brought in to replace.

What you're asking is to evaluate Marsch without any reference to how his players performed previously, or to the system that they previously played.

I'm as bored as anyone with all the 'Bielsa was stubborn, he was taking us down' bollocks, but Marsch didn't arrive in a vacuum.

I don’t believe in comparison at all. It’s why I don’t really get involved. Was Bielsa a better manager or coach than Marsch. Yes. End of conversation for me really. Is that important going forward. No. Not at all.
We need to stay up as I don’t believe in all that relegation is better nonsense. As I’ve said I think we’ll stay up but we should then move on from Marsch.
I had some quiet reflection when Bielsa left. I liked him as a person or at least the one I thought he was, his quirks and his obvious brilliance as a coach but I can’t be bothered with continuously looking back. It’s a waste of effort.

[UK2USA]

I'm as frustrated and upset at our current position as anyone, but when emotions rule, often things are overlooked that allow us to be more objective. The Premiership is all about money and worsening inequality. It's the same top 6, the next 2 and a bottom 12 all fighting to just survive, and Leeds are where the board have set us up to be, so I'm managing my expectations. On the back of our excellent performance against Arsenal, if we had got a result against Leicester would we really be talking about sacking Marsch? Last season we were watching us getting battered by the top 6 teams. I haven't spoken to an Arsenal fan who didn't think we were the better team, just a WEEK Ago! Last season we lost 4-1. Why didn't we get at least a point against them this time? Was it Marsch's tactics? It was some of the best football we have seen in ages. Did Bamford get 'sacked' because he missed a penalty and two 1 v 1's. Summerville should have scored, and Rodrigo had a rush of blood to the head, yet they are on the team sheet every week, because we have NO ONE ELSE! Do you honestly think one of the usual 'recycled' failed managers is going to change this too much, I'm not convinced given the lack of quality we have in this team. We had a world class manager who couldn't save himself from getting sacked.

Its been the same theme for the last few games, and in fact for the past 2 -3 seasons. We play well, we create a ton of chances, (16 against Arsenal) but we don't have the 'Quality Strikers' to finish. We the fans know this, and it's so easy to see, yet this board have done nothing about it. I'm sure Marsch wanted a top quality striker to add to the players he brought in, who for the most part have been very good, and way better than the ones he inherited! Aaronson is MOTM most weeks. If the board had spent the money on a quality striker several of our last few games would have had a different result and we would all be a lot happier, and mid table. Bamford and Rodrigo have never been prolific, and some of the sitters they miss are inexcusable and have cost us points and probably Marsch his job! The excuses of 'fitness and rustiness' are wearing thinner every game. Mistakes week after week by mainly players Marsch inherited are costing us dearly, maybe these players have finally been found out, at this level. Theres actually a lot of positives to take from our previous games, (not Leicester). We've played 2 top 6 teams and looked very good. We played with 10 men for a second half and got a point and short of an error strewn performance against Brentford we have conceded way less.

We don't have the depth, and short of kids coming off our bench or Klich, (1 goal and 2 assists in over 40 games) who can turn a game for us? I'm not completely defending Marsch's substitutions or game plan, but he cant be held completely responsible for how badly some of these players are individually performing, and the basic errors they commit. You could clearly see his head shaking & frustration during the Leicester game at another Rodrigo mistake, and our inability to even pass a ball. The board have decided to 'Hope' and gamble and not spend to fix the 'obvious' problem. Any incoming manager is going to be in the same predicament. Maybe sacking Marsch if we lose against Fulham may be inevitable, a change is as good as a rest, but lets be careful and not assume this board have or want to spend the money, and are more hoping there are 3 worse teams below us per last season...MOT

[Jaydog]

Still missing the point imo.

I've been trying to talk about the weaknesses of Marsch's system, here and elsewhere, ever since he was appointed. The response has continually, and pretty much exclusively, been in the form of people saying, yeah but he saved us from Bielsa's folly.

It isn't an answer, and it never has been. Leaving aside the pointless arguments about whether Bielsa was 'taking us down', or whether Marsch 'kept us up', not one person has spelled out to me why they believe Marsch's system can succeed in the premier league. It's always, give him time, wait until he's got his own players, etc.

His time is now up. He's a proven failure, and he will be taking us down if we persist with him. He's demonstrated that he's not capable of getting the required ppg against teams outside the top six. Game over. Really, the value of Bielsa as an exemplar now is in the kind of coach we should be looking for next.

Not really. The failures of the Marsch system are well known and have been endlessly pointed out on here.
I don’t really see the “love in” for Marsch on here tbh. Most people are realistic. I also wouldn’t argue that it was specifically Marsch & his system that kept us up. I don’t believe that entirely. But he is also called lucky for his wins v Chelsea & the brilliant performance v Arsenal. That these teams were either off form or basically set up in a way that allowed us to play our way. So if all teams set up like top of the table Arsenal the Marsch system is a “winner”. Is that how I should understand it

[Kennyb41]

I'm as frustrated and upset at our current position as anyone, but when emotions rule, often things are overlooked that allow us to be more objective. The Premiership is all about money and worsening inequality. It's the same top 6, the next 2 and a bottom 12 all fighting to just survive, and Leeds are where the board have set us up to be, so I'm managing my expectations. On the back of our excellent performance against Arsenal, if we had got a result against Leicester would we really be talking about sacking Marsch? Last season we were watching us getting battered by the top 6 teams. I haven't spoken to an Arsenal fan who didn't think we were the better team, just a WEEK Ago! Last season we lost 4-1. Why didn't we get at least a point against them this time? Was it Marsch's tactics? It was some of the best football we have seen in ages. Did Bamford get 'sacked' because he missed a penalty and two 1 v 1's. Summerville should have scored, and Rodrigo had a rush of blood to the head, yet they are on the team sheet every week, because we have NO ONE ELSE! Do you honestly think one of the usual 'recycled' failed managers is going to change this too much, I'm not convinced given the lack of quality we have in this team. We had a world class manager who couldn't save himself from getting sacked.

Its been the same theme for the last few games, and in fact for the past 2 -3 seasons. We play well, we create a ton of chances, (16 against Arsenal) but we don't have the 'Quality Strikers' to finish. We the fans know this, and it's so easy to see, yet this board have done nothing about it. I'm sure Marsch wanted a top quality striker to add to the players he brought in, who for the most part have been very good, and way better than the ones he inherited! Aaronson is MOTM most weeks. If the board had spent the money on a quality striker several of our last few games would have had a different result and we would all be a lot happier, and mid table. Bamford and Rodrigo have never been prolific, and some of the sitters they miss are inexcusable and have cost us points and probably Marsch his job! The excuses of 'fitness and rustiness' are wearing thinner every game. Mistakes week after week by mainly players Marsch inherited are costing us dearly, maybe these players have finally been found out, at this level. Theres actually a lot of positives to take from our previous games, (not Leicester). We've played 2 top 6 teams and looked very good. We played with 10 men for a second half and got a point and short of an error strewn performance against Brentford we have conceded way less.

We don't have the depth, and short of kids coming off our bench or Klich, (1 goal and 2 assists in over 40 games) who can turn a game for us? I'm not completely defending Marsch's substitutions or game plan, but he cant be held completely responsible for how badly some of these players are individually performing, and the basic errors they commit. You could clearly see his head shaking & frustration during the Leicester game at another Rodrigo mistake, and our inability to even pass a ball. The board have decided to 'Hope' and gamble and not spend to fix the 'obvious' problem. Any incoming manager is going to be in the same predicament. Maybe sacking Marsch if we lose against Fulham may be inevitable, a change is as good as a rest, but lets be careful and not assume this board have or want to spend the money, and are more hoping there are 3 worse teams below us per last season...MOT

There's a lot in there so i'll just say what all the complete buffoon gits told us about Bert instead of seeing the bigger picture.

He carries the can. Just get rid.