Jesse Marsch

[Kennyb41]

Will the dog watch at the guesthouse?

She would yes but my sons coming with me, she'll watch it with him and go mental when she hears me.

[Overman]

You mean like the Bielsa bunny-boilers with their blow up Marcelo

Oh yes, comes with a bucket attached and a strap on.

[Cjay]

Oh my good lord, i'm struggling to believe what i'm reading.

Ok, let's take out the team now Adams, Roca, Rasmus, Aaronson , how do you think we'll go on in the upcoming ?

Coz that's what Bert had to do - polish turds.

Pick your team go on ?

You can't say we've lost KP and Raph coz Bert lost KP and i've left Sinisterra there for you in place of Raph.

So pick your team and say if you think we'd struggle ?

Now that's when you have to try polishing turds.

Not a clue what point your trying to make here . . . .

I think any team would struggle with this squad, it is built for 17th, that's it, nothing more.

[Cjay]

You can't 'build' a squad for 17th... that's not even a thing!

Geared towards then.

You budget for 17th.

You spend what you think it will cost to finish 17th.

You spend as little as possible and have a squad as small as possible to keep costs down.

You do the bare minimum.

[Victor_OTT_17]

Chilli D wrote: ↑Fri Oct 21, 2022 5:03 pm]
Your rose tinted glasses have got all steamed up Kenny.
We conceded 20 goals in Bielsa's last 6 games in charge and only 5 scored.
We were heading back to the Championship with those figures and you can say what you want about how good his first three seasons were, they were but the team had completely lost the plot by the time he was sacked.
It was sad when he went but inevitable I'm afraid.

1. My glasses are not steamed, but it seems yours are as you choose a period of 'last 6 games in charge' against 100+ games..6 games against whom ? How many of his preferred players out ? How many of his players being forced into other roles ?

And he hadn't lost the plot, he stuck to trying to get his players still playing what he had taught them, it's just the 2nd and 3rd choice players available at the time of those games were nowhere near as good as his first choice players.

Soz Kenny, you cannot defend Bielsa there: we were deffo going down that season because Bielsa flatly refused to change anything. As greta as he was (and he was) he was the most stubborn manager I have witnessed anywhere ever...

[Kennyb41]

Not a clue what point your trying to make here . . . .

I think any team would struggle with this squad, it is built for 17th, that's it, nothing more.

What was Berts Prem first season squad built for 20th ?

What was his 2nd Prem season squad built for 20th ? Add to that all that seasons injuries etc.

Now you say this current is built for 17th yes, now take away the availability of some key players, let's say Adams, Aaronson, PB and Roca, where do you see us ?

In fact let's say LC, PB, BA, and TA get injured tomorrow, what's your team selection v Liverpool and scoreline prediction?

[Kennyb41]

Soz Kenny, you cannot defend Bielsa there: we were deffo going down that season because Bielsa flatly refused to change anything. As greta as he was (and he was) he was the most stubborn manager I have witnessed anywhere ever...

Oh yes i can Victor.

No one in the world can say we were DEFINITELY going down under him, because it didn't play out.

I could just as easily say we were DEFINITELY gonna stay up with him because he didn't faulter and stuck to the principles he'd drilled into his players, and the returning cavalry ( because they did return) would've steadied the ship, i could easily add - he had his finger on the pulse, chatting daily with those injured players and the physio staff about the timing of their return, weighing up the remaining fixture list and proceeding accordingly, so he kept to what he knew was best and not disturbing the rhythm of his system ready for their return.

It's just as easy for me to say i'm 100% confident he would've kept us up as it is for ANYONE to say we 100% were going down, prove it, you can't and neither can i, but in both our minds we're sure.

[Kennyb41]

Oh yes, comes with a bucket attached and a strap on.

Oh my sides are splitting please give over

Thanks for your once daily contribution to all things Leeds

The forum is sincerely greatful!

Must dash.

[weasel]

Almost like he felt obliged to give him some game time.

In fairness, Llorenete was ok last night. But you can't leave Cooper out. Any average fan can see that our organization is piss poor when he doesn't play.

Here's an idea. If you rest Cooper again, why not have him constantly warming up level with the back line so he can shout out orders? Is he allowed to do that?

if i was on the pitch and someone was doing that I would absolutely hate it. You need to be able to focus on the game not have someone on the side telling you non stop what to do.

[Jaydog]

Oh yes i can Victor.

No one in the world can say we were DEFINITELY going down under him, because it didn't play out.

I could just as easily say we were DEFINITELY gonna stay up with him because he didn't faulter and stuck to the principles he'd drilled into his players, and the returning cavalry ( because they did return) would've steadied the ship, i could easily add - he had his finger on the pulse, chatting daily with those injured players and the physio staff about the timing of their return, weighing up the remaining fixture list and proceeding accordingly, so he kept to what he knew was best and not disturbing the rhythm of his system ready for their return.

It's just as easy for me to say i'm 100% confident he would've kept us up as it is for ANYONE to say we 100% were going down, prove it, you can't and neither can i, but in both our minds we're sure.

Which is why the conversation is null & void. Impossible to compare 2 managers who had 2 completely different situations coming in. Bielsa had a very unique situation. His methods were right time right place and they worked because he had the ability to implement them and get the absolute best (and more) out of his players. But he started off in the Championship so a comparison with Marsch is utterly pointless. Saying that it doesn’t look like Marsch has the ability to do something similar and the bar is a lot higher in the PL. Still think we’ll stay up but he would need to be moved on at the end of the season even if he achieves it

[Victor_OTT_17]

Oh yes i can Victor.

No one in the world can say we were DEFINITELY going down under him, because it didn't play out.

I could just as easily say we were DEFINITELY gonna stay up with him because he didn't faulter and stuck to the principles he'd drilled into his players, and the returning cavalry ( because they did return) would've steadied the ship, i could easily add - he had his finger on the pulse, chatting daily with those injured players and the physio staff about the timing of their return, weighing up the remaining fixture list and proceeding accordingly, so he kept to what he knew was best and not disturbing the rhythm of his system ready for their return.

It's just as easy for me to say i'm 100% confident he would've kept us up as it is for ANYONE to say we 100% were going down, prove it, you can't and neither can i, but in both our minds we're sure.

I respect your opinions pal but regarding Bielsa: you're deluded! I kow you love the man and you think the sun shines out of his bucket (see what I did there) but he'd overworked the players to the point of exhaustion and they no longer wanted to play for him (IMO). Bielsa had to go: in fact, he had to go at the start of the year for me...

[Cjay]

What was Berts Prem first season squad built for 20th ?

What was his 2nd Prem season squad built for 20th ? Add to that all that seasons injuries etc.

Now you say this current is built for 17th yes, now take away the availability of some key players, let's say Adams, Aaronson, PB and Roca, where do you see us ?

In fact let's say LC, PB, BA, and TA get injured tomorrow, what's your team selection v Liverpool and scoreline prediction?

Bielsa's squad was aimed for 17th to, Kinnear even said so so did Radz.

They aimed for 17th.

Bamford hasn't been fit for 12months through his own admission, so Marsch hasn't had a proper Bamford fit anyway since he arrived.

They've both had injuries!!!! So you cut them both slack no?

Marsch has had plenty of issues of his own this season including Bamford being unfit for 100% of the games (we don't finish anywhere near 9th if that happens in our 1st Prem season back)
Cooper has missed 50% through injury.
Firpo (only left back) 70%
Sinisterra 20%.
Forshaw 50%
Dallas 100%
Ayling 50%
Gelhardt 20%
Dan James a vital player under Bielsa but loaned out to buy a kid.

Take Bamford out of that Bielsa team how do you think he does?

His win percentage without Bamford in the Championship was around 50%.

With about 55%

Premier League with around 40% and without 25%.

Bielsa struggled without Bamford, Marsch hasn't had him fit fully since he arrived.

So Marsch has had tons of injuries himself including many players Bielsa relied upon and the main striker who without Bielsa really struggled.

If you excuse Bielsa then why not Marsch?

And crucially Bielsa liked a small squad, that is undeniable, he talked about it long before he arrived at Leeds.

Easier to manage, less chance of conflict between players etc.

So you run a small squad with no depth then you know the risks.

Marsch is on record as liking a big squad . . He didnt get one

[Cjay]

I honestly don't think that's what they've done.

You don't think a senior squad of experienced pros of 17 outfield players I think it was and a negative net spend after selling our 2 best players despite the fact we only survived on the last day was aiming for 17th?

If they'd done that to Bielsa you wouldn't be furious?

[Kennyb41]

Which is why the conversation is null & void. Impossible to compare 2 managers who had 2 completely different situations coming in. Bielsa had a very unique situation. His methods were right time right place and they worked because he had the ability to implement them and get the absolute best (and more) out of his players. But he started off in the Championship so a comparison with Marsch is utterly pointless. Saying that it doesn’t look like Marsch has the ability to do something similar and the bar is a lot higher in the PL. Still think we’ll stay up but he would need to be moved on at the end of the season even if he achieves it

What the actual fck Jay ???

He had an amazing first year in his life in the Prem with gash players that finished 9th ffs !!!

He'd never experienced the Prem, Jesse is in his first year and has brought 5 of his players here, why can we not compare ??

Utterly pointless ? - Bert inherits gash and turns them into Prem players and finishes 9th please don't conveniently forget that - Jesse is handed a team in the Prem already, adds 5 of his own and turns us into gash ?

What am i missing here ?

[Kennyb41]

I respect your opinions pal but regarding Bielsa: you're deluded! I kow you love the man and you think the sun shines out of his bucket (see what I did there) but he'd overworked the players to the point of exhaustion and they no longer wanted to play for him (IMO). Bielsa had to go: in fact, he had to go at the start of the year for me...

H'mm oh Yeah, quite a few on record thanking him and praising his work on them i think you'll find.

Well, you got what you wished for and we told you to be careful, let's let old mother time be the judge on that that's coming to bite you right on that bucket (see what i did there pal)

[weasel]

Oh my good lord, i'm struggling to believe what i'm reading.

Ok, let's take out the team now Adams, Roca, Rasmus, Aaronson , how do you think we'll go on in the upcoming ?

Coz that's what Bert had to do - polish turds.

Pick your team go on ?

You can't say we've lost KP and Raph coz Bert lost KP and i've left Sinisterra there for you in place of Raph.

So pick your team and say if you think we'd struggle ?

Now that's when you have to try polishing turds.

Well said Kenny and a great reply.

Marsch has got Roca, Adams, Sinisterra, Aaronsen and RK and only lost Raphinha (given that KP was injured most of last season) fromt he starting line up. So he has 4 more players than Bielsa did who also had the same problems with Bamford not being fit, Cooper and Firpo being in and out and Rodrigo blowing hot and cold.

So Marsch has been given 5 players who are all seemingly guaranteed starters in place of Bielsa having 1 starter, Raphinha. We are far stronger with our available players than we were last year yet doing worse. The only player Bielsa had available that Marsch doesn't is Dallas, I know he is versatile but he isn't the same as having 4 starters.

[Kennyb41]

6A42D436-9BF6-4CB7-8FED-8F7960C5D466.jpeg


This 'stubborn' narrative really is nothing more than the simplistic media soundbite of the day. No one ever explains how a team drilled for three and a half years in a very precise and exacting style were supposed to improve by switching it up over night.

The reality is that Bielsa adapted the players available to still make the system work well enough to create chances, even in the games where we got battered by Man City and Liverpool.

He played an attacking game, that was his style. The notion that we could have suddenly improved things by going all Big Sam is a fantasy, merely a stick to beat the man who was actually holding the club together.

See, much much better words than mine, exactly what i wanted to say, thankyou

[weasel]

And 15 / 16 goals for 3 strikers in a season would be a shocking total imo.

I am not saying 15/16 goals from 3 strikers I said 15/16 goals from the number 9 position, whoever plays there - Bamford got 17 goals from the no.9 position in 38 matches in 2020-2021. So far we have 4 goals (all from Rodrigo) from our no.9 position this season as Rodrigo has scored all his goals whilst playing as our no.9

[Jaydog]

What the actual fck Jay ???

He had an amazing first year in his life in the Prem with gash players that finished 9th ffs !!!

He'd never experienced the Prem, Jesse is in his first year and has brought 5 of his players here, why can we not compare ??

Utterly pointless ? - Bert inherits gash and turns them into Prem players and finishes 9th please don't conveniently forget that - Jesse is handed a team in the Prem already, adds 5 of his own and turns us into gash ?

What am i missing here ?

I had an uneasy feeling after the 9th. It seemed to flatter us completely but I couldn’t really work out why. Maybe no fans made a difference , I don’t know. I think they’ve probably both suffered by the economic reality of our club. Bielsa needed a whole raft of new players to bludgeon into his football ideal and that wasn’t going to happen. Marsch is clearly nowhere near as talented but I’d be concerned by his replacement if it’s someone like Sam or Gerrard

[Cjay]

We've spent up to within about 4 mil of our limit. Check out the Phil Hay finance pod. Without investment or spending money we don't have, that's where we are. Bielsa always accepted the financial limitations, and the need to sell players, even those he wanted to keep. That isn't 'aiming for 17th' as a lack of ambition, it's a recognition that we need to build gradually.

Our only chance to be competitive is to employ a coach who makes us more than the sum of our parts. Bielsa showed how it is possible for good coaching to improve the players you have, and to develop a style which can go toe to toe with the best.

The huge mistake was appointing Marsch, who is capable of neither.

Radz is on record for saying he wanted a mid table Italian club.

If your happy with a mid table Italian club then you are just delighted with a Premier League team.

The finance available for that is far greater.

He has no intention of growing gradually, he can't afford to.

His business plan of sell to buy will only ever see you near the bottom.