The ownership situation

[Cjay]

This desperately needs sorting out imo.

We have 2 owners who don't want to invest at a bit of an impasse.

Radz never has invested much in the first place and venture capital funds invest largely only in shares and what not, pieces of the pie.

Radz will have gone to 49ers Enterprises cap in hand and pitched to them, don't be fooled by this talk of friendship, its nonsense, he will have had to pitch like every other potential candidate did.

And then they would analyse him, the club and the business in general which fortunately for us is football, one of the most potentially lucrative markets around.

Radz couldn't afford to run the club by himself, nothing more complicated than that, that is why people go to venture capital funds. They specialise in taking risks on startups in potentially hazardous markets but with the potential for massive returns.

Everything is textbook venture capital fund. Slow investment to gather up shares, a person on the board, bring in another venture capital fund and get them on the board to share the burden and attract investors (that's what Lowy is), its all textbook.

All this talk of using the expertise of the fund, marketing, commercial, nothing special, perfectly normal behaviour.

I confess I have had to learn about all this so no expert but that is what I gather to be the case.

Mostt VC's invest all they will within 5 years with the aim of cashing out by year 10.

We are at year 4 with them investing first in 2018.

They don't need to cash out now and neither will they, they have no chance of getting back the £70mil I think they have invested never mind any sort of profit for the fund itself or its investors.

They also are unlikely to want to buy a Championship club because they lose money hand over fist and its OK if you bounce back at first time of asking but if we didn't then we go into the 6th year of there investment as a money losing business which clearly isn't the plan and by which time most funds are thinking about the exit strategy.

Having said all this if we can survive then they have a decision to make.

They make money one of two ways, first of all they want a profitable business (not always to cream money off the top but sometimes) but because it is most attractive to investors.

The fund ultimately wants to flog the club for tons of money to someone else or to offer it via an ipo (offer shares of the club to the public ).

That is how the fund hope to make money.

They can't do that with a Championship club, they need us to survive.

But even if we do they need to find a way of making a large profit on a club that needs massive investment on the playing side.

Can they justify that to there investors? They may not actually have the funding, they may not be able to attract more funding this deep into an investment.

If they buy for the reported price that is taking the investment to around £400million which is one of the most expensive fees ever paid for a football club. And then they need to invest into the business to make it more successful and you are then pushing the £600mil Kroenke paid for 90% of Arsenal who were far more profitable and successful than us.

And then you have a few years to make this club into a £700mil+ club just to make some money back and you only have 3 or 4 years to do it. And that needs the club to be successful and profitable which at Premier league levels even is not a very common thing.

It's all very very risky even if we do survive.

However If we do survive then I suspect Radz will sell to them unfortunately (not a fan of him either I'd rather them both out) but I don't want to be owned by a venture capital fund.

But what happens if we don't?

2 owners unwilling to invest into the club, neither of them can afford to cash out and sell and its unlikely one of them would want a majority anyway?

It's clear from Radz reaction he wasn't happy with the 49ers for leaking the agreement to buy his shares.

It's been rumoured that there was a stand off over January funding with the 49ers only wanting to invest for more shares (which I know some don't believe but that is actually the only reason they would invest).

Radz was wrong for getting them involved in the first place, he simply was desperate, now we are in a bit of a mess imo.

[Bongo1874]

This desperately needs sorting out imo.

We have 2 owners who don't want to invest at a bit of an impasse.

Radz never has invested much in the first place and venture capital funds invest largely only in shares and what not, pieces of the pie.

Radz will have gone to 49ers Enterprises cap in hand and pitched to them, don't be fooled by this talk of friendship, its nonsense, he will have had to pitch like every other potential candidate did.

And then they would analyse him, the club and the business in general which fortunately for us is football, one of the most potentially lucrative markets around.

Radz couldn't afford to run the club by himself, nothing more complicated than that, that is why people go to venture capital funds. They specialise in taking risks on startups in potentially hazardous markets but with the potential for massive returns.

Everything is textbook venture capital fund. Slow investment to gather up shares, a person on the board, bring in another venture capital fund and get them on the board to share the burden and attract investors (that's what Lowy is), its all textbook.

All this talk of using the expertise of the fund, marketing, commercial, nothing special, perfectly normal behaviour.

I confess I have had to learn about all this so no expert but that is what I gather to be the case.

Mostt VC's invest all they will within 5 years with the aim of cashing out by year 10.

We are at year 4 with them investing first in 2018.

They don't need to cash out now and neither will they, they have no chance of getting back the £70mil I think they have invested never mind any sort of profit for the fund itself or its investors.

They also are unlikely to want to buy a Championship club because they lose money hand over fist and its OK if you bounce back at first time of asking but if we didn't then we go into the 6th year of there investment as a money losing business which clearly isn't the plan and by which time most funds are thinking about the exit strategy.

Having said all this if we can survive then they have a decision to make.

They make money one of two ways, first of all they want a profitable business (not always to cream money off the top but sometimes) but because it is most attractive to investors.

The fund ultimately wants to flog the club for tons of money to someone else or to offer it via an ipo (offer shares of the club to the public ).

That is how the fund hope to make money.

They can't do that with a Championship club, they need us to survive.

But even if we do they need to find a way of making a large profit on a club that needs massive investment on the playing side.

Can they justify that to there investors? They may not actually have the funding, they may not be able to attract more funding this deep into an investment.

If they buy for the reported price that is taking the investment to around £400million which is one of the most expensive fees ever paid for a football club. And then they need to invest into the business to make it more successful and you are then pushing the £600mil Kroenke paid for 90% of Arsenal who were far more profitable and successful than us.

And then you have a few years to make this club into a £700mil+ club just to make some money back and you only have 3 or 4 years to do it. And that needs the club to be successful and profitable which at Premier league levels even is not a very common thing.

It's all very very risky even if we do survive.

However If we do survive then I suspect Radz will sell to them unfortunately (not a fan of him either I'd rather them both out) but I don't want to be owned by a venture capital fund.

But what happens if we don't?

2 owners unwilling to invest into the club, neither of them can afford to cash out and sell and its unlikely one of them would want a majority anyway?

It's clear from Radz reaction he wasn't happy with the 49ers for leaking the agreement to buy his shares.

It's been rumoured that there was a stand off over January funding with the 49ers only wanting to invest for more shares (which I know some don't believe but that is actually the only reason they would invest).

Radz was wrong for getting them involved in the first place, he simply was desperate, now we are in a bit of a mess imo.

Which is why I made a thread of, Radz, Orta, Marsch out they don't give a feck about Leeds, Marsch is never a football manager, it was a direct insult to replace marcelo with him.

You guys will be back that i have no doubts about, but you need people that run the club that love the club, you had that in marcelo as a manager, what you needed was investment they didn't invest enough in the summer.

[Cjay]

Why is it that other clubs can get generous benefactors.

West Ham got this Czech Billionaire whose apparently going to help fund a major spree in the summer and help them do everything they can to keep Rice.

Newcastle got the Saudi lot.

Man City got the Abu Dhabi man.

Villa got there Billionaires who have totally changed the club.

Tony Bloom at Brighton.

Wolves.

Leicester

Yet we always get the same thing. People after what they can make from.the club.

A whole succession of people after what they can get.

Radz was the least awful of the lot but ultimately henused us for himself, to get his name in the paper, to take to Myanmar to make money for himself.

He was always after what he can get, the 49ers are no different.

Why don't we ever just get wealthy and ambitious owners who just want to achieve things and not only care about what they can make?

Other clubs do.

[William]

Devils advocate here.

Radz turned this club around, he cant be blamed for that.

Paid wages from his own pocket then wrote off the loan.

Yes it was wise fiscally but it flies in the face of these allegations..

Plus he did invest in this squad.

£150M since promotion.
£20M offered in the window in January.
Huge wages to coach and playing staff.
Bought the stadium back. £15M in improvements sonce promotion.
Huge investment in TA.


He isnt equipped to take us to top 8 but thats hardly a crime.
He makes mistakes but they all do.

Could remedy that by finding a DOF
We could be far worse off

Its easy to say underinvestment but we have spent big but as we all know money is only any use with a great coach and a vision, losing Bielsa meant we lost both.

[BlackHillsPaul]

I can't stand Vulture Capitalists. Whether they are buying football clubs or manufacturing plants it's the same thing to them. It's all about flipping it for a relatively quick profit. We probably all have friends or relatives that have lost jobs because some Venture Capitalists took control (usually through a hostile takeover). and split it up into pieces and sold it off at a profit. Completely immoral!

Having said that, I do find it strange that supporters seem to be shocked and dismayed that Owners might expect to make money on an investment in a football club. After all, clubs can and do appreciate in value. It seems many people view the club owners role to be purely that of a caretaker. A philanthropic enterprise whereby they are to "invest" large amounts of money to the benefit of this community asset. With no expectation of financial return.

[Cjay]

Devils advocate here.

Radz turned this club around, he cant be blamed for that.

We are going right back where we started with a worse squad and more debt. Hardly turned anything around?

Paid wages from his own pocket then wrote off the loan.

Man invests a small amount into his own business, should he really get ctedit for providing a relatively small funding to his own business? £20mil

Yes it was wise fiscally but it flies in the face of these allegations..

Plus he did invest in this squad.

£150M since promotion.
£20M offered in the window in January.
Huge wages to coach and playing staff.
Bought the stadium back. £15M in improvements sonce promotion.
Huge investment in TA.

I seriously doubt there was any money for January, a leaked bid for a player who it was widely reported from day 1 was unobtainable.

Club doesn't own the stadium he does. He didn't buy it for fans he bought it for himself because it attracts investors if you have assets.
All that money was loaned against TV money, didn't come from his own pocket. Why should he get credit for that? And the transfer money was spent awfully so if anything as owner he should get more criticism for wasting our clubs tv money on crap

All those things you list he hasnt paid for he has used the clubs money or sold bits off to a venture capital fund who have him by the balls.


He isnt equipped to take us to top 8 but thats hardly a crime.
He makes mistakes but they all do.

He isnt equipped to finance a Championship team never mind a Premier League one hence why he went cap in hand to the 49ers. He by his own admission has had offers to buy the club, he refused to sell, why?

Is that because its best for the club or him?

Could remedy that by finding a DOF
We could be far worse off

Relegated with a divided ownership and an incompetent DOF and liabilities in the £100s of millions without the money the liabilities were banking on to fund them.

A low value and ageing squad whose few 2 or 3 high value assets all have release causes a fraction of there value.

Sounds pretty grim to me bar a miracle recovery

Its easy to say underinvestment but we have spent big but as we all know money is only any use with a great coach and a vision, losing Bielsa meant we lost both.

in terms of ownership investment from there own pockets we are at a serious disadvantage.

This is a league where teams like Brighton and Leicester (not the big boys) have had 3 times as much investment from there owners as we have.

Wolves and Villa to, far far more.

We claim to be a big club but we never attract those types of owners. Why?

Radz is what he is, he never pretended to be anything else.

He was always out for what he could make...

He underestimated the cost of a Championship club and had to go to the venture capital fund. So we ended up woth 2 owners trying to make money out of us

I just dont get why we never get our Dream takeover.

Our Wolves, our Villa, our Newcastle (yeah human rights etc i know) but those level of takeovers that are absolutely life changing and sustained.

We always get meh, some ok some bad.

Feel better for my rant just a bit fed up blah

All that being said, aside from money and what not , one word sums up this ownership and board. . . . Arrogant.

Thinking they know better than everyone else.

Its been a theme from the start with the badge and Myanmar and more.

[Bongo1874]

in terms of ownership investment from there own pockets we are at a serious disadvantage.

This is a league where teams like Brighton and Leicester (not the big boys) have had 3 times as much investment from there owners as we have.

Wolves and Villa to, far far more.

We claim to be a big club but we never attract those types of owners. Why?

Radz is what he is, he never pretended to be anything else.

He was always out for what he could make...

He underestimated the cost of a Championship club and had to go to the venture capital fund. So we ended up woth 2 owners trying to make money out of us

I just dont get why we never get our Dream takeover.

Our Wolves, our Villa, our Newcastle (yeah human rights etc i know) but those level of takeovers that are absolutely life changing and sustained.

We always get meh, some ok some bad.

Feel better for my rant just a bit fed up blah

All that being said, aside from money and what not , one word sums up this ownership and board. . . . Arrogant.

Thinking they know better than everyone else.

Its been a theme from the start with the badge and Myanmar and more.

Never stop believing Leeds are massive, you know I'm a Newcastle fan but it kills me, to see yous in the position you are currently in, you're a club with a lot of similarities to us, that football is a way of life for the support of Leeds.

[Kennyb41]

What a fantastic new thread and thanks for going to the length and research you have.

I'm with you all the way on that, it's always baffled me why no rich fcker has come in for us, you only have to look at the fans ffs.

I'm also with William coz i think Radz has done ok to a point, but like you say Cjay hasn't enough to take us further, the last thing i want is Americans just here for what they can get, it's ok if they make a little and we're better off for it, but they won't give a flying fck about us, it'll be smash and grab.

Look i'm sorry to have to bring Bert into this, but Radz should be on his knees thanking Bert.

The Clown is the single largest monstrosity we have, and we have absolutely nothing to thank him for bar Raphinha.

I said it elsewhere yonks and yonks and yonks back...Radz has hardly any cash - re big football clubs, and should just be left to run the business.....The Clown should be fcked off ASAP like last fcking century !...and just let Bert get on with things footy wise....Bert couldn't go searching for players with all the shyte he had to do here, sorry for going off topic.

Great thread though, basically if we go down, we're virtually back to square , but without God.

[Cjay]

What a fantastic new thread and thanks for going to the length and research you have.

I'm with you all the way on that, it's always baffled me why no rich fcker has come in for us, you only have to look at the fans ffs.

I'm also with William coz i think Radz has done ok to a point, but like you say Cjay hasn't enough to take us further, the last thing i want is Americans just here for what they can get, it's ok if they make a little and we're better off for it, but they won't give a flying fck about us, it'll be smash and grab.

Look i'm sorry to have to bring Bert into this, but Radz should be on his knees thanking Bert.

The Clown is the single largest monstrosity we have, and we have absolutely nothing to thank him for bar Raphinha.

I said it elsewhere yonks and yonks and yonks back...Radz has hardly any cash - re big football clubs, and should just be left to run the business.....The Clown should be fcked off ASAP like last fcking century !...and just let Bert get on with things footy wise....Bert couldn't go searching for players with all the shyte he had to do here, sorry for going off topic.

Great thread though, basically if we go down, we're virtually back to square , but without God.

We don't agree on much Kenny but we are on a similar page regarding Orta and the owners.

He hasn't been awful Radz no.

Best of a bad bunch.

But he loses points for the 49ers he loses points for the awful recruitment he loses points for his personal lack of investment and he loses points for his arrogance.

I have read from other fans who apparently are reliable that we have missed out on atleast 2 or 3 dream takeovers.

I don't know who or what but the interested parties were apparently Abramovich type people and possibly even City/Newcastle.

But the owners at the time (Bates and possibly Cellino) messed it up for there own selfish reasons.

I wonder if Radz has done the same ever? I would imagine he has.

[Kennyb41]

The best thing for me to come out of this shambles would be to lose the 49er's completely.

I don't really know enough of the ins and outs of the business side but was always of the opinion that ..." Oh ffs here we go again getting taken over by some numpty with no fcking money, why the fck does this happen to Leeds when all around us lesser teams get billionaires "

But in Radz case although he looked skint by comparison i thought he was doing it the right way, but like i said i don't know enough.
It's mainly the clown that is and has fcked everything up.

[Johnboy1965]

Wow what a brilliant and well thought out post CJay.
Hope to God you are wrong else I can see us sliding back into League 1 crippled with even more debt.
It's criminal the amount of money this board have pissed away on bad decisions and not just on the playing side either.
The club and the task ahead is bigger than the 3 stooges can manage and they are very much out of their depth.

[Kennyb41]

Wtf is Kinnears job anyway ? What's his background ? Wtf does he do ?

I'm serious, i haven't a clue what he's supposed to do or what his role is ?

[whiteswan]

Wtf is Kinnears job anyway ? What's his background ? Wtf does he do ?

I'm serious, i haven't a clue what he's supposed to do or what his role is ?

I've often wondered that myself Kenny. Think he's paid millions to jot down a few programme notes now and again! Would like to know what he had to say in Wednesday's programme v Chelsea.....

[Mountain]

in terms of ownership investment from there own pockets we are at a serious disadvantage.

This is a league where teams like Brighton and Leicester (not the big boys) have had 3 times as much investment from there owners as we have.

Wolves and Villa to, far far more.

We claim to be a big club but we never attract those types of owners. Why?

And isn't that ultimately the problem.

We have a club with Premier League aspirations but Championship finances We had, for a while, the one thing that enabled us bridge that gap, but that's gone now and it's back to reality.

You can't beat the economic realities, our top player last season isn't even on the average PL wage, our top scorer last season barely over it, our best player and a Brazilian international on the average PL wage.
The average. You can try and paper over everything, replace a player here, make resources stretch further, train harder than the rest, spend hundreds of hours analysing everything. But the one thing that we learn again and again and again and again is that poorer teams do worse than richer ones, and tend to fight out relegation battles.

I'm not blaming Radrizzani, I'll take the Championship over being an exercise in sportswashing like City and NUFC.

[Cjay]

And isn't that ultimately the problem.

We have a club with Premier League aspirations but Championship aspirations We had, for a while, the one thing that enabled us bridge that gap, but that's gone now and it's back to reality.

You can't beat the economic realities, our top player last season isn't even on the average PL wage, our top scorer last season barely over it, our best player and a Brazilian international on the average PL wage.
The average. You can try and paper over everything, replace a player here, make resources stretch further, train harder than the rest, spend hundreds of hours analysing everything. But the one thing that we learn again and again and again and again is that poorer teams do worse than richer ones, and tend to fight out relegation battles.

I'm not blaming Radrizzani, I'll take the Championship over being an exercise in sportswashing like City and NUFC.

But why is it we never attract those types of owners?

Not even necessarily a City or a Newcastle but a Villa or an Abramovich (before it went title up) or a Wolves?

We always attract loonies or chances or people with Champagne ideas but Fanta budgets.

[Mountain]

But why is it we never attract those types of owners?

Not even necessarily a City or a Newcastle but a Villa or an Abramovich (before it went title up) or a Wolves?

We always attract loonies or chances or people with Champagne ideas but Fanta budgets.

I just don't know.

I mean, I don't like City's owners but I could never figure out why they bought City. It wasn't a big name club, it didn't have huge support, it wasn't some sleeping giant. Frankly, they could throw another few billion at it and people will still still think of one club in Manchester. The same with Venkys and Blackburn. It just made no sense. NUFC makes some sense, at least they can fill their ground and have potential. But some of the purchases have been baffling.

[Finnatic]

Even when we went down the Arab route, typical of Leeds to get the only ones with no money.

[Rook]

But why is it ]we never attract those types of owners?

QSi wanted to invest in us whilst we were in the Championship.

Link
https://tbrfootball.com/leeds-united-fa ... er-report/


Radrizzani opted for the 49ers instead, for some reason.

[Cjay]

QSi wanted to invest in us whilst we were in the Championship.

Link
https://tbrfootball.com/leeds-united-fa ... er-report/


Radrizzani opted for the 49ers instead, for some reason.

QSI would never have allowed Radz to be majority shareholder.

No way an organisation like that plays second fiddle to a relatively small time business man.

[WhiteRose]

You know it’s always a bad sign when the old stadium plans get an airing again, ridiculous that they started that talk when we had only just been promoted and didn’t have money to spend on players.

I think you hit the nail on the head already on why super wealthy owners have never bought us - it’s the current incumbents who always believe they can do it themselves on the cheap and reap the rewards - therefore they don’t sell and try to get investors instead and by the time they get desperate the big investors have gone elsewhere and another chancer is the only option. From the days of ridsdale to krasner, bates to GFH and Cellino it’s always been the same.