Southampton post match discussion

[SG90]

It was mentioned in the match thread about no-one congratulating Piroe.
He doesn't seem to have much respect in the team.
Summerville also held onto the ball when there was a free kick just outside the box. Piroe was there and you could tell he wanted to have a go.
Summerville doesn't seem to be a team player.
Not looking good for team harmony.

Summerville's been orchestrating a move away for ages, and wants all the attention for himself, to draw more interest. He'll be gone regardless, so doesn't care about the team, only his benefit.

[Barlow Boy]

Well that was a hard watch!

YAWN YAWN YAWN YAWN

We never looked likely to retrieve the game after going 1-2 down.

Give Saints credit, they played well with some slick passing & great movement on & off the ball, with Downes, Stephens, Harwood-Bellas, Walker Peters & Smallbone impressing, which we couldn't cope or compete with whatsoever!

Midfeld & defence cut to ribbons, our players lost their markers & stood about like statues for both the Saints goals.

Anthony, Gray & Joseph showed very little in the 35 minutes they were on the pitch, no surprise there.

Referee, was poor, even though he had no bearing on the result.

Any one notice how none of our players ran over to celebrate Piroe's goal, only a high-five with Gnonto was visable to me.

What a mess to be going into the play-offs.

I did warn you not to waste your time mate.

Have to say I didn’t notice the Piroe ‘celebration’, at the opposite end of the ground of course.

[Jaydog]

This thread has some heavy reading.

There is a very good post match analysis by Ger on YouTube for the Southampton game. He was at the match and provides some insightful observation's.

I like his analysis it is a realistic perspective IMO from a content provider who actually has a coaching background.

A good listen
I’m glad Ger explained it was man to man marking as you’d have a hard time spotting it. As Southampton wandered through our midfield for the umpteenth time I didn’t think “ooh the man to man marking isn’t working”.
But I agree with him on speed. No chance without it.
Too slow & predictable atm.

[CUSSIE01]

It was mentioned in the match thread about no-one congratulating Piroe.
He doesn't seem to have much respect in the team.
Summerville also held onto the ball when there was a free kick just outside the box. Piroe was there and you could tell he wanted to have a go.
Summerville doesn't seem to be a team player.
Not looking good for team harmony.

Can’t see Summerville or Gnonto staying even if we are promoted and although I don’t want to see them go if we get the right money I wouldn’t waste many tears. As you say there doesn’t seem to be the same team spirit or camaraderie as there was earlier in the season but maybe that’s what happens when things aren’t going to plan. If only we knew someone good at stats they could maybe work out how many goals we got from Summerville’s free kicks or corners, can’t imagine he’d need both hands to count, Firpo hit a decent free kick against Southampton so I’d like to see him given a few more chances.

[malcolmw]

I'm glad you bought this up.

Pressure, think Warnock mentioned it, possibly Allardyce as well.

Phil mentioned it in his articles and possibly even his book.

The pressure of managing LUFC is unlike practically any other club.

It's been hard enough for promotion specialists like Warnock, even Javi Gracia has a perfectly decent managerial cv as well.

But all of them struggled and ultimately failed here.

Whether Farke failed or ultimately fails is upto opinion and eventual outcome.

But the managers who got us success?

Revie played for us.
Grayson was a fan and boyhood player.
Armfield was an experienced international and World Cup winner.
Wilko may be the exception to the rule but Wendies are a historically successful club with a large fanbase.
O'Leary was a playing icon for a big club and very successful player at the top level for decades.
Bielsa of course had many years where literal countries relied on him and Marseille and Bilbao are huge clubs in their own respective countries.

The managers who succeeded here or atleast looked back on fondly for their achievements all (bar maybe Wilko) had either playing careers at big clubs or international level, grew up as fans, played for us, or had managed internationally or at comparatively large clubs elsewhere.

DF has none of these backgrounds.

He wasn't anything special as a player, never played for a historically big club, he only managed 1 Borussia Mönchengladbach who are a historically large club in Germany and he got sacked after 1 season.

His only success in his managerial career came at Norwich, a yoyo club who at the time were on record for being proud to be a top 26 club in England.

That is a real aim from Norwich football club from when DF was there and before.

Can you imagine the reaction in our fanbase if Angus Kinnear said that? But that was the expectation of Daniel Farke at Norwich.

For basically his entire spell, the narrative only changes in 2021 when the DOF expressed the wish to be a top 17 club, soon after sacking Farke for his performance.

So for the only successful periods in his career he was expected to make the playoffs, anything more was a bonus which he managed.

But aslong as the playoffs were achieved for basically his entire Norwich spell it was fine and the pressure was off.

We are very different as a club, historically, size wise and yes expectation wise from the fanbase.

A great strength but I'd imagine very much part of the pressure factor.

I think (you probably disagree) but I think DF has very much started to feel the pressure of our club now.

He's started to talk like every other manager we've had before when it's a bit rocky and look equally rattled.

Is the unique pressure of the club maybe proving difficult for someone whose never had that before? Perhaps

He wouldn't be the first or the last.

This is a very long winded post my apologies

What I'm trying to ask or say is, does it maybe take a very unique type to ultimately succeed here?

Someone who either understands the pressure from being a player here or one of us as a fan?

Or someone who experienced the expectations of big clubs big pressure as a manager or player elsewhere?

Because as Phil said in one of his articles LUFC is unique and its not like managing a Norwich.

It's broken more experienced and proven managers than DF before.

You've been banging on about this since last July Cjay. It's time to give it up. Everybody knows how you feel about our manager.

The 49ers are not going to get rid of Daniel Farke. Leeds are work-in-progress and, as has been described, a 'project'. We are in that situation because poor ownership decisions for over 2 decades caused a revolving door of managers which caused a downward spiral very few clubs have had to endure.
You would advocate a short-term, knee-jerk reaction that would mean starting all over again after 1 season of a totally new regime. New management team, try to rebuild a culture and create stability and momentum. Doesn't work like that - as our history shows. Changing course now would be nothing but destabilizing.

We finally have owners who know the sports business, its nuances and its complexities, on a global scale. Owners who invested in full ownership even after diabolical - and may I add - short-term decisions, of the prior season. Leeds United haven't had that for probably 30 years, or more.

I have no doubt if they feel, half way through next season - whichever league we're in - that Daniel Farke is no longer the right leader, they will exit him.
But now is not the right time for our Chairman - I am willing to bet on that.

So maybe try a longer term perspective on things. It's not all about the immediate data. There's an old saying in leadership training:
"it's easy to manage short and its easy to manage long. Finding a balance between short and long is the skill".

On the merits of this season in totality - 'steady as you go' should be the strategy for next season if we are still in the Championship.

[1964white]

This thread has some heavy reading.

There is a very good post match analysis by Ger on YouTube for the Southampton game. He was at the match and provides some insightful observation's.

I like his analysis it is a realistic perspective IMO from a content provider who actually has a coaching background.

Excellent

[weasel]

Any one notice how none of our players ran over to celebrate Piroe's goal, only a high-five with Gnonto was visable to me.

I made the point to an MOT regular earlier today about this, but more specifically how Summerville basically blanked him as he ran off to celebrate. Our loss of form came immediately after the Piroe/Summerville penalty incident....

[JoeDenver]

Excellent

Agree DDB and Leon, this was the best take of the lot, IMHO. Gave me some hope for the playoffs, but also some other areas of concern. For instance, are we midstream committed to man-marking for the playoffs or will he scrap the idea?

[Cjay]

You've been banging on about this since last July Cjay. It's time to give it up. Everybody knows how you feel about our manager.

The 49ers are not going to get rid of Daniel Farke. Leeds are work-in-progress and, as has been described, a 'project'. We are in that situation because poor ownership decisions for over 2 decades caused a revolving door of managers which caused a downward spiral very few clubs have had to endure.
You would advocate a short-term, knee-jerk reaction that would mean starting all over again after 1 season of a totally new regime. New management team, try to rebuild a culture and create stability and momentum. Doesn't work like that - as our history shows. Changing course now would be nothing but destabilizing.

We finally have owners who know the sports business, its nuances and its complexities, on a global scale. Owners who invested in full ownership even after diabolical - and may I add - short-term decisions, of the prior season. Leeds United haven't had that for probably 30 years, or more.

I have no doubt if they feel, half way through next season - whichever league we're in - that Daniel Farke is no longer the right leader, they will exit him.
But now is not the right time for our Chairman - I am willing to bet on that.

So maybe try a longer term perspective on things. It's not all about the immediate data. There's an old saying in leadership training:
"it's easy to manage short and its easy to manage long. Finding a balance between short and long is the skill".

On the merits of this season in totality - 'steady as you go' should be the strategy for next season if we are still in the Championship.

I agree in the sense that its not the time now to discuss the manager as its done.

He isn't going now, the summer maybe who knows.

I've never however believed the "project" line, multiple seasons etc. Farke was bought here for promotion in season one and I'd never believe different.

You don't plan for multiple seasons, your chances of promotion after season 1 drop below 10% historically so planning for multiple seasons is a plan backed up by no historical precedent.

And I think if you really wanted a "project" you appoint a coach whose done it before, DF hasn't.

Maybe we still get it? Happy days.

I would be very interested to know what the owners think of the drop off? Its such a stark one it surely makes them a bit nervous at the very least.

But I will try and control my Farke opinions for a bit.

[1964white]

I made the point to an MOT regular earlier today about this, but more specifically how Summerville basically blanked him as he ran off to celebrate. Our loss of form came immediately after the Piroe/Summerville penalty incident....

I'm very concerned if this is cause for the loss of our form.

[Irish Ian]

Bloody Dutch footballers fighting amongst themselves again then

[malcolmw]

I agree in the sense that its not the time now to discuss the manager as its done.

He isn't going now, the summer maybe who knows.

I've never however believed the "project" line, multiple seasons etc. Farke was bought here for promotion in season one and I'd never believe different.

You don't plan for multiple seasons, your chances of promotion after season 1 drop below 10% historically so planning for multiple seasons is a plan backed up by no historical precedent.

And I think if you really wanted a "project" you appoint a coach whose done it before, DF hasn't.

Maybe we still get it? Happy days.

I would be very interested to know what the owners think of the drop off? Its such a stark one it surely makes them a bit nervous at the very least.

But I will try and control my Farke opinions for a bit.

Cjay - I am as frustrated as you - and no doubt all Leeds fans right now. I get the need to try to find the root of this situation.

Having watched a few of the analyses videos post the last game, the point I agree with most is that the players are not even doing the basics right at present. I said this after the QPR game too. I put this squarely in their court.
Frankly they are suddenly acting like a bunch of spoilt brats. They aren't marking properly and giving counter-attacks way, way too much chance of hurting us. Then they stand with a big frown on their faces, with raised arms looking at teammates. FFS - just focus on your own job!
Yet these are the same players who, a short time ago, built a fortress out of ER. Maybe they'd bought into their own PR - and thought this would be a doddle. I don't know. There should be some dire consequences placed on to each of them if they don't start acting like adults. (Don't know what that means exactly, but as an old guy, the biggest issue with the young generation overall today - and we have a very young squad - is they dont ever have to fear consequences of their actions and their words).

I know many disagree, but something happened after return from the international break. Not using that as an excuse - simply a possible cause for the 180 change. I have a sneaky feeling it starts with the Welsh contingent!?

Its very easy to jump to the old "the manager has lost the dressing room" thing. Indeed maybe Farke should have come down on them with more force after the first mess at Coventry. None of know exactly how he did handle it.

But to me, once the players step on to the pitch and the whistle goes. It is up to them. I just don't see the errors of the past 6 games in particular as being poor tactics. I see it predominantly as poor player attitude. Again, maybe just no fear of any consequences.

Ampadu is a shadow of the leader he was 2 months ago. I want a captain to be barking orders and screaming at his players when they f*** up if he has to. It's a pity we lost Pascal. If he was still fit, after Coventry, Ampadu should have been benched and Pascal take the arm band. We saw him being very forceful with players in the moment in the first past of the season.

Some of our strongest contributors now need to go - whatever happens in the next 2 or 3 games. Summerville and Gnonto are reverting back to the selfish behaviour we saw last summer. No place for that at this club.

This brings me all the way back to the "project" idea. I actually think Farke is a project/long-term style manager. I think he takes a pretty long-term and big picture view of things. His previous owners just haven't seen that, maybe? I think that's why the 49er's took their time deciding last summer.

If we do still go up, it will be an exciting time to see who is recruited and who is exited. I would still sell Sunmerville and Gnonto - dont like their attitude and its clearly engrained. There will be investment to replace and build.

If we don't go up, then phase 2 of the 'project' kicks in, for me. Sell those who don't want to be there and lets bring in some experience and players who know what this job takes. Let's take a look at the squad Bielsa had, that got us promoted in his second season. That blend of talented youth and skilled experience is what we will need in this league next year.

And if Farke cant turn it right and we're not sitting in the top 3 or 4 after 15 or so games, then, yes consideration should be given to move him out.
Whatever happens, I'm looking forward to next season.

[malcolmw]

I'm very concerned if this is cause for the loss of our form.

Summerville is just teeing himself up for the big money that he knows is coming for him. He's a selfish little brat. Talented, but selfish. Whatever our position at end of the month he should be sold. Don't need that attitude.

We will also need a new captain. Ampadu has not been the same since the Welsh bunch got back from international duty. He has been a poor leader on the pitch ever since and is not taking control. In fact his own attitude has not been something you want to see from your captain.

We need more battled hardened experience for next season - whatever league we're in. Too many bloody kids who just shrug their shoulders when its not going well for them.

[Cjay]

Cjay - I am as frustrated as you - and no doubt all Leeds fans right now. I get the need to try to find the root of this situation.

Having watched a few of the analyses videos post the last game, the point I agree with most is that the players are not even doing the basics right at present. I said this after the QPR game too. I put this squarely in their court.
Frankly they are suddenly acting like a bunch of spoilt brats. They aren't marking properly and giving counter-attacks way, way too much chance of hurting us. Then they stand with a big frown on their faces, with raised arms looking at teammates. FFS - just focus on your own job!
Yet these are the same players who, a short time ago, built a fortress out of ER. Maybe they'd bought into their own PR - and thought this would be a doddle. I don't know. There should be some dire consequences placed on to each of them if they don't start acting like adults. (Don't know what that means exactly, but as an old guy, the biggest issue with the young generation overall today - and we have a very young squad - is they dont ever have to fear consequences of their actions and their words).

I know many disagree, but something happened after return from the international break. Not using that as an excuse - simply a possible cause for the 180 change. I have a sneaky feeling it starts with the Welsh contingent!?

Its very easy to jump to the old "the manager has lost the dressing room" thing. Indeed maybe Farke should have come down on them with more force after the first mess at Coventry. None of know exactly how he did handle it.

But to me, once the players step on to the pitch and the whistle goes. It is up to them. I just don't see the errors of the past 6 games in particular as being poor tactics. I see it predominantly as poor player attitude. Again, maybe just no fear of any consequences.

Ampadu is a shadow of the leader he was 2 months ago. I want a captain to be barking orders and screaming at his players when they f*** up if he has to. It's a pity we lost Pascal. If he was still fit, after Coventry, Ampadu should have been benched and Pascal take the arm band. We saw him being very forceful with players in the moment in the first past of the season.

Some of our strongest contributors now need to go - whatever happens in the next 2 or 3 games. Summerville and Gnonto are reverting back to the selfish behaviour we saw last summer. No place for that at this club.

This brings me all the way back to the "project" idea. I actually think Farke is a project/long-term style manager. I think he takes a pretty long-term and big picture view of things. His previous owners just haven't seen that, maybe? I think that's why the 49er's took their time deciding last summer.

If we do still go up, it will be an exciting time to see who is recruited and who is exited. I would still sell Sunmerville and Gnonto - dont like their attitude and its clearly engrained. There will be investment to replace and build.

If we don't go up, then phase 2 of the 'project' kicks in, for me. Sell those who don't want to be there and lets bring in some experience and players who know what this job takes. Let's take a look at the squad Bielsa had, that got us promoted in his second season. That blend of talented youth and skilled experience is what we will need in this league next year.

And if Farke cant turn it right and we're not sitting in the top 3 or 4 after 15 or so games, then, yes consideration should be given to move him out.
Whatever happens, I'm looking forward to next season.

I fully agree something happened during the international break.

The drop off is very reminiscent of Gracia and that Palace game, will never know what happened then and probably will never here either.

I think most managers will always play the "project" card though? You won't get many managers who say "yep I'm here to succeed immediately" because it opens them up for criticism if they don't?

Whether Farke sees himself as one or we do is up for debate, he's never been part of one before in the sense he left a club better than he found it.

We will see I suppose.

I still look at our accounts and think it would be madness to even pretend on the part of our owners this was a "project" though.

We owe £70+million before June and a further £120mil after just on transfer fees.

They must have known this, so logically you need Premier League football very quickly because that level of transfer debt is extremely high even for a Premier League club.

Let's see how we do anyway.

For me DF earns his money now, easy to take all the acclaim for very decent runs or try and distance yourself from blame for this run as he did the other day by now extending his difficult summer through September to October.

But we can still earn promotion at the end of the day and it's his job to life the players and first and foremost put in a decent performance vs Norwich.

If we do well make it to the final and narrowly miss out that's one thing, still very disappointing but it's something.

If we meekly collapse like we have recently and get dumped out in the semis then that's another imo

[The Subhuman]

I'm very concerned if this is cause for the loss of our form.

It's not imo

[DDB220]

I'm very concerned if this is cause for the loss of our form.

May just be coincidental. The fact that none of the other players celebrated could be down to the fact that they were probably aware that Ipswich were already ahead.

Sometimes folk see what they want to see. I am not ruling the possibility out, but I don’t hold much stock in this without additional corroboration.

[malcolmw]

I fully agree something happened during the international break.

The drop off is very reminiscent of Gracia and that Palace game, will never know what happened then and probably will never here either.

I think most managers will always play the "project" card though? You won't get many managers who say "yep I'm here to succeed immediately" because it opens them up for criticism if they don't?

Whether Farke sees himself as one or we do is up for debate, he's never been part of one before in the sense he left a club better than he found it.

We will see I suppose.

I still look at our accounts and think it would be madness to even pretend on the part of our owners this was a "project" though.

We owe £70+million before June and a further £120mil after just on transfer fees.

They must have known this, so logically you need Premier League football very quickly because that level of transfer debt is extremely high even for a Premier League club.

Let's see how we do anyway.

For me DF earns his money now, easy to take all the acclaim for very decent runs or try and distance yourself from blame for this run as he did the other day by now extending his difficult summer through September to October.

But we can still earn promotion at the end of the day and it's his job to life the players and first and foremost put in a decent performance vs Norwich.

If we do well make it to the final and narrowly miss out that's one thing, still very disappointing but it's something.

If we meekly collapse like we have recently and get dumped out in the semis then that's another imo

Can't argue with most of that Cjay.

You are right that he must show us what he can do now to turn things around from this startling slump.
But I have to say I'm not hopeful.
The players just seem to be in a funk that will take longer than a week to turn around.
Let's just hope they find it themselves. They are the ones who have to lace up their boots at Carrow Rd!

In terms of the finances, I have no doubt the 49ers were fully aware of the situation. There is nothing in their track record in pretty much any endeavour, that points to a lack of financial prudence. In fact the opposite. Marathe in particular seems to have a strong financial head on his shoulders.
But it's like buying anything. If you want zero risk and immediate return, you have to pay top dollar. They didn't. They jumped in at a point I believe they feel can be managed to a strong upside (ROI) in maybe 5 years.

If I recall our valuation had dropped from around 440million pounds to 170 million. So you do the deal then, knowing the potential upside.
They have the assets to ride out 3 or more years of investing without sweating about cashflow. None of our previous owners have had that depth of financial resources.

I recall saying back at the beginning of the season that it ironically may not be a good thing to go straight back up.
The 3 clowns and their acolyte Mr Marsh did such damage, it is going to take some time to get rid of the virus completely!

Only thing worse than not being promoted straight back up is being promoted and coming straight back down.

Based on all that, if we don't win the playoffs, I have no doubt Mr. Farke will have his targets very well set out for him. (Same I'm sure, if we do win the playoffs).

[1964white]

May just be coincidental. The fact that none of the other players celebrated could be down to the fact that they were probably aware that Ipswich were already ahead.

Sometimes folk see what they want to see. I am not ruling the possibility out, but I don’t hold much stock in this without additional corroboration.

I believe fatigue/illness/injuries are the reasons for our demise, the international break killed us, it was no break for the majority of our squad.

Anyway, I still reckon, we'll go up as champions next season.

[Kennyb41]

I made the point to an MOT regular earlier today about this, but more specifically how Summerville basically blanked him as he ran off to celebrate. Our loss of form came immediately after the Piroe/Summerville penalty incident....

Oh jeez i'd forgot about that, it really is a proper bugbear of mine stuff like that, it stinks to feckin high heaven and can really affect a team spirit, like "Who the fcks in charge here???"

Piroe handled that incident like a man, and i admired his demeanor.
Summerville is a boy.

I missed most of the Soton game, but i have no doubt that 1 eye would've been on how the game and score was going at Ipswich and to take the foot of the gas to conserve and not get any injuries for our lot during the Soton match.

[Kennyb41]

Can't argue with most of that Cjay.

You are right that he must show us what he can do now to turn things around from this startling slump.
But I have to say I'm not hopeful.
The players just seem to be in a funk that will take longer than a week to turn around.
Let's just hope they find it themselves. They are the ones who have to lace up their boots at Carrow Rd!

In terms of the finances, I have no doubt the 49ers were fully aware of the situation. There is nothing in their track record in pretty much any endeavour, that points to a lack of financial prudence. In fact the opposite. Marathe in particular seems to have a strong financial head on his shoulders.
But it's like buying anything. If you want zero risk and immediate return, you have to pay top dollar. They didn't. They jumped in at a point I believe they feel can be managed to a strong upside (ROI) in maybe 5 years.

If I recall our valuation had dropped from around 440million pounds to 170 million. So you do the deal then, knowing the potential upside.
They have the assets to ride out 3 or more years of investing without sweating about cashflow. None of our previous owners have had that depth of financial resources.

I recall saying back at the beginning of the season that it ironically may not be a good thing to go straight back up.
The 3 clowns and their acolyte Mr Marsh did such damage, it is going to take some time to get rid of the virus completely!

Only thing worse than not being promoted straight back up is being promoted and coming straight back down.

Based on all that, if we don't win the playoffs, I have no doubt Mr. Farke will have his targets very well set out for him. (Same I'm sure, if we do win the playoffs).

Didn't we have a bit of a slump before we went on our amazing run of about 15 games?

Dips in form happen to the best of teams and players, and a 'dip in form' for half a dozen totally affects the 'team' display via a knock on effect to the players on that side or along side that particular player that's having a 'bad un'

Rutter - Operation, and hasn't been the same since.
Kamara - Illness, and his form totally dipped.

The Welsh had a most notable and understandable hangover, combined with two grueling Euro games, and a penalties knock out proper knocks the stuffing out of ya.

Rodon has quite obviously gone thru the pain barrier for us.

I have no doubt there are probably more contributing factors, niggles etc that have been kept in house so as not to alert the opposition to any weaknesses they could target.

And if there is any sort of lingering smell from the Summerville penalty incident, it can be hard to eradicate.