Middlesbrough v Leeds Utd - Post Match Discussion

[1964white]

Summerville's 4th goal was a joyous team goal involving Firpo, Bamford & Rutter with some clever movement & slick passing, finished off by our little Dutchman

How many goals has Summerville scored in that style this season?

[The Subhuman]

We were comfortable until the subs came on & that goal out of nothing, then mayhem/panic proceeded & we looked a different team.

I can see why Farke basically sticks & starts the same eleven every game.

He starts the same 11 as it's the team he thinks is his best. I'll not argue that other than Joseph is a better footballer than Paddy. The subs are chaotic and that's why we look worse, the correct tactical subs last night and Boro would not have got back into the game, they were tiring badly with us more likely to add a fifth but then they were given prey to hunt and that woke them up

[1964white]

Good to be scoring goals again.

[Cjay]

You just don't read other people's posts, do you?

No not really. . . .

Skim maybe

[1964white]

He starts the same 11 as it's the team he thinks is his best. I'll not argue that other than Joseph is a better footballer than Paddy. The subs are chaotic and that's why we look worse, the correct tactical subs last night and Boro would not have got back into the game, they were tiring badly with us more likely to add a fifth but then they were given prey to hunt and that woke them up

I thought Paddy was excellent last night.

He is our No.9 this season.

Next season could see a change up top.

[1964white]

No not really. . . .

Skim maybe

You are not the only one, Cjay

[The Subhuman]

I thought Paddy was excellent last night.

He is our No.9 this season.

Next season could see a change up top.

Comfortably our most inconsistent player and in a key role. I think Joseph would be more consistent, hold the ball up better, more of a predator in the box, stronger. He lacks Paddy experience but that's it and tbf Paddy's experience doesn't always help him ou

[1964white]

Comfortably our most inconsistent player and in a key role. I think Joseph would be more consistent, hold the ball up better, more of a predator in the box, stronger. He lacks Paddy experience but that's it and tbf Paddy's experience doesn't always help him ou

I would put Kamara in the same bracket.

[Chilli D]

No not really. . . .

Skim maybe

Except Kenny's

[Cjay]

You are not the only one, Cjay

Not the match thread.

Other threads yes but not this

[Cjay]

Except Kenny's

Absolutely

Expand my mind and all that

[JoeDenver]

Don't know if anyone agrees or it was in my head (or influenced by Gnonto and Jimmy swapping more).

But felt like we used more of the pitch vs Boro?

Used the right more, not so much Byram but it felt like it wasn't always just left left left?

Very much agree with this. Almost said something about it in the match thread. Think it was the Gnonto influence out right, but also the fact that he and Jimmy swapped a couple of times.

[JoeDenver]

Again, apart from the two defensive lapses, I thought we played well till the substitutions. Second game in a row where those have seen us just fall apart.

We’ve lost both games 0-1 after the substitutions and looked a hot mess

This is my sole gripe with Farke and because I, among others, find an issue with it, we’re often deemed to be in the anti-Farke camp. I find this sort of discourse extremely limiting… it’s not a black and white issue. He’s a Prem quality manager in so many facets (dare I say most). But I think he needs a substitution consultant as it appears to be his Achilles heel. That attribute of his is nowhere near Prem (or Championship) quality…

And I think he knows it, thus his reluctance to make substitutions (and why they are so late).

But people need to come off it about branding people anti-Farke. The man’s done wonders for this team…calming influence in a difficult turbulent period, brought out the best in Rutter, Jimmy, and Firpo (can you believe it?). Incredible run in 2024 to push us close to automatic promotion. All fantastic stuff. But the man is human and therefore fallible. And I think I’ve underscored the point about his one area where he’s definitely fallible. But that’s not anywhere close to saying he’s a horrible manager or we need a new manager, etc. Hope that nuance is understandable.

[weasel]

This is my sole gripe with Farke and because I, among others, find an issue with it, we’re often deemed to be in the anti-Farke camp. I find this sort of discourse extremely limiting… it’s not a black and white issue. He’s a Prem quality manager in so many facets (dare I say most). But I think he needs a substitution consultant as it appears to be his Achilles heel. That attribute of his is nowhere near Prem (or Championship) quality…

And I think he knows it, thus his reluctance to make substitutions (and why they are so late).

But people need to come off it about branding people anti-Farke. The man’s done wonders for this team…calming influence in a difficult turbulent period, brought out the best in Rutter, Jimmy, and Firpo (can you believe it?). Incredible run in 2024 to push us close to automatic promotion. All fantastic stuff. But the man is human and therefore fallible. And I think I’ve underscored the point about his one area where he’s definitely fallible. But that’s not anywhere close to saying he’s a horrible manager or we need a new manager, etc. Hope that nuance is understandable.

I just find that it seems to be that no matter what he does it seems to be that it is judged as always being the wrong thing. He doesn't make subs early so he gets lambasted for making the changes too late to have any real effect. He makes them earlier and fans say we lost our momentum and had looked like we were going to score before the changes (i.e. v Sunderland) or that we lost our way and ended up hanging on.

It just seems that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I think it is also a lot harder to get substitutions right than many people think. Players coming on have to get up to the pace of the game quickly or the team can be worse. You also want players who come on with the right attitude and determination to make a difference (Conor Roberts for me really excelled in this respect).

I think he has done a decent job with the subs. Not great but I think he has got it right and changed results for the better a few times and probaly only got it 'wrong' on a couple of occasions although there is of course no guarantee that things would have gone better if done differently.

[JoeDenver]

I just find that it seems to be that no matter what he does it seems to be that it is judged as always being the wrong thing. He doesn't make subs early so he gets lambasted for making the changes too late to have any real effect. He makes them earlier and fans say we lost our momentum and had looked like we were going to score before the changes (i.e. v Sunderland) or that we lost our way and ended up hanging on.

It just seems that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. I think it is also a lot harder to get substitutions right than many people think. Players coming on have to get up to the pace of the game quickly or the team can be worse. You also want players who come on with the right attitude and determination to make a difference (Conor Roberts for me really excelled in this respect).

I think he has done a decent job with the subs. Not great but I think he has got it right and changed results for the better a few times and probaly only got it 'wrong' on a couple of occasions although there is of course no guarantee that things would have gone better if done differently.

I can definitely understand the possibility of concern over losing momentum. Which is why I’m a fan of him staggering the subs one at a time (albeit earlier) as opposed to the 2 and 3 at a time within the last 10 or less minutes “Hail Mary” strategy he’s consistently employed. Earlier subs permits them more time to get acclimated. He staggered the subs correctly in this one, but completely flubbed the personnel. I particularly didn’t agree with the Piroe sub in this one, especially with him being the first sub. Thought Kamara for Byram (and shifting Gray to RB) was the easy shout as the first sub. Would’ve provided some better defensive cover and ball retention while sacrificing Gray’s forward-runs at CM (which were no longer critical when we were up 4-2). And given Byram’s injury proneness, it made sense to preserve him given the injured Roberts. I mean, the injury risk has been the excuse previously for other subs being made, so why the “hall pass” for not making this one? Did you know that Byram played the full 90+!! Really?!?! I’m at a loss for words with that reality. What would Farke have done in these next two matches had Byram gone down?

I’m sorry, I just can’t concede him getting subs right in many of our matches this season. They’ve been consistently too late AND with the wrong personnel. Sometimes he gets the personnel right, but leaves little to no time for them to make an impact (ala much of Gnonto’s usage this year). But mostly, it’s the former. This is my ONLY fault with him. But I think it’s a legitimate concern. And one that will be particularly exposed should we be fortunate to make it to the Premier League. That’s all I’m saying.

And honestly, I’d prefer to be discussing other more happy topics about the match that was (Jimmy, Geo, and Paddy’s return to form, Firpo’s continued influence, and is the Rodon-Ampadu partnership showing signs of deteriorating or was that simply a one time aberration, etc.). But I’m finding myself defending this very legitimate topic simply because so many have been outright dismissive of it. To me, that’s being an ostrich…and not a Peacock ;)

My 2 cents…

[malcolmw]

I'm going to have to start charging you rent, Malcolm, if you keep living in my head

Well said my good man, well said.

[malcolmw]

You are not the only one, Cjay

So what are you both saying then?

[Kennyb41]

Why do you think that was?

It is mainly because they went Gung ho, and to stand any chance at all of acquiring enough points to sneak into the play offs, they HAD to win the match, and they threw the proverbial kitchen sink at us, and some, and the players probably found that second wind and an extra pair of legs to go like fck till the ref blew his whistle, and yes! Some of our subs wouldn't have immediately got into the game.

It is called 'a game of football'

[Kennyb41]

We lost our balance due to the substitutions.

Once Bamford was subbed in the 75th minute, we became worse, with Cree, Willy & Georginio coming off, we lost all our best attacking options & ended up on the back foot for the final 15/20 minutes.

Obviously, Farke was rightly resting legs for our game on Friday evening.

Yes he would've been resting legs Sid for Friday, but we don't need to go looking for fault, sometimes just give credit to Boro, they went that extra mile to try and salvage something after a glorious header spurred them on, the subs were perhaps perfect at 2-4, but then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they've got a sniff.

How do we know our fresh legs didn't actually win it for us huh ? What if he left them on and they got injured for Friday, and Boro came back to win 5-4 !

Then he'd have been shot at dawn no doubt, by the children.

[Kennyb41]

Or alternatively it was because Boro got a goal from nothing and in the majority of matches when ateam is only 1 goal behind with a few minutes left they raise themselves and try to get an equaliser rather than simply thinking, "Woo let's just keep the ball and only lose by 1."

HOORAH !!

Some common at last ^