Middlesbrough v Leeds Utd - Post Match Discussion

[Kennyb41]

The last 15 minutes could have been so much easier if Firpo knew where to position himself when defending
Pretty basic stuff to know where you man is and get the right side of him and close down with some urgency

Now that's a good point ^ If you are gonna defend a lead, ffs don't leave Firpo on the pitch, did he sub Firpo i can't be arsed to look and can't remember?

[Kennyb41]

I can definitely understand the possibility of concern over losing momentum. Which is why I’m a fan of him staggering the subs one at a time (albeit earlier) as opposed to the 2 and 3 at a time within the last 10 or less minutes “Hail Mary” strategy he’s consistently employed. Earlier subs permits them more time to get acclimated. He staggered the subs correctly in this one, but completely flubbed the personnel. I particularly didn’t agree with the Piroe sub in this one, especially with him being the first sub. Thought Kamara for Byram (and shifting Gray to RB) was the easy shout as the first sub. Would’ve provided some better defensive cover and ball retention while sacrificing Gray’s forward-runs at CM (which were no longer critical when we were up 4-2). And given Byram’s injury proneness, it made sense to preserve him given the injured Roberts. I mean, the injury risk has been the excuse previously for other subs being made, so why the “hall pass” for not making this one? Did you know that Byram played the full 90+!! Really?!?! I’m at a loss for words with that reality. What would Farke have done in these next two matches had Byram gone down?

I’m sorry, I just can’t concede him getting subs right in many of our matches this season. They’ve been consistently too late AND with the wrong personnel. Sometimes he gets the personnel right, but leaves little to no time for them to make an impact (ala much of Gnonto’s usage this year). But mostly, it’s the former. This is my ONLY fault with him. But I think it’s a legitimate concern. And one that will be particularly exposed should we be fortunate to make it to the Premier League. That’s all I’m saying.

And honestly, I’d prefer to be discussing other more happy topics about the match that was (Jimmy, Geo, and Paddy’s return to form, Firpo’s continued influence, and is the Rodon-Ampadu partnership showing signs of deteriorating or was that simply a one time aberration, etc.). But I’m finding myself defending this very legitimate topic simply because so many have been outright dismissive of it. To me, that’s being an ostrich…and not a Peacock ;)

My 2 cents…

A lot of our games have been in the balance Joe, you've got to consider this when making subs, you just can't expect subs to immediately get into the game, we know DJ tends to throw himself quite easily into games (mainly coz of his leg speed) but you really can make the wrong sub very easily, and oppos might counteract this and exploit it.

[1964white]

Yes he would've been resting legs Sid for Friday, but we don't need to go looking for fault, sometimes just give credit to Boro, they went that extra mile to try and salvage something after a glorious header spurred them on, the subs were perhaps perfect at 2-4, but then all of a sudden, out of nowhere, they've got a sniff.

How do we know our fresh legs didn't actually win it for us huh ? What if he left them on and they got injured for Friday, and Boro came back to win 5-4 !

Then he'd have been shot at dawn no doubt, by the children.

I said Farke was right to make substitutions.

The fact remains, we lost our composure & panicked.

Our subs Piroe, Kamara, Anthony & James provided minimum quality on & off the ball & were poor in comparison to those they replaced. I recall one pass from Piroe.

As I posted earlier, you can see why Farke goes with his regular starters, the ones he trusts to do the business.

[1964white]

Now that's a good point ^ If you are gonna defend a lead, ffs don't leave Firpo on the pitch, did he sub Firpo i can't be arsed to look and can't remember?

Didn't Firpo make a vital header to save a certain Boro' goal in the closing minutes?

The criticism of Rodon & Firpo is ludicrous, two players who contributed hugely to earn us a victory.

Some of you need to watch a full replay of the game, you don't see all the scruffy work at the back.

Even our commentator Bryn Law, often makes the wrong call, god help him if he was commentating on a big handicap race at Royal Ascot.

[Kennyb41]

Didn't Firpo make a vital header to save a certain Boro' goal in the closing minutes.

Can't remember, but that's mainly due to my oncoming Alzheimer's or Parkinson's

[1964white]

Can't remember, but that's mainly due to my oncoming Alzheimer's or Parkinson's

I sincerely hope not!

[Kennyb41]

I said Farke was right to make substitutions.

The fact remains, we lost our composure & panicked.

Our subs Piroe, Kamara, Anthony & James provided minimum quality on the ball & were poor in comparison to those they replaced. I recall one pass from Piroe.

As I posted earlier, you can see why Farke goes with his regular starters, the ones he trusts to do the business.

What if he doesn't make any subs Sid, and we lost 5-4 ? How do we know that wouldn't have happened, is there no credit at all given to Boro for the last 15 ?

And yes of course any manager in the Championship is gonna have his preferred starters, especially after how he built from scratch, we ain't no Citeh Sid.

[Kennyb41]

I sincerely hope not!

Who are you ?

[Kennyb41]

I sincerely hope not!

It's bound to be coming my way Sid after all the partying, booze, drugs, fags i've battered thru my life, I turn 60 this year and sometimes forget to go ta bed, never mind the upmteen appointments i miss, i have to set my alarm today for someone coming to pick summert up off Ebay, otherwise i'll look at him strange when he knocks on the door.

[weasel]

I can definitely understand the possibility of concern over losing momentum. Which is why I’m a fan of him staggering the subs one at a time (albeit earlier) as opposed to the 2 and 3 at a time within the last 10 or less minutes “Hail Mary” strategy he’s consistently employed. Earlier subs permits them more time to get acclimated. He staggered the subs correctly in this one, but completely flubbed the personnel. I particularly didn’t agree with the Piroe sub in this one, especially with him being the first sub. Thought Kamara for Byram (and shifting Gray to RB) was the easy shout as the first sub. Would’ve provided some better defensive cover and ball retention while sacrificing Gray’s forward-runs at CM (which were no longer critical when we were up 4-2). And given Byram’s injury proneness, it made sense to preserve him given the injured Roberts. I mean, the injury risk has been the excuse previously for other subs being made, so why the “hall pass” for not making this one? Did you know that Byram played the full 90+!! Really?!?! I’m at a loss for words with that reality. What would Farke have done in these next two matches had Byram gone down?

I’m sorry, I just can’t concede him getting subs right in many of our matches this season. They’ve been consistently too late AND with the wrong personnel. Sometimes he gets the personnel right, but leaves little to no time for them to make an impact (ala much of Gnonto’s usage this year). But mostly, it’s the former. This is my ONLY fault with him. But I think it’s a legitimate concern. And one that will be particularly exposed should we be fortunate to make it to the Premier League. That’s all I’m saying.

And honestly, I’d prefer to be discussing other more happy topics about the match that was (Jimmy, Geo, and Paddy’s return to form, Firpo’s continued influence, and is the Rodon-Ampadu partnership showing signs of deteriorating or was that simply a one time aberration, etc.). But I’m finding myself defending this very legitimate topic simply because so many have been outright dismissive of it. To me, that’s being an ostrich…and not a Peacock ;)

My 2 cents…

I get your points totally and like you say leaving Byram on was risky. I think managers now go for two or sometimes three at a time because they only have 3 opportunites to make substitutions irrespective of the fact they are allowed to bring on 5 subs. In theory Byram has had a decent rest period and it is 4 days before the next match so should be okay.

For me bringing Piroe on was sesnsible. He generally keeps the ball well and is less likely to lose it trying something than Joseph would, at 4-2 up neat and tidy is sensible.

The Gnonto situaton, and also Antony, was a tricky one; Often they came on and made no impact. It can be argued that with more minutes they might have made more impact but equally if they made no impact in 10 minutes then are they likely to make more impact just cos they have more minutes? Our subs early on in the season came on and were generally poor, the only real exceptions being Antony scoring the third v Watford and when we turned a 2-0 defecit into a 3-2 win at Noriwch. For me I'd be questioning Gnonto's attitude earlier on in the season rather than whether Farke brought him on too late. I feel similar to how Farke explained the Cresswell situation he wants players to have the right attitude and won't simply give them game time unless they show they deserve it.

But like you say better things to discuss and hopefully our slump is over and we can kick o again.

[Sean_Nile]

It's bound to be coming my way Sid after all the partying, booze, drugs, fags i've battered thru my life, I turn 60 this year and sometimes forget to go ta bed, never mind the upmteen appointments i miss, i have to set my alarm today for someone coming to pick summert up off Ebay, otherwise i'll look at him strange when he knocks on the door.

Not to worry, you'll make a new friend everyday.

[1964white]

What if he doesn't make any subs Sid, and we lost 5-4 ? How do we know that wouldn't have happened, is there no credit at all given to Boro for the last 15 ?

And yes of course any manager in the Championship is gonna have his preferred starters, especially after how he built from scratch, we ain't no Citeh Sid.

Farke had to make subs, especially with the score at 2-4, I just wish those who come on perform well.

[1964white]

It's bound to be coming my way Sid after all the partying, booze, drugs, fags i've battered thru my life, I turn 60 this year and sometimes forget to go ta bed, never mind the upmteen appointments i miss, i have to set my alarm today for someone coming to pick summert up off Ebay, otherwise i'll look at him strange when he knocks on the door.

We all forget things as we age.

[1964white]

Excellent discussion on here from the four of them, defending the criticism of Meslier, Firpo & Bamford.

[JoeDenver]

A lot of our games have been in the balance Joe, you've got to consider this when making subs, you just can't expect subs to immediately get into the game, we know DJ tends to throw himself quite easily into games (mainly coz of his leg speed) but you really can make the wrong sub very easily, and oppos might counteract this and exploit it.

Totally understand, Kenny. Just think he’s overly cautious with making them and doesn’t permit the subs enough time to get into the game (as well as getting the personnel wrong when they are made). Too many games have necessitated a sub being made around the 60 minute mark (some even earlier). Another sub could be made 15 min later, thus leaving a final sub of 2-3 men in the last 5-10 min if he chooses. And he doesn’t have to use all of them…I just want him to manage the ones he does make more effectively.

This in stark contrast to how he sets us up as we’re generally set up properly at the start. No complaints there at all.

All good, otherwise. Still can’t believe the run of form of Firpo and how Farke has gotten something out of him. Farke wasn’t kidding when he said he’s “a fan of Junior Firpo”.

And on my other thought, I think the Rodon-Ampadu pairing just had a one-time blip. Think that will return back to consistency for the next two matches.

[JoeDenver]

I get your points totally and like you say leaving Byram on was risky. I think managers now go for two or sometimes three at a time because they only have 3 opportunites to make substitutions irrespective of the fact they are allowed to bring on 5 subs. In theory Byram has had a decent rest period and it is 4 days before the next match so should be okay.

For me bringing Piroe on was sesnsible. He generally keeps the ball well and is less likely to lose it trying something than Joseph would, at 4-2 up neat and tidy is sensible.

The Gnonto situaton, and also Antony, was a tricky one; Often they came on and made no impact. It can be argued that with more minutes they might have made more impact but equally if they made no impact in 10 minutes then are they likely to make more impact just cos they have more minutes? Our subs early on in the season came on and were generally poor, the only real exceptions being Antony scoring the third v Watford and when we turned a 2-0 defecit into a 3-2 win at Noriwch. For me I'd be questioning Gnonto's attitude earlier on in the season rather than whether Farke brought him on too late. I feel similar to how Farke explained the Cresswell situation he wants players to have the right attitude and won't simply give them game time unless they show they deserve it.

But like you say better things to discuss and hopefully our slump is over and we can kick o again.

Generally in agreement there weasel. Piroe is tricky as I think he’s trying to impress to get more minutes and by extension ends up losing the ball more by trying to make things happen. Again, Kamara from a neat and tidy perspective, made so much more sense to me (especially given the Byram risk). Joseph could be more effective from a pressing/energy standpoint vs. Piroe to help disrupt opposition attacks. But call that a feeling as there’s not enough evidence to support that, I concede.

As for other things re: the match, as I just mentioned to Kenny, I’m flummoxed about Firpo’s emergence and am hoping it can continue for these last two matches. I think that one area will be key for our promotion push, I.e., getting the added offensive contribution while not gettting skinned defensively.

Also, given Byram’s full 90, I suspect that he’ll rotate for QPR and have Kamara back in midfield with Gray at RB. Seems to be the most sensible thing to do from a rest/rotation standpoint. Just feel Byram needs to me managed even with us only having two games left. Although, I admit if Roberts is looking like he can be fit for Southampton, a big unknown, that could be managed differently. What do you think?

[weasel]

And on my other thought, I think the Rodon-Ampadu pairing just had a one-time blip. Think that will return back to consistency for the next two matches.

I think it was a blip.

The first goal was a series of unfortunae events. Gnonto was fouled, in my opinion, the bloke pushed him over. The throughball was going nowhere till Gruev diverted it. Rodon then gets a great tackle in but the ball falls perfectly for the Boro player to tap in. No blame for me in the defence for that goal.

The second one and we crowded the scorer out. Credit to him for hitting a decent shot but even then I think it should have been saved. Agains defensively I think they did okay.

Third goal and again I think defensively they did okay. I have no problem with the striker winning the header, I think as a defender there you are generally not to bothered about him winning the header as you would be focusing more on the players running in who might get on the end of a knock down, you aren't really expecting him to score from there.

[weasel]

Also, given Byram’s full 90, I suspect that he’ll rotate for QPR and have Kamara back in midfield with Gray at RB. Seems to be the most sensible thing to do from a rest/rotation standpoint. Just feel Byram needs to me managed even with us only having two games left. Although, I admit if Roberts is looking like he can be fit for Southampton, a big unknown, that could be managed differently. What do you think?

I think that if Roberts is fit for Southampton he would only be on the bench unless he is needed to start or if the result is irrelevant. I would expect Farke to go with either Gray or Byram. Not sure for Friday as Farke may decide to play with Kamara in the middle to make us tighter and harder to break down in the hope that we can control the game in our more usual manner. However I don't really know how QPR like to play and it may be that Farke would rather it becomes the type of game that we saw when we played both Ipswich and Boro away and we try to outscore them and have it that we allow them to attack us more in the knowledge it will leave gaps.

[Kennyb41]

I think that if Roberts is fit for Southampton he would only be on the bench unless he is needed to start or if the result is irrelevant. I would expect Farke to go with either Gray or Byram. Not sure for Friday as Farke may decide to play with Kamara in the middle to make us tighter and harder to break down in the hope that we can control the game in our more usual manner. However I don't really know how QPR like to play and it may be that Farke would rather it becomes the type of game that we saw when we played both Ipswich and Boro away and we try to outscore them and have it that we allow them to attack us more in the knowledge it will leave gaps.

I'll be surprised if he changes that winning team, i just hope QPR don't lock up for 1pt, and he sends them out with the same instructions.

[GreennWhite]

Loftus Road is a tight little pitch and isn't going to be easy to stretch them out when we have the ball. I doubt they will be trying to play attacking expansive football so this is going to be a tricky game. Like most games the key will be for us to score first and take a lot of pressure off ourselves.
A point in this game is absolutely no good and the longer the game goes on without us scoring the more the nerves will kick in, for the fans that is