Norwich City V Leeds Utd - Match Thread - Post Match Debate

[Kennyb41]

The 49ers would surely have more ambition than dumb and dumber, but Farke wouldn't be answer if we would want to be a long term PL club. But anyway,we have to get there first, and he is fine for a promotion chasing club.

And what do you base this on ?

[Chilli D]

As i didn't follow the match thread yesterday I've been reading it this morning from the start of the game until half time. Boy oh boy do some people need to eat a large slice of humble pie today
Some of the comments are just unbelievable "we wasted the opportunity to make ground on Ipswich" "Our forwards couldn't hit a barn door" etc etc

[GreennWhite]

As i didn't follow the match thread yesterday I've been reading it this morning from the start of the game until half time. Boy oh boy do some people need to eat a large slice of humble pie today
Some of the comments are just unbelievable "we wasted the opportunity to make ground on Ipswich" "Our forwards couldn't hit a barn door" etc etc

So true Chilli, i was thinking the same yesterday when the final whistle sounded.
It must be hard for some of our fans to have to cope with Leeds winning, as all they seem to do is wait for something, anything to go wrong so they can pop up and start to complain.
Some fans will never ever be happy as it goes against their negative approach to life in general.

[Kennyb41]

Funny how some folk see things differently innit....COPY N PASTE BELOW !!!!!


Gray stars for Leeds United vs. Norwich City
According to Sofascore, no player made more tackles than Gray’s nine yesterday.

He also made two interceptions are won nine of his 12 duels, showing exceptional tenacity for such a young player.

Gray managed to complete 32 of his 38 passes and took 70 touches at right-back, showcasing the confidence he has on the ball that he normally uses in the middle of the pitch.

The 17-year-old has been impressing all season after making his senior debut on the opening day of the campaign.

The ‘unbelievable’ teenager was only playing at full-back for the second time this season and looked assured on and off the ball.

The 17-year-old has given his manager another option in that position and is surely one of the most exciting talents in the second tier right now.

Gray showed against Norwich that he’s more than good enough to start for Leeds United every week this season.

Farke will know he has to manage his minutes, especially in the busiest periods of the campaign.

However, when a player is in the form that Gray is in, it’s hard to find the right time to take him out of the side.

[Clacton White]

It was a good win , tough place to go and get points really as they are a decent side. Spirited fight back from Leeds . I was out pretty much all day and didn't know the score until I got home and was well happy . Had I known that it was 2-0 at one stage it might have put mockers on my walk a bit ( did 10 miles out in Essex countryside, mostly off-road ) . It's been so long since there were 3 wins in a row I actually can't remember it .... certainly pre Marsch .

[geronimo]

I think he has used his bench very poorly in the past but did well today.

I think his setup away from home has often been questionable. Our shots against conceded literally doubles, our shots for also drops from 2nd highest to 7th.

Our possession drops from a 62% home average to only just over 50% away (was below 50 before today).

We concede more than twice as many goals away from home which given we clearly concede possession more thus concede more chances is a clear correlation.

Why does he adopt this different setup away from home? I don't know.

He didn't at Norwich, the possession stats home and away both seasons was practically identical.

So this is clearly a conscious decision on his part.

Maybe it's to try and concede fewer chances? It doesn't work.

Maybe its because he had developed a reputation for his teams being defensively iffy so be a bit more Conservative away from home.

Only he can answer that but it hasn't worked for us.

The passive more sit back setup away from home has caused us problems, even first half today.

So that would be my main gripe as that to me is clear tactical plan and that is on Farke.

It's noticeable Maresca and McKenna don't have this wildly different approach home and away, Leicester still average well over 50% possession and largely control games and Ipswich only differ a few percent so the tactics for both of them are familiar and normal.

Indeed Fulham, Burnley, us under Bielsa, Farke himself at Norwich. None of the recent league title winners had the difference in style away vs home that we seem to be using and I really don't understand it.

I get changing the setup in the Premier League against largely better squads, in this league with ours? No I don't.

I'll probably be accused of negativity for this but I think questioning tactical choices is fair right? And you did ask.

But am I happy with the win today, yes of course and I give Farke credit for the subs

No constructive criticism allowed cjjay you ain't allowed to have an opinion that goes against the clapper majority because it's too negative
All the usual suspects are out in force knocking one out because we have won three in a row
The fact we still need to keep winning every week because we are miles behind the top two if Ipswich win their game in hand is irrelevant

[onemoreslogan]

Yes I did ask - as I was curious.

If I look at the stats between ourselves, Leicester and Ipswich, the differences aren't massive. Leicester do have some impressive stats and no doubt they got off to a flyer right from day 1. I wonder though if I took our stats since the first international break how much better they will look.

Unlike both those managers, I still say Farke had to deal with incredible uncertainty and a very volatile situation during pre-season and the first few games - not to mention a full change of ownership. I know you think we overplay that - I for one think it was a huge factor in August and early Sept. The way this squad has settled in as little as 6 weeks is - to me - remarkable. I give most of the credit for that to Farke.
Leicester had nowhere near this level of disruption..

He has also turned a number of our players around - after the impact of the atrocious, amateurish coaching of Marsh and then caretakers - which make no mistake, left ripples throughout the season. Struijk is a new player - better than we ever saw him. James, Meslier, even Summerville and Gnonto are much improved and more focused. Then there's Georgie - we were all screaming for his exit as little as 2 months ago - now .... the superlatives keep coming. I give that credit for all that to Farke

Also, Its hard to use your bench well when you don't have a stable squad. We are finally starting to see that stability. I have no doubt the system will get more stable.

Ipswich - well we beat them 4-3 (and could've been 6 -3 ) at their homeground "fortress". Good team, but they won't end the season in second place.

The away set-up thing you talk about is odd, I admit - but let's see where things go.

I think to say his performance this season so far has been 'mediocre' is not accurate.You and I can just agree to disagree on that. I give him 8/10 - given all the above.

If I look at the big picture, I am extremely happy with our manager and where he brought us. I wouldn't swop him and frankly think all fans need to get behind him. Criticism is fine and can be healthy (no I don't think you're being negative). But we also have to be behind our squad fairly and squarely and not be fickle. This is a long journey. Lets not repeat the error we made with Bielsa.

Excellent post! I agree with most of this. Considering the situation he was dealing with, Farke has been pitch perfect. Can you imagine Marsch coping with the holdouts and runaways and incomings over the summer all the while preparing and improving the willing players here for the season ahead? I shudder.

I think most managers would wilt, especially if they had only just joined the club late in the off season (don't forget how long we waited for the ownership question to be settled). Farke worked wonders and has earned my confidence. I suspect I'm not alone either as the people who really count, the players, appear to respect him.

There may be some fine tuning to be done tactically, and in a perfect world a manager should be getting more from this lineup by now. I think eventually he will. And overall I'm content with the lineup selection, the clean sheets, and the style we're seeing so far.

I think we were very, very lucky to hire him when we did because it required a remarkable man to navigate the summer he had without sinking the season. Full steam ahead Captain Farke.

[Irish Ian]

Personally, I think he was exposed by James, who can be very inconsistent helping out defensively, he can be brushed off the ball far too easily at times and has that habit of going to ground far too often unnecessarily . If Archie has Gnonto ahead of him I believe he will be more assured.

As Spence is on his way back to fitness Archie’s flirtation with the RB position is only going to be on a needs must basis. I will be surprised if James plays ahead of Spence. When he is fit we may change to a 352 on occasion.

Not sure if you saw the game but Archie was struggling doing some of the basics, acting as a disruptor , it was drawing Rodon and Ampadu across to help him too much. I would prefer Shacks there ahead of him

As you said Spence should be our go to man there when it he is fit.

[Cjay]

I don’t think we were sitting back or passive against Norwich - in fact quite the reverse. The front four were closing down and trying to prevent Norwich playing out from the back. Arguably because we were so aggressive in the press when they did break out they caused us a few problems. In the first half they were winning most of the tackles and 50/50’s because we were not compact. He tweaked this in the 2nd half and we pretty much controlled the game.

I think your pursuit of perfection is a pointless task.

When Bielsa was in charge you often raised the issue of there is no point playing well if you do not get the 3 points. Well we are doing both now and still you want more. Not sure how you derive any enjoyment out of the game CJAY.

If we win I'm happy I was just answering a more general question about Farke.

If we win the next 2 we reach the magical 2ppg mark, that for me is decent.

But do I think he is doing a great job? Overachieving with what he has like Mckenna or Maresca or Bielsa did? No.

Let's see where we are after 15 games.

Elements of the style are very enjoyable, but bits of it worry me same as they did when we first appointed him.

[JoeDenver]

Wow! What a comeback! I had to go coach my daughter’s “soccer” game at halftime and had to wait until later in the day to catch the second half. What a gutsy “jailbreak” decision to take off Byram and Kamara and bring on Gnonto and Bamford!! Crazy! I think that perplexed Wagner, although I felt that left us incredibly vulnerable in the back…thankfully, Norwich never exploited that.

What a second half by Jimmy and Georginio Rutter!! Just electric! So much more to say, but very encouraging second half after suffering through such a lethargic first half. Was also surprised he kept Archie in for the whole 90.

Now to get caught up on the forum posts…

[Wes Lee Street]

Just a few thoughts.

1. I think Archie has been sensational in midfield. I often look at his pass to Sinistera (Ipswich, extended highlights, third goal). I want to see him back there so I hope Spence will return very soon. But Gray needs a rest sometime. I would like to see Gruev play the full game against Huddersfield (Kamara on the bench). We must find out what Gruev can do, and 2 minutes will not tell us that. Bulgaria were poor in their last game, but Gruev looks very comfortable on the ball (to this viewer), and I feel certain that we are going to need him.

2. Chilli D. I agree. So can we now try to forgive posters who are feeling very emotional while they are watching a stream of Leeds going 2-0 down. I will try not to post on the matchday thread while games are in progress, and if I do I will probably be trying to delete any comments which seem hasty, with hindsight.

3. There seems to be a hell of a lot on the shoulders of Ampadu Du Du. It is a long season. (See thought 1).

4. I think Farke has been sensational. He knew that we were in massive trouble when we went to Birmingham, literally short of numbers, and he knew that the season would entail an element of catch up, as he painstakingly cleaned up someone else's mess. I can't fault him, other than his "punishment" of Rodon (if that is what it was) when he picked his team for Southampton. I think he will get both the opportunity, and considerable funds, when we get the promotion that we all crave.

[John in Louisiana]

Not sure if you saw the game but Archie was struggling doing some of the basics, acting as a disruptor , it was drawing Rodon and Ampadu across to help him too much. I would prefer Shacks there ahead of him

As you said Spence should be our go to man there when it he is fit.

Have to agree; Archie's best position is in the midfield. He wasn't dire yesterday by any stretch, but he was exposed a fair amount. Have to put someone of his tender years in a place where he can excel.

One thing I did notice....

When Farke went to the 3-1-6 ( ) formation late in the game, it required the forwards do a tremendous amount of work, and they were up to it. Bamford's beautiful headed pass to Rutter was made from inside our own box, and Rutter's pass to Summerville was from barely outside it. They both ran hard up the pitch in pursuit, but Summerville's speed left everyone on both sides in his wake. To be able to make that lung-busting sprint that deep into the match was just as stunning as the goal that won it.

[1964white]

Just a few thoughts.

1. I think Archie has been sensational in midfield. I often look at his pass to Sinistera (Ipswich, extended highlights, third goal). I want to see him back there so I hope Spence will return very soon. But Gray needs a rest sometime. I would like to see Gruev play the full game against Huddersfield (Kamara on the bench). We must find out what Gruev can do, and 2 minutes will not tell us that. Bulgaria were poor in their last game, but Gruev looks very comfortable on the ball (to this viewer), and I feel certain that we are going to need him.

2. Chilli D. I agree. So can we now try to forgive posters who are feeling very emotional while they are watching a stream of Leeds going 2-0 down. I will try not to post on the matchday thread while games are in progress, and if I do I will probably be trying to delete any comments which seem hasty, with hindsight.

3. There seems to be a hell of a lot on the shoulders of Ampadu Du Du. It is a long season. (See thought 1).

4. I think Farke has been sensational. He knew that we were in massive trouble when we went to Birmingham, literally short of numbers, and he knew that the season would entail an element of catch up, as he painstakingly cleaned up someone else's mess. I can't fault him, other than his "punishment" of Rodon (if that is what it was) when he picked his team for Southampton. I think he will get both the opportunity, and considerable funds, when we get the promotion that we all crave.

Good post, West Lee

[JoeDenver]

45 mins to play.

It’s a funny old game.

How prescient these words were!!

[andrewjohnsmith]

Just a few thoughts.

1. I think Archie has been sensational in midfield. I often look at his pass to Sinistera (Ipswich, extended highlights, third goal). I want to see him back there so I hope Spence will return very soon. But Gray needs a rest sometime. I would like to see Gruev play the full game against Huddersfield (Kamara on the bench). We must find out what Gruev can do, and 2 minutes will not tell us that. Bulgaria were poor in their last game, but Gruev looks very comfortable on the ball (to this viewer), and I feel certain that we are going to need him.

2. Chilli D. I agree. So can we now try to forgive posters who are feeling very emotional while they are watching a stream of Leeds going 2-0 down. I will try not to post on the matchday thread while games are in progress, and if I do I will probably be trying to delete any comments which seem hasty, with hindsight.

3. There seems to be a hell of a lot on the shoulders of Ampadu Du Du. It is a long season. (See thought 1).

4. I think Farke has been sensational. He knew that we were in massive trouble when we went to Birmingham, literally short of numbers, and he knew that the season would entail an element of catch up, as he painstakingly cleaned up someone else's mess. I can't fault him, other than his "punishment" of Rodon (if that is what it was) when he picked his team for Southampton. I think he will get both the opportunity, and considerable funds, when we get the promotion that we all crave.

Not sure I agree that "we" need to see what Gruev can do. I think Farke knows already.

But I agree with the the rest. Many thought Archie would need a rest after a busy international break. And now we've got 3 games in a week. Will be interesting to see what changes we make. I would like to see him playing most of his games in midfield. I wonder about Shackleton at RB. He's done a good job this season but then really struggled when he played RB against Southampton.

The midfield does rely a lot on Ampadu. But I think Kamara has done a good job. And as we said Gray ought to be in midfield. And maybe Farke will allow us to see what Gruev can do. It's interesting that he let Forshaw go. That probably means he rates all our current options (including Gruev) higher than Forshaw.

[BobHirst]

I watched the first half and then had to go out to watch my 6 year old grand daughter's soccer game. I had mixed feelings about the half I had just seen. We had produced enough chances to be at least even but the finishing was again not up to par. I wasn't in complete despair as I thought we were playing reasonably well but I must admit I was nicely shocked when I saw the final score later in the day.
Some nice goals too.
Oh btw my grand daughter's team won and she scored a goal

[mentalcase]

Not sure I agree that "we" need to see what Gruev can do. I think Farke knows already.

But I agree with the the rest. Many thought Archie would need a rest after a busy international break. And now we've got 3 games in a week. Will be interesting to see what changes we make. I would like to see him playing most of his games in midfield. I wonder about Shackleton at RB. He's done a good job this season but then really struggled when he played RB against Southampton.

The midfield does rely a lot on Ampadu. But I think Kamara has done a good job. And as we said Gray ought to be in midfield. And maybe Farke will allow us to see what Gruev can do. It's interesting that he let Forshaw go. That probably means he rates all our current options (including Gruev) higher than Forshaw.

I don't think theres anything "interesting" about letting him go AJS, I rate anyone above forshaw, and it appears, so does the boss.

[John in Louisiana]

I watched the first half and then had to go out to watch my 6 year old grand daughter's soccer game. I had mixed feelings about the half I had just seen. We had produced enough chances to be at least even but the finishing was again not up to par. I wasn't in complete despair as I thought we were playing reasonably well but I must admit I was nicely shocked when I saw the final score later in the day.
Some nice goals too.
Oh btw my grand daughter's team won and she scored a goal

Give the young lass our congratulations!

[1964white]

I just watched the whole game again

We defended better in the second-half, great going forward.

Fantastic watch.

[LeedsandtheBadSeeds]

I finally got to watch the replay, thoroughly enjoyed it. Obviously disappointed in our slow start but it picked up as the first half moved on, the second goal before the half showed though that effort was there we were getting picked apart still. Second half changed with better focus and playing together, and I have say that Farke almost always seems to get the team to play better after half time. Some standouts for me is that Archie stepped up, played through a nutmeg, getting beat a couple of times, but stuck in and made a mark, especially when we changed up into playground formation.

The change in formation was another, I don’t really know what that was, an approximation of / if a 352, but somehow they all played together. Rutter is an engine that everyone else is seeming to start relying upon. In fact, in the mess that was they all kind of knew what everyone else was doing, focus added to effort even if the structure was not rigid. That to me is great sign that the team is growing under Farke. And somehow it was a way to get more of our vast attacking talent in the pitch at the same time, and Rodon and Struijk were beasts to keep the back tight and pushing forward.

Loved seeing Summerville taking the next step. I loved how his first goal was of him aiming at the post, much much much better than the vast majority of his shots before.