Cricket 2023/2024

[PhoenixUnited]

Oh dear England! Battered

[Overman]

Now that was truly a pathetic effort. Get Boycott on the blower to show them out a grind out an innings.

[weasel]

Now that was truly a pathetic effort. Get Boycott on the blower to show them out a grind out an innings.

See that is what they tried to do in the second innings. All of them trying to be more defensive and it simply doesn't work. Top scorer Mark Wood, more than double any other score and he was the only one to play shots. Ben Duckett 4 runs from 15 balls, his mind and Crawley's frazzled because of trying to play defensively and he gets run out.

[weasel]

I just feel Joe has the ability to be and look world class by staying around and punishing bad balls with beautiful shots, which in themselves would add to how Bazball could look, i think it most definitely helps others to play loose, but not Joe, i feel it affects his concentration, concentration that other cricketers don't have.

When was the last time we had such a good natural talent that can score sublime centuries at a canter, trying to hit more than he should doesn't do him any good.

It is a strange one with Root. The bizarre thing is that you think he has a better average under Bazball, don't know myself but if that is the case then it adds more support to the method. The logic is sound. Scracth around looking out of sorts get out for 10 runs from 10 overs and that lowers your average. Blast away, get out after an over, for 18 runs after hitting 3 sixes then holing out and your average is better. I think with a lot of these players they wil get a lot of quickfire 20s and out but every now and again a big hundred and it will keep the average above 40. Whereas people in the past stay in longer, are a tough wicket to get and are considered a great of the game - such as Mike Atherton who averaged just 37.7 runs for England. Yet Atherton was probably the closest we have had to Boycott in terms of being able to occupy the crease and having a sound defensive technique. Ben Duckett's test average 44.

[Kennyb41]

It is a strange one with Root. The bizarre thing is that you think he has a better average under Bazball, don't know myself but if that is the case then it adds more support to the method. The logic is sound. Scracth around looking out of sorts get out for 10 runs from 10 overs and that lowers your average. Blast away, get out after an over, for 18 runs after hitting 3 sixes then holing out and your average is better. I think with a lot of these players they wil get a lot of quickfire 20s and out but every now and again a big hundred and it will keep the average above 40. Whereas people in the past stay in longer, are a tough wicket to get and are considered a great of the game - such as Mike Atherton who averaged just 37.7 runs for England. Yet Atherton was probably the closest we have had to Boycott in terms of being able to occupy the crease and having a sound defensive technique. Ben Duckett's test average 44.

I was blown away tbh when i read it, and have no idea if it's true myself, it was on the live cricket updates on the bbc sport site.
Shirley there's got to be a case for an anchor carrying their bat if we have such a player, i'm absolutely all for it to continue if we have or we haven't, I've felt for ages now Joe really has lost his touch and is completely out of knick. Some of his earlier test centuries have been sublime and not in slug mode, he ticks along just fine, of late he just seems to be getting himself out more often than he should.
I just feel he could do with a break to re gather his thoughts and back to basics, we haven't had many cricketers with such a natural talent and i feel other teams are glad he is doing this.

[Kennyb41]

Aggers :

Stokes and McCullum have managed to fill largely the same players with confidence and revolutionise how they go about their game.

It has been brilliant.

But now, after England's largest defeat in terms of runs since World War Two, the Bazball approach is at a crossroads.

It got England out of their terrible trot of one win in 17 matches.

It got them winning again, made people rave about about their performances and brought eyes to the longest format.

From that perspective, it has done its job, but if you want to be successful against the best teams you cannot play like that all the time.

If you do you will lose and lose by 434 runs, as England did in Rajkot.

Their attacking style should not be binned altogether, of course. But now is the time for this team to be more sensible, more flexible, in how they play.

You can debate the tired bowling to Yashavsi Jaiswal as he hit another fine double century or the collapse on the fourth day, this Test was lost because of how England batted in their first innings on that third morning.

They started 238 runs behind India at 207-2 and in a position where, had they batted sensibly, they could have ended the day 50 or 60 runs in front - possibly even more.

Instead, they were aggressive and lost their last eight wickets for 95 runs, which handed India the advantage.

The epitome of it all was Joe Root, who decided 20 minutes into the day to play his reverse scoop off Jasprit Bumrah and was caught for 18.

In any match the impact on both teams of the best player getting out is immense. For England it was a real hammer blow while India gained an easy win.

Root has to be greedier - 77 runs across six innings in this series is a poor return for anyone, never mind someone of his calibre.

Someone like Ben Duckett should continue to play the Bazball way. His 153 in the first innings was brilliant and an example of how certain players can be transformed by the liberation of England's plan.

Root, though, like others in this batting line-up, is struggling.

We heard from Duckett and Stokes during this match, with the pair saying this is the way they play and they don't care about other opinions.

That is fine saying it to us but I hope there is more honesty than that in the dressing room.

Stokes is very competitive. I cannot imagine he enjoys being captain of a team that loses like this - a result that will be spoken about for years to come, given the hiding England received.

There needs to be scope for players to tighten up their game and have a bit more common sense. It is screamingly obvious they need to play a slightly different way.

They will not face criticism for playing in a tighter, more circumspect fashion at times. They would actually gain respect for it.

[weasel]

Aggers just doesn't get i. Asking Crawley and Duckett, amongst others, to tighten up will just see them getting out for very few runs as they will simply get out to a good ball. If they try and defend they are more likely to get out than if they attack the ball. We lost because we played old engliad style. 2nd day evening session was Bazball. 200+ runs, 30 overs. Following day Root gets out, we go into our shell and 7 wickets go for nothing as we try to play 'sensibly.'

2nd innings and instead of attacking we try to play 'sensibly' again. All out for f*ck all with Duckett's head scrambled.

Stokes needs to get into the changing room and tell the players to play their natural game.

WE lost because we stopped Bazballing.

[Kennyb41]

Aggers just doesn't get i. Asking Crawley and Duckett, amongst others, to tighten up will just see them getting out for very few runs as they will simply get out to a good ball. If they try and defend they are more likely to get out than if they attack the ball. We lost because we played old engliad style. 2nd day evening session was Bazball. 200+ runs, 30 overs. Following day Root gets out, we go into our shell and 7 wickets go for nothing as we try to play 'sensibly.'

2nd innings and instead of attacking we try to play 'sensibly' again. All out for f*ck all with Duckett's head scrambled.

Stokes needs to get into the changing room and tell the players to play their natural game.

WE lost because we stopped Bazballing.

In fairness he does say above Duckett should continue with Bazball

[andrewjohnsmith]

Aggers just doesn't get i. Asking Crawley and Duckett, amongst others, to tighten up will just see them getting out for very few runs as they will simply get out to a good ball. If they try and defend they are more likely to get out than if they attack the ball. We lost because we played old engliad style. 2nd day evening session was Bazball. 200+ runs, 30 overs. Following day Root gets out, we go into our shell and 7 wickets go for nothing as we try to play 'sensibly.'

2nd innings and instead of attacking we try to play 'sensibly' again. All out for f*ck all with Duckett's head scrambled.

Stokes needs to get into the changing room and tell the players to play their natural game.

WE lost because we stopped Bazballing.

I think Aggers is still fairly supportive of Bazball. He's right on Duckett. Duckett would not be a test player in any other era. He'd be one day specialist. He's been brought into the test team specifically because of the way he plays. So, absolutely agree that he should bat no other way.

It's the same with Crawley and Bairstow. Crawley is very positive and plays loose shots. Bairstow is at his best when he takes the attack to the bowlers. They're in the team for a reason and should continue to play the way they play.

Pope and Root are different. They're very technical. When they're playing well, they score runs easily. They can play their natural, techically correct game and still keep the scoreboard ticking at a decent pace. I'm ok with them playing the odd unconventional shot just to throw the bowler off his length or force a field change. But they should largely stick to playing their natural, technical games. Root's 2nd innings in the 2nd test was really bizarre. He seemed set on a mission to clatter every ball. And he was dismissed quickly. That's not his game. He should be ticking his way to 100 while others around him are on the attack.

Stokes is a paradox of what we understand as Bazball. He's often a slow starter. Often seems to struggle with his timing early in an innings. Then gets going once it clicks for him. I'd bet if you look at stats of say the first 30 balls of an innings, Root and Pope are scoring more runs than Stokes. And that's the anomaly of it.

I watched Aggers brief test career and he never cut it at this level. But his summaries are right on point. I agree with most of what he said. He did say one thing that was a little off referring to the first innings: "Instead, they were aggressive and lost their last eight wickets for 95 runs, which handed India the advantage."

A couple were aggressive. Knock Root for his dismissal. You can't really knock Duckett more miscuing in the 150's. But Bairstow and Stokes were both out in a very subdued manner. Once Root was out, 3 down, we weren't playing Bazball at all. The scoring had been very high in D2 S3. but on D3, we really slowed the scoring. Duckett, especially, really slowed the tempo.

So it wasn't really Bazball that was to blame for the underpar 1st innings total. I do think Bazball works as a whole, for several of the batsmen. But players like Root really need to be relying on their class rather than playing lottery shots. And on the subject, it was really our bowling that let us down. Our spinners performed well in the 1st couple of tests. But they're inexperienced. They seem to be feeling the pressure a bit and the Indian batsmen have probably figured them out.

[weasel]

In fairness he does say above Duckett should continue with Bazball

It's like they can't accept the good bits. You don't get into the position we were on the 2nd day playing normally. We were 450 or whatever down and most England teams would have just tried to survie that last 30 overs. Probably end the day 45-3. Instead we batter them, Pope was mighty unfortunate to be out and had halved the arrears and India were shellshocked. The journoes then go to town cos Root gets out playing a silly shot. Then everyone goes into their shell, we try to nudge and nurdle our way to the Indian total and we're all out.

1st test we don't win if Pope doesn't take the attack to them. They were shellshocked and Pope plundered the runs playign several risky shots. Pope goes in and plays the sensible way and even if he has a good innings he likely would only make 100 and we don't set them any total of note. We're going to get a lot of people out by playing attacking but if one or two batsmen get away then we get a competitive total. We try to defend and we'll make 100 to 20 all out.

[weasel]

I think Aggers is still fairly supportive of Bazball. He's right on Duckett. Duckett would not be a test player in any other era. He'd be one day specialist. He's been brought into the test team specifically because of the way he plays. So, absolutely agree that he should bat no other way.

It's the same with Crawley and Bairstow. Crawley is very positive and plays loose shots. Bairstow is at his best when he takes the attack to the bowlers. They're in the team for a reason and should continue to play the way they play.

Pope and Root are different. They're very technical. When they're playing well, they score runs easily. They can play their natural, techically correct game and still keep the scoreboard ticking at a decent pace. I'm ok with them playing the odd unconventional shot just to throw the bowler off his length or force a field change. But they should largely stick to playing their natural, technical games. Root's 2nd innings in the 2nd test was really bizarre. He seemed set on a mission to clatter every ball. And he was dismissed quickly. That's not his game. He should be ticking his way to 100 while others around him are on the attack.

Stokes is a paradox of what we understand as Bazball. He's often a slow starter. Often seems to struggle with his timing early in an innings. Then gets going once it clicks for him. I'd bet if you look at stats of say the first 30 balls of an innings, Root and Pope are scoring more runs than Stokes. And that's the anomaly of it.

I watched Aggers brief test career and he never cut it at this level. But his summaries are right on point. I agree with most of what he said. He did say one thing that was a little off referring to the first innings: "Instead, they were aggressive and lost their last eight wickets for 95 runs, which handed India the advantage."

A couple were aggressive. Knock Root for his dismissal. You can't really knock Duckett more miscuing in the 150's. But Bairstow and Stokes were both out in a very subdued manner. Once Root was out, 3 down, we weren't playing Bazball at all. The scoring had been very high in D2 S3. but on D3, we really slowed the scoring. Duckett, especially, really slowed the tempo.

So it wasn't really Bazball that was to blame for the underpar 1st innings total. I do think Bazball works as a whole, for several of the batsmen. But players like Root really need to be relying on their class rather than playing lottery shots. And on the subject, it was really our bowling that let us down. Our spinners performed well in the 1st couple of tests. But they're inexperienced. They seem to be feeling the pressure a bit and the Indian batsmen have probably figured them out.

Root definitely needs to play his way. Like you and Kenny say he will score at a decent rate, continually run 1s and 2s and tire the opposition out. Pope is probably somewhere in between . Crawley, Duckett, Bairstow, Brooks and Stokes deffo should just go all out. Like you say Stokes is a bit of an enigma and contradiction but for me he gets his eye in when he starts playign the shots and then the shots continue. Foakes can keep playing his way, his average is fine and glovework superb. The tailenders just blast it. We've seen with the likes of Broad and Wood that they can smash the ball around but can't defend so let them smash it, they might only be in for 6 balls but get 20 runs.

[Kennyb41]

Root definitely needs to play his way. Like you and Kenny say he will score at a decent rate, continually run 1s and 2s and tire the opposition out. Pope is probably somewhere in between . Crawley, Duckett, Bairstow, Brooks and Stokes deffo should just go all out. Like you say Stokes is a bit of an enigma and contradiction but for me he gets his eye in when he starts playign the shots and then the shots continue. Foakes can keep playing his way, his average is fine and glovework superb. The tailenders just blast it. We've seen with the likes of Broad and Wood that they can smash the ball around but can't defend so let them smash it, they might only be in for 6 balls but get 20 runs.

That's it for me ^

Tell everyone "just get out there and play how the hell you feel comfortable on that particular day, and what comes natural to you"

Joe is better taking on the bowler in a controlled manner to torment him.
Most of ours including all those you've named just get out there and give it a crack, someone will make a big one, maybe 2.

Ben Stokes - I think Ben can do a bit of both depending on the situation.

My main point is, just Joe - It's not his game, and it's making him a lesser threat, which i'm pretty sure the oppo's are happy to see him get himself out.

[Kennyb41]

Michael Vaughan

Former England captain

Joe is playing like the Joe we have watched and loved for many years.

From the beeb ^

[Kennyb41]

Thank fck for that Joe, he's so hard to get out when he concentrates, make the fckers get you out, and don't give them your wicket, hopefully it is a tough wicket and our bowlers can get into them.

Sir Alastair Cook

Former England captain on TNT Sports

It was a fantastic day but a strange one.

At 112-5, there were some criticisms of England but there was also some very good bowling from India.

And then there weren't as many demons in the pitch but it was a masterclass from Joe Root. I know how much he hates it when he's not contributing.

He has defied it all to play that innings. He's gone back to his basics and batted time, and that class will always shine through.

[Kennyb41]

Well this morning seems to be everything i wanted, let those that are happiest to hit out hit out if that's their best game, but not Joe, when he concentrates is when he's at his best and he can take bowlers to task. Don't give them your wicket Joe make them have to get it.

From the beeb :

Joe Root's innings is even more remarkable given the scenes when he came to the crease.

In the first two hours the ball was doing all sorts and England lost five wickets.

Zak Crawley took the aggressive option and, having already been bowled off a no-ball on four, crashed 42 from 42 balls in response.

That gave England a decent start in the circumstances but debutant seamer Akash Deep took two wickets in an over as India hit back.

Deep was majestic. He was the one to bowl Crawley with a no-ball but then had Ben Duckett caught behind, Ollie Pope trapped before knocking over Crawley for a second time.

Jonny Bairstow counter-attacked well with 38 from 35 balls until he was pinned lbw by Ravichandran Ashwin on the sweep and, on the stroke of the interval, Ben Stokes got one that effectively rolled from Ravindra Jadeja to leave England five down.

[weasel]

Yeah no doubt all the anti-Bazballers will be out in force celebrating the slowness of Root's traditional century. But like you say Kenny players have to play their way and Root and Foakes are probably the only ones that are suited to grinding it out - Root to be fair can play any way he wants as he is so talented but he is also the only batsman we have that can defend and attack equally well.

Crawley was getting beaten all ends up, a walking wicket. So he smashes out and gets 42. If he tried to defend then he is still going to get out but likely doesn't get double figures. Duckett tried to reign himself in and got a low score. Bairstow, like Crawley, is going to struggle to defend so hit out and at least made a contribution. 38 is decent enough on a pitch with demons. The delivery to Stokes shows what can happen and basically you are going to get out to that whether you are defending or attacking.

Ideal scenario now is that the tailenders have a bit of a bash, Root joins in and we can add another hundred. No point in the tailenders trying to simply block it out and leave it solely to Root. All that will do is make it so we either tick along at 3 an over and at some point the tailenders get out or that it makes Root have to go all out attack, not run the singles etc and make it more likely he gets out. Let the tailenders play their way and Root can use his judgement and keep things ticking over, Root can score at a run a ball without having to try risky shots, i.e. him not having to score solely in 4s and 6s and then take a single with the last ball to monoploise the strike.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Really what we've been saying on this forum. Bazball is great. But Root should play to his strength. His class.

[weasel]

Really what we've been saying on this forum. Bazball is great. But Root should play to his strength. His class.

Indeed. Every player should play to their strengths.

[Kennyb41]

Yeah no doubt all the anti-Bazballers will be out in force celebrating the slowness of Root's traditional century. But like you say Kenny players have to play their way and Root and Foakes are probably the only ones that are suited to grinding it out - Root to be fair can play any way he wants as he is so talented but he is also the only batsman we have that can defend and attack equally well.

Crawley was getting beaten all ends up, a walking wicket. So he smashes out and gets 42. If he tried to defend then he is still going to get out but likely doesn't get double figures. Duckett tried to reign himself in and got a low score. Bairstow, like Crawley, is going to struggle to defend so hit out and at least made a contribution. 38 is decent enough on a pitch with demons. The delivery to Stokes shows what can happen and basically you are going to get out to that whether you are defending or attacking.

Ideal scenario now is that the tailenders have a bit of a bash, Root joins in and we can add another hundred. No point in the tailenders trying to simply block it out and leave it solely to Root. All that will do is make it so we either tick along at 3 an over and at some point the tailenders get out or that it makes Root have to go all out attack, not run the singles etc and make it more likely he gets out. Let the tailenders play their way and Root can use his judgement and keep things ticking over, Root can score at a run a ball without having to try risky shots, i.e. him not having to score solely in 4s and 6s and then take a single with the last ball to monoploise the strike.

I too have no doubt Crawley would be gone for single figures trying to defend his wicket, his natural talent is striking the ball well, get runs on the board asap.
The tailenders now, just play your own game, get runs on the board, but try and get Joe on strike, then Joe just carry on picking the right ball to hit, time is not an issue at all, doesn't have to be total crash bang wallop, controlled aggression can also wear down the oppo's. Joe has the talent to annoy the fcking livin daylights out of a bowler, Shirley that's also gotta put a smile on his face.

I also think it's more entertaining for us, having such a talented batsman at one end who's no slouch playing freely, and a Stokes type at the other.

just watching Joes stance and variety of shots when he's fully on it is superb stuff, it just doesn't suit him or his game to throw his arms, he's better than that, a lot better.

[andrewjohnsmith]

In place for Day 2. 8 pm in California.

Hope that Root can add a few more