Playoffs is our destiny

[Sara]

Why? How?
What do you mean by that?

In the sense that it's a game of opinions, and also one that hinges on so many factors and incidents that are impossible to predict.

That being a given, the way we respond to it is probably as much to do with our own tendencies towards optimism or pessimism.

It isn't actually possible to say how the season will pan out, so we probably focus on the factors that confirm our predisposition. There are at least as many things going right as going wrong, yet here we are predicting disaster a quarter of the way through the season.

That predisposition may, indeed, be coloured by years of disappointment, but it's a shame if that clouds our enjoyment of watching Bielsa's football in the here and now.

That's my thought on it, anyway.

[dezzy]

In the sense that it's a game of opinions, and also one that hinges on so many factors and incidents that are impossible to predict.

That being a given, the way we respond to it is probably as much to do with our own tendencies towards optimism or pessimism.

It isn't actually possible to say how the season will pan out, so we probably focus on the factors that confirm our predisposition. There are at least as many things going right as going wrong, yet here we are predicting disaster a quarter of the way through the season.

That predisposition may, indeed, be coloured by years of disappointment, but it's a shame if that clouds our enjoyment of watching Bielsa's football in the here and now.

That's my thought on it, anyway.

Absolutely spot on.

[gotagetz]

Imo this is THE hardest league to get out if and to do that owners and managers should think big. Pretty football is good but there needs to be some bite all around the pitch. I honestly thought that we'd be right there at the end of this season but at the moment I feel we might even miss out on the playoffs.
Quality proven players at this level mixed with the odd youngster is what we need.

[Sara]

Quality, proven players? Is that what Norwich and Sheff U had? What about Stoke's squad? Weren't they supposed to be pissing the league until they appointed a couple of clueless managers?

The teams that do well seem to be the ones that have a cohesive vision, and are more than the sum of their parts. The financial structure of the league now makes it increasingly difficult to buy your way out of it, unless it's through the trapdoor like Bolton.

[gessa]

I'm pretty certain have fitted that criteria too, bending the ffp along the way and are still here, after a number of years doing it.

[1964white]

I believe this is the weakest championship in many years emphasised by the fact only four points divide the top ten clubs.

Every team seem much of a muchness short on a winning mentality & consistency.

Because of those two factors we should be capable of staying in the pack, right now I've lost all faith with my early season prediction that we'll go up automatically.

We have a habit of beating ourselves & if we don't the officials tend to step in & make the game difficult for us. We also have a soft underbelly & can fall apart at any given moment. These traits plus injuries, suspensions, lack of nous/leadership & the vulnerability of our squad in certain positions could once again be our downfall.

[1964white]

We’ve 1 less point than what we had at the same stage last season.

However the way we’ve started has a lot of similarities to the second season Bielsa had at Marseille.

[onemoreslogan]

My, my. A lot of doom and gloom around here.

Certainly, things do look grim at the moment but after only 11 matches I'm a long way from ready to throw in the towel. We are still only 2 points off top and by any account we've had a terrible run of luck.

But where luck is concerned I believe that everything finds its level, and the worm will turn for this team. The fundamentals are there even if the finish isn't. And I think that last bit will improve once Pablo comes back and we start getting the breaks that we are due.

This iteration of the league is, as others have mentioned, a weak one. Promotion is very much in play and I have faith we're going to get there this year. At this point in the campaign, I'd rather be looking ahead than over my shoulder anyway.

[Oscar]

I don't think the January transfer window will make a difference.
As much as I think there's areas we could/need to strengthen in. I honestly don't see it being the difference between us finishing top 6 or in the top 2.

Unless there's an injury crisis the signings simply won't come into the team straightaway and at the very most will be coming off the bench trying to make an impact. Casilla, White and Douglas are the only signings we have made during the Bielsa era who have gone straight into the team, Douglas went straight into the team because we didn't have another fully fit LB at the club, White went in because Berardi was suspended and Kiko went in because of how bad BPF had been.

Considering Costa arrived right at the start of the window and had a full pre season to adapt to Bielsa ball but still hasn't become a first team regular, despite Harrison's dreadful end product. I would be amazed if a January signing goes straight into the starting 11 and changes our season like Tyrone Mings for Villa last season or Mitrovic for Fulham the season before that. Any new signing won't have the time to get fit enough to adapt to our style to go straight into the team it will take months unless there are injuries/suspensions.

Tired of seeing the same players who froze in the big games/high pressure moments last season doing similar again this season but still being given chances week in week out. Have to see more of players like Roberts + Nketiah and possibly even Jack Clarke as well if we are to have a hope of solving this issue.

Roberts embraced the pressure last season the bigger the game the better he played, West Brom at home and then Sheffield Wednesday at home probably two of the best performances I have seen from a number 10 for Leeds. He was a man of the match contender in virtually every game during those last 2 months when everyone else Ayling+Dallas aside individually were playing dreadfully. A lot gets made of the fact he didn't score in the 10 role but he couldn't have had much less luck hit the bar against the blades, 2 wonder saves from Westwood vs Wednesday and had a fair few chances. Yes that element is disappointing but the point is he plays without fear and we need that in this team atm all our attacking players look terrified of making mistakes. FWIW I think Roberts will get goals in that position as he gets more and more used to it and the different goalscoring movements he needs to make. I honestly think he could develop into an excellent player he's the most naturally gifted young player we have had since Cook imo and is that level of talent.

Eddie has already earned us 4 points coming on in tricky situtations vs Brentford and Barnsley, he didn't freeze in a high pressure situation he delivered.

Clarke first half of last season often came on when we were struggling and changed the momentum of games, yes he's not at those levels atm nowehere near it in fact but he's 18 and has no chance of getting to those levels if he's not given a chance or some minutes.

Quality is an issue in some areas but it's the mentality that worries me much more and will be the number one thing that could stop us getting promoted.

[SG90]

Imo this is THE hardest league to get out if and to do that owners and managers should think big. Pretty football is good but there needs to be some bite all around the pitch. I honestly thought that we'd be right there at the end of this season but at the moment I feel we might even miss out on the playoffs.
Quality proven players at this level mixed with the odd youngster is what we need.

Quality proven players at this level like Douglas, Forshaw, Bamford you mean? No we need players who are above this level, players like Saiz etc but we have no scouting team under Orta, just sign anyone who played for Boro or Wolves.

[weasel]

Unless there's an injury crisis the signings simply won't come into the team straightaway and at the very most will be coming off the bench trying to make an impact. Casilla, White and Douglas are the only signings we have made during the Bielsa era who have gone straight into the team, Douglas went straight into the team because we didn't have another fully fit LB at the club, White went in because Berardi was suspended and Kiko went in because of how bad BPF had been.

Kinnear did say when we targetted Dan James that they had identified him as someone who could come straight in and make an impact. It may have been as an impact sub but never the less it seemed that they used January to try to sign players that could fit in straightaway, as Kiko did albeit a different situation as he was a goalkeeper.

Tired of seeing the same players who froze in the big games/high pressure moments last season doing similar again this season but still being given chances week in week out. Have to see more of players like Roberts + Nketiah and possibly even Jack Clarke as well if we are to have a hope of solving this issue.

I don't really know how you can say that. We didn't freeze against WBA last season or this and both times it was huge pressure games that we went into after a bad result. What you have to take into consideration is that the 'big' matches will be matches against the better teams and as such they will have better players who can take advantage of a mistake or have the class to create something from nothing. We didn't freeze against Sheff Utd when we lost 1-0, Tyler Roberts hit the post against them at 0-0 and we were the better team, okay calamitous defending for their goal but even then luck went their way with their player slipping as he shot. Even in the 3-0 defeat to Norwich they got a lucky goal with the deflected free kick and then we outplayed them for most of the first half before falling 2-0 down.

Roberts embraced the pressure last season the bigger the game the better he played, but he couldn't have had much less luck

Think he also hit both posts against QPR in the cup and did seem to have no luck at all. What I did like about Roberts is that he was prepared to shoot from distance and hit the ball with power, something we desperately need in this team. I was hoping he'd start in midfield against Millwall and was perplexed at the changes Bielsa made to the starting line-up.

Eddie has already earned us 4 points coming on in tricky situtations vs Brentford and Barnsley, he didn't freeze in a high pressure situation he delivered.

Although he missed a sitter v Swansea at 0-0 so perhaps he isn't immune from 'freezing.'

Quality is an issue in some areas but it's the mentality that worries me much more and will be the number one thing that could stop us getting promoted.

It needs a mixture of everything and it isn't easy to win the first thing in football whether that is promotion or a cup. You need to be mentally strong and not panic when things go against you, such as losing a couple of games and over-reacting. You need to trust in the process that has got you into the position where promotion is a possibility and that is playing the same way, creating the same chances, being tight defensively etc. Things that we have been doing very well this season albeit some of the results haven't been great. If teams were spanking us then you worry but even in the defeats there have been enough in those performances to have gotten more out of the game. Fans go on about us repeating the same thing despite it failing but perhaps finishing 3rd last season was actually a huge over-achievement and changing things would see us do much worse. If the players aren't good enough to score 2 or 3 times when we create 20 chances then will they suddenly become better if we change the way we play and end up creating less chances, or if we play a way where we are more open and concede more will we suddenly score more to overcome the additional goals going in?

[1964white]

Quality proven players at this level like Douglas, Forshaw, Bamford you mean? No we need players who are above this level, players like Saiz etc but we have no scouting team under Orta, just sign anyone who played for Boro or Wolves.

We good at signing injury-prone players too !

In fact Forshaw was injured when we signed him for £4.5m from Boro'

[Oscar]

Kinnear did say when we targetted Dan James that they had identified him as someone who could come straight in and make an impact. It may have been as an impact sub but never the less it seemed that they used January to try to sign players that could fit in straightaway, as Kiko did albeit a different situation as he was a goalkeeper.



I don't really know how you can say that. We didn't freeze against WBA last season or this and both times it was huge pressure games that we went into after a bad result. What you have to take into consideration is that the 'big' matches will be matches against the better teams and as such they will have better players who can take advantage of a mistake or have the class to create something from nothing. We didn't freeze against Sheff Utd when we lost 1-0, Tyler Roberts hit the post against them at 0-0 and we were the better team, okay calamitous defending for their goal but even then luck went their way with their player slipping as he shot. Even in the 3-0 defeat to Norwich they got a lucky goal with the deflected free kick and then we outplayed them for most of the first half before falling 2-0 down.


Think he also hit both posts against QPR in the cup and did seem to have no luck at all. What I did like about Roberts is that he was prepared to shoot from distance and hit the ball with power, something we desperately need in this team. I was hoping he'd start in midfield against Millwall and was perplexed at the changes Bielsa made to the starting line-up.



Although he missed a sitter v Swansea at 0-0 so perhaps he isn't immune from 'freezing.'



It needs a mixture of everything and it isn't easy to win the first thing in football whether that is promotion or a cup. You need to be mentally strong and not panic when things go against you, such as losing a couple of games and over-reacting. You need to trust in the process that has got you into the position where promotion is a possibility and that is playing the same way, creating the same chances, being tight defensively etc. Things that we have been doing very well this season albeit some of the results haven't been great. If teams were spanking us then you worry but even in the defeats there have been enough in those performances to have gotten more out of the game. Fans go on about us repeating the same thing despite it failing but perhaps finishing 3rd last season was actually a huge over-achievement and changing things would see us do much worse. If the players aren't good enough to score 2 or 3 times when we create 20 chances then will they suddenly become better if we change the way we play and end up creating less chances, or if we play a way where we are more open and concede more will we suddenly score more to overcome the additional goals going in?

I'm quite sure Kinnear/Orta said similar things about Helder Costa and a few of our other signings last season that couldn't get into the team. Not saying a January signing wouldn't get minutes but disagree with the notion that January can solve our issues by bringing in player A and player B (to be fair i've not seen it on this forum) just on social media and other forums. I highly doubt we are going to sign a player who will walk into the team and make a massive difference. Another difference with Kiko was with him being a goalkeeper he didn't have the same level of concerns fitness wise as an outfield player adjusting to Bielsa's system

I don't think mentality was a problem until that Wigan game, that game and the whole way it happened seriously effected the players and I think it still does now to an extent.
I think against Norwich they had that lucky deflection for the first goal and are the last team you want to go behind against because they have the players who can hurt us when we push our players too far up in seach of the equaliser. Against Sheffield United we played well and deserved a point if not a win from that game imo.
West Brom this season was good and we showed a side to our game I liked but one swallow doesn't make a summer hopefully we can build on that but I still have my doubts.

I am a massive fan of his, he gets into so many goalscoring positions and towards the end of the season seemed to really get to know his role that only came though after he was given a run of starts. If we give him a run of starts he would become one of our key players, you would have to think the goals will come when he gets a bit more luck and he provided plenty of assists in that position too.

It's one I would expect Eddie to score but felt he did have a good impact on that particular game. In fact i'd argue Derby and Charlton (and he nearly scored in that game with a lovely improvised effort) are the only games where he hasn't had an impact. It's not just goals his pace has often forced defences back and opened up space for us. More often than not when he comes on he's coming on to try and grab the winner/equaliser so high pressure situations and he looks like scoring almost every time he comes on. He's only been given two starts (albeit in the cup) and scored in both games. I'm not sure what more he has to do to get more minutes. That's not me having a go at Bamford I think Bamford has improved a lot on last season but I would like to see more rotation between the two strikers especially when we have 3 games in a week and that Bamford for all his excellent centre forward play hasn't scored for 6 games. It's by no means a guarantee Eddie will be a good starter some strikers don't suit it but we will never know unless we give him a chance, i've seen comments that he's just a goalscorer from what i've seen he's got a lot more to his game than that as well as being capable of goals.

We are doing a lot of the right things, first 8 games of the season I could have made a strong case for us deserving to win 7 of them and to be honest I don't think we've been outplayed by a side or deserved to lose any of the first 11 (and very rarely have been throughout Bielsa's time here). I do feel we were playing better last season but still very happy with the performances in general. Defensively we have made big improvements we concede very few chances. I do trust in the process and the way we play, however, I do think doubt creeps into some players minds when things don't go our way and it links back to the end of last season. The trouble is the points we have dropped have more often than not down to ourselves rather than the opposition producing moments of quality against us that we can do little about.

Against Forest we missed a few half chances and Forest grab an equaliser with 15 minutes to go their only attack of the game. On two counts it was poor we defended the goal terribly (although that isn't linked to mentality) and then seemed to totally lose belief after that. We had outplayed them for 75 minutes and had 15 minutes to make the difference in quality count (plus they had to go for it so had a lot of attack minded players on) the spaces were there to attack and we looked as bad as them for the last 15. We played well and controlled for 75 minutes of that game which is as much as you can ask for but we didn't deliver and lost belief in the 15 minutes that really mattered.

Against Swansea similar scenario to Forest but the last 10 minutes we lost belief and started to force passes and lost our patience. Swansea started to string together a few attacks and we looked nervous alomost 'oh no not this again' they get the winner but the defending in the build up to that showed a real nervousness. Harrison ran the ball out of play with a heavy touch for the corner i'm not saying mistakes don't happen but I think it was nerves more than anything.

Against Derby we missed the penalty chance after chance and then just dropped deeper and deeper after the penalty miss, gave some freekicks away around our box through rash challenges and then concede a cheap goal.

Against Charlton, we were well on top concede the goal, Charlton sat back and we didn't have a clue how to break down similar to an extent with Millwall. We didn't stick to our philosophy players were trying to rush things and we just resorted to aimless balls into the box.

In general we've got to manage situations better: in those 3 home games we finished the games badly (not becuase the opposition improved but because we started to panic as we weren't comfortable). Last season our mentality up until the last 3 weeks was incredibly strong we won every game we lead in up until that Wigan game last season which is incredible and we recovered 24 points from losing positions.
Last season we were comfortable 'only' being 1-0 up we stuck to our principles and didn't allow the opposition to build any momentum late on. Since Wigan we've led in 12 games and have only converted 7 of them into wins. We only truly seem comfortable when we get the second goal, there seems to be a nervousness amongst the team when we don't and we have that fear the longer the game stays at 1-0.
We need to find a way to break down the teams that sit back against us too we've been behind in 7 games since Wigan and have lost every game.
I don't want us to change the way we play far from it, I just think we need to bring on players who seem to enjoy the pressure such as Roberts and Nketiah. I still stand by my view that had Roberts and Roofe been fully fit for the play offs we would have won them.
As you say it needs a mixture of everything and luck plays a factor too (and we've had absolutely none since Roofe's handball vs Forest).
I always go back to Pep's first season at City they played as well that season (despite having a poor season by their standards) as they do now, City dominated the vast majority of games but also had those two similar issues to ourselves. Of course they made some excllent additions but the majority of the squad is still the same. During their last two title wins late on in games where they weren't comfortable, Pep has often brought on Stones and Otamdendi for an attacking player with 10-15 minutes for their height and to stop them getting bullied late on as the opposition starts to launch long balls and crosses into the box. He also rotated the team something he never did (or really had to do) at Barcelona and didn't overcomplicate things he tried to play KDB on the RW to accomodate all his attacking talent and Fernandinho at RB plus a few other things. After that first season he just started to trust players in their natural positions. Small small details, there's no need for us to change our style or to even have a plan B. Just adapt things a little bit to suit certain situations late on in games.
Just keeping the belief in our system alone won't get us promoted as we aren't better/considerably better quality wise than the rest of the league.
Whilst Bielsa could maybe rotate a little bit more when we have 3 games in a week and maybe give more minutes to other players there's little more he can do. He's built a side that's creating a lot of chances, improved virtually every player he's ever worked with at Leeds in some cases dramatically and we deserve to win most weeks. It's down to the players to do their own individual jobs and to take responsibility Bielsa can't have all the answers when a players got a split second decision shoot or cross, pass or travel with the ball the players have to take the decisions themselves and have to keep the faith in their own abilities, I do think when things go against us I would like some of the senior players to step up more often in those situations and take responsibility they did for 95% of last season but they don't really do so much now hence our recent poor conversion rate of leads in games into wins and getting back into games we fall behind in.

I hope your doing well mate always enjoy our debates and have missed them over the last year or so