QPR v Leeds Utd - Post Match Discussion

[1964white]

Gruev is a mixed bag for me. When we are playing out from the back, and I have noticed this many, many times his positioning is rather unhelpful. He seems content to place an opposition player between himself ( by standing a couple of yards behind the opposition player) but directly directly in line with generally Amps or Rodon - whoever is in possession, and waves his arm about suggesting where they should play it - which is not in his direction.

It could be instructional but it seems so pointless and it looks like he is hiding. He has often got a bubble of space around him but just maintains that position, the cynic in me suggests he adopts this position so that they cannot play the ball to him. It is very strange positioning and not remotely dynamic or proactive.

Watch a few games back - you will see what I mean - I just do not understand it.

I reckon Gruev needs Kamara alongside him in our final games with Archie playing RB, a position he has occupied for much of the season.

We need to sign a forward-thinking goalscoring centre-midfielder come the summer.

[Cjay]

I reckon Gruev needs Kamara alongside him in our final games with Archie playing RB, a position he has occupied for much of the season.

We need to sign a forward-thinking goalscoring centre-midfielder come the summer.

For what purpose?

Our midfield is how it is because of Daniel Farke (his Mönchengladbach midfield scored 2 league goals between them last season).

This is his wish.

You could sign prime Frank Lampard and Paul Scholes but ultimately they play cm how the manager tells them.

[1964white]

For what purpose?

Our midfield is how it is because of Daniel Farke (his Mönchengladbach midfield scored 2 league goals between them last season).

This is his wish.

You could sign prime Frank Lampard and Paul Scholes but ultimately they play cm how the manager tells them.

Other championship teams have goalscoring centre-mids & centre-backs, so why shouldn't we improve our goal input from those areas?

Just one goal each from the likes of Kamara, Gruev, Rodon & Ampadu, may have seen us automatically promoted by now, the margins are so fine!

[Cjay]

Other championship teams have goalscoring centre-mids & centre-backs, so why shouldn't we improve our goal input from those areas?

Just one goal each from the likes of Kamara, Gruev, Rodon & Ampadu, may have seen us automatically promoted by now, the margins are so fine!

I agree but what I'm saying is the common denominator in multiple teams who get few goals from midfield and struggle from set pieces is the manager.

So the first place you look isn't the players it's the tactics surely?

Archie Gray by his own admission sees himself as a box to box midfielder who sees people like Zidane as players he looks upto (said as much to The Guardian near Christmas).

He's got 2 goals and 4 assists in 16 matches for the u21s.

He's perfectly capable of playing the way you want us to sign someone to do.

But that isn't how DF asks his midfield to play, so it doesn't matter who we sign unless DF changes his midfield tactics.

The midfield plays how they are told.

So unless Daniel Farke changes his instructions then it doesn't matter who we sign as they will be told to play the exact same way.

[Kennyb41]

Like a feckin borin broken record

[Cjay]

Like a feckin borin broken record

Oh bore off

It's a fact!!!!

Midfield plays how it is TOLD

That's logical

[malcolmw]

Oh bore off

It's a fact!!!!

Midfield plays how it is TOLD

That's logical

Logical to you maybe. But you're not being objective.
The issues with Friday night's performance go far beyond simple tactics. You can go on all day about players and positions - that was not the issue. You're just using it as an excuse for Farke bashing - as usual.

QPR was a total systemic failure. Noone - players, manager, staff showed up. The players couldn't even handle the fundamentals - ALL of them.
I am still trying to figure it out for myself.

Does the manager take some blame - yes of course, absolutely. But not one of those players showed up with any fight - for most of the game. At some point it becomes up to the players on the field. All of them have some real soul searching to do. They let themselves and the fans down.

Something has gone wrong since the international break. It is no doubt a bit of a perfect storm of issues, all impacting at the same time.
For me lack of experience keeps coming up. Our team is largely pretty young and dont have the scar tissue of fighting when the pressure is stifling. Our (replacement) captain, Rodon, Rutter, Summerville, Gnonto, Gray are mostly in unknown territory.

Right now, they have to figure out how to get their MOJO back - quickly - so they can tackle the playoffs.
You can argue formation, tactics, subs, blah, blah. But none of it is relevant unless they get their confidence back.
They know how to win, how to play as a team, how to defend, how to score. We've seen it for most of the season. They need to find it for 4 more games.

[Sean_Nile]

But that isn't how DF asks his midfield to play, so it doesn't matter who we sign unless DF changes his midfield tactics.

The midfield plays how they are told.

From observing Kamara play for Finland goals have been few and far between, and I don't think he was very prolific at Rangers... he has always had the role of a midfield enforcer... a Batty like player.

To suggest that Farke instructs him to play in a way that he does not score goals is naive and neglects the fact that this is who he is.

But it is your style to weave a tapestry of lies and half truths to suit your own narrative, where the theory of constraints point to Farke being the weekest link and therefore needs to be removed.

i see you.

[GreennWhite]

Logical to you maybe. But you're not being objective.
The issues with Friday night's performance go far beyond simple tactics. You can go on all day about players and positions - that was not the issue. You're just using it as an excuse for Farke bashing - as usual.

QPR was a total systemic failure. Noone - players, manager, staff showed up. The players couldn't even handle the fundamentals - ALL of them.
I am still trying to figure it out for myself.

Does the manager take some blame - yes of course, absolutely. But not one of those players showed up with any fight - for most of the game. At some point it becomes up to the players on the field. All of them have some real soul searching to do. They let themselves and the fans down.

Something has gone wrong since the international break. It is no doubt a bit of a perfect storm of issues, all impacting at the same time.
For me lack of experience keeps coming up. Our team is largely pretty young and dont have the scar tissue of fighting when the pressure is stifling. Our (replacement) captain, Rodon, Rutter, Summerville, Gnonto, Gray are mostly in unknown territory.

Right now, they have to figure out how to get their MOJO back - quickly - so they can tackle the playoffs.
You can argue formation, tactics, subs, blah, blah. But none of it is relevant unless they get their confidence back.
They know how to win, how to play as a team, how to defend, how to score. We've seen it for most of the season. They need to find it for 4 more games.

Well said Malcolm, you know who just digs up the dirt at every oportunity to have a go at the manager. If it wasnt Frake it would be another manager who he would find fault with.
One point you made which i feel is very important is the age of our squad and the lack of experience in it. Farke may well have plenty of experience with this sort of pressure having been there and done it with Norwich, but the players, in this case, lack of experience is also are very important. I cant think of too many of them that have been in this situation before, and while it certainly isnt the whole reason for some of our poor performaces recently it hasnt helped at all.

[Cjay]

Logical to you maybe. But you're not being objective.
The issues with Friday night's performance go far beyond simple tactics. You can go on all day about players and positions - that was not the issue. You're just using it as an excuse for Farke bashing - as usual.

QPR was a total systemic failure. Noone - players, manager, staff showed up. The players couldn't even handle the fundamentals - ALL of them.
I am still trying to figure it out for myself.

Does the manager take some blame - yes of course, absolutely. But not one of those players showed up with any fight - for most of the game. At some point it becomes up to the players on the field. All of them have some real soul searching to do. They let themselves and the fans down.

Something has gone wrong since the international break. It is no doubt a bit of a perfect storm of issues, all impacting at the same time.
For me lack of experience keeps coming up. Our team is largely pretty young and dont have the scar tissue of fighting when the pressure is stifling. Our (replacement) captain, Rodon, Rutter, Summerville, Gnonto, Gray are mostly in unknown territory.

Right now, they have to figure out how to get their MOJO back - quickly - so they can tackle the playoffs.
You can argue formation, tactics, subs, blah, blah. But none of it is relevant unless they get their confidence back.
They know how to win, how to play as a team, how to defend, how to score. We've seen it for most of the season. They need to find it for 4 more games.

The discussion was a more general one with Leon if you look.

It wasn't about QPR, just happened to be in the QPR thread.

Agree in general with what you said however, QPR wasn't one person's fault rather a collective failure.

[Cjay]

From observing Kamara play for Finland goals have been few and far between, and I don't think he was very prolific at Rangers... he has always had the role of a midfield enforcer... a Batty like player.

To suggest that Farke instructs him to play in a way that he does not score goals is naive and neglects the fact that this is who he is.

But it is your style to weave a tapestry of lies and half truths to suit your own narrative, where the theory of constraints point to Farke being the weekest link and therefore needs to be removed.

i see you.

Kamara isn't prolific very true.

But Gray is a box to box midfielder but hasn't played that way when in midfield.

Others have said (not me) how Gray plays the cm role exactly the same as Kamara, if two players play the same role the same way that is a tactical instruction not a coincidence.

You can accuse me of whatever you like I don't really care.

But what I'm saying is perfectly logical.

[DDB220]

Logical to you maybe. But you're not being objective.
The issues with Friday night's performance go far beyond simple tactics. You can go on all day about players and positions - that was not the issue. You're just using it as an excuse for Farke bashing - as usual.

QPR was a total systemic failure. Noone - players, manager, staff showed up. The players couldn't even handle the fundamentals - ALL of them.
I am still trying to figure it out for myself.

Does the manager take some blame - yes of course, absolutely. But not one of those players showed up with any fight - for most of the game. At some point it becomes up to the players on the field. All of them have some real soul searching to do. They let themselves and the fans down.

Something has gone wrong since the international break. It is no doubt a bit of a perfect storm of issues, all impacting at the same time.
For me lack of experience keeps coming up. Our team is largely pretty young and dont have the scar tissue of fighting when the pressure is stifling. Our (replacement) captain, Rodon, Rutter, Summerville, Gnonto, Gray are mostly in unknown territory.

Right now, they have to figure out how to get their MOJO back - quickly - so they can tackle the playoffs.
You can argue formation, tactics, subs, blah, blah. But none of it is relevant unless they get their confidence back.
They know how to win, how to play as a team, how to defend, how to score. We've seen it for most of the season. They need to find it for 4 more games.

I agree with something going wrong since the international break and for me it was the injury to Gnonto and Geo’s drop in fitness and form, which can be expected after surgery. This has been compounded in my opinion by the rest of the players not stepping up and taking more responsibility offensively. Summerville has done his best but he is often crowded out by a shrewd defensive plan.

There is merit IMO in what CJAY alludes to with regards our patterns of play. We are not schooled in Transition like a Bielsa team or Ipswich, for me the evidence is clear to see. Our creativity is reliant on a few individuals, which I do not have a problem with. No point having an automatic rifle and just using single shot.
Every team relies on key players, our problem is our creativity in their absence is very thin on the ground. Personally, I have witnessed what I interpret as a steady erosion of confidence within the team and this has led to indecision within our build up play and offensive transition. We all know that Kamara and Gruev are not going to win a game. We get nothing from the set piece and if our Creative players are kept quiet we have a big problem.
Now that we have the players back to the right fitness levels, that previous erosion has seemingly blunted the chemistry. Everything in the last game was rushed, imprecise and confusing.
It must be a real head scratcher for DF because he knows the system works with the players at his disposal, but there is something missing at the critical point - and for me it is confidence.

A quick edit: Firpo has also stepped up and Amps but he can only do so much at CB. The middle of the park is our Achilles heal of late because it has been heavily reliant on Geo and he is still not at the same level and is perhaps trying too hard and not playing with the same aplomb he was before the break. This is why an early goal or immediate response if we go behind is paramount.

[Irish Ian]

I agree but what I'm saying is the common denominator in multiple teams who get few goals from midfield and struggle from set pieces is the manager.

So the first place you look isn't the players it's the tactics surely?

Archie Gray by his own admission sees himself as a box to box midfielder who sees people like Zidane as players he looks upto (said as much to The Guardian near Christmas).

He's got 2 goals and 4 assists in 16 matches for the u21s.

He's perfectly capable of playing the way you want us to sign someone to do.

But that isn't how DF asks his midfield to play, so it doesn't matter who we sign unless DF changes his midfield tactics.

The midfield plays how they are told.

So unless Daniel Farke changes his instructions then it doesn't matter who we sign as they will be told to play the exact same way.

I had a look at the numbers on whoscored.com and Kamara and Gruevs are basically the same from their previous clubs as it is at Leeds.
That is evidence that it isnt heavily related to the way the manager has them playing but is more related to their core attribtes of passing, tackling, marking, focus.


And we do have a front line of 4 which is one of the most attack minded in the league

[Cjay]

I had a look at the numbers on whoscored.com and Kamara and Gruevs are basically the same from their previous clubs as it is at Leeds.
That is evidence that it isnt heavily related to the way the manager has them playing but is more related to their core attribtes of passing, tackling, marking, focus.


And we do have a front line of 4 which is one of the most attack minded in the league

Gruev and Kamara aren't really goalscorers very true.

Gray can be more attacking as anyone whose watched the u21s can attest?

All I'm saying (and I'm just repeating myself and getting accused of bashing Farke blah)

Is our midfield doesn't attack, hasn't all season, doesn't take shots, doesn't create chances, doesn't make late runs into the box.

Partly maybe because Kamara and especially Gruev aren't that type of player? Absolutely I'm sure it's a factor.

But largely because DF doesn't ask the midfield to do that.

Gray plays the midfield role the exact same way as Kamara, some will go mad if I say this but I will anyway.

The heatmaps show it, all season no matter whose in midfield they take up the same positions.

Borussia Mönchengladbach played exactly the same way, Farke doesn't want his midfield getting forward and scoring goals he wants them to protect.

So bemoaning our lack of goals and creativity from midfield has to start with that they are being told to do which is down to DF.

Not a criticism, an attack, a how crap is he . . .just trying to make what to me seems a perfectly logical deduction?

If DF wanted a Klich type midfielder we'd have seen it by now surely? We'd have signed one or he'd have asked Gray and Kamara to do it best they can?

He hasn't because it isn't what he wants

[DDB220]

Gruev and Kamara aren't really goalscorers very true.

Gray can be more attacking as anyone whose watched the u21s can attest?

All I'm saying (and I'm just repeating myself and getting accused of bashing Farke blah)

Is our midfield doesn't attack, hasn't all season, doesn't take shots, doesn't create chances, doesn't make late runs into the box.

Partly maybe because Kamara and especially Gruev aren't that type of player? Absolutely I'm sure it's a factor.

But largely because DF doesn't ask the midfield to do that.

Gray plays the midfield role the exact same way as Kamara, some will go mad if I say this but I will anyway.

The heatmaps show it, all season no matter whose in midfield they take up the same positions.

Borussia Mönchengladbach played exactly the same way, Farke doesn't want his midfield getting forward and scoring goals he wants them to protect.

So bemoaning our lack of goals and creativity from midfield has to start with that they are being told to do which is down to DF.

Not a criticism, an attack, a how crap is he . . .just trying to make what to me seems a perfectly logical deduction?

If DF wanted a Klich type midfielder we'd have seen it by now surely? We'd have signed one or he'd have asked Gray and Kamara to do it best they can?

He hasn't because it isn't what he wants

CJAY the team has a shape - most managers play this way unless you use the chaos theory where players pop up anywhere. That system loses the ability to be compact out of possession and you need top quality players all over the pitch. I do not have issues with Farke’s set-up.
Our shape has for the most part been fine IMO. Incidentally, Kamara does get forward he just appears to have a crisis of confidence when he gets near the oppositions 18 yard box. He then tends to square the ball and we lose impetus.
Gray will have a pop - but the difference at this level to the u21’s is that you get closed down twice as quick. Expecting an 18 year old to be a game changer is rather unrealistic. Whilst his ceiling is high this is his first season playing with the big boys. Players like Messi, Rooney and even the kid (Mainoo?) at Manure are the exception to take a game by the scruff of the neck.

We just have nothing in the middle if Geo is off his game and rely on the flanks, which when it works is fine, but if it is neutralised we struggle. But this compact centre is not doing a great job defensively of late, which compounds the problem. We go a goal down now and it becomes an uphill battle.

[Irish Ian]

Gruev and Kamara aren't really goalscorers very true.

Gray can be more attacking as anyone whose watched the u21s can attest?

All I'm saying (and I'm just repeating myself and getting accused of bashing Farke blah)

Is our midfield doesn't attack, hasn't all season, doesn't take shots, doesn't create chances, doesn't make late runs into the box.

Partly maybe because Kamara and especially Gruev aren't that type of player? Absolutely I'm sure it's a factor.

But largely because DF doesn't ask the midfield to do that.

Gray plays the midfield role the exact same way as Kamara, some will go mad if I say this but I will anyway.

The heatmaps show it, all season no matter whose in midfield they take up the same positions.

Borussia Mönchengladbach played exactly the same way, Farke doesn't want his midfield getting forward and scoring goals he wants them to protect.

So bemoaning our lack of goals and creativity from midfield has to start with that they are being told to do which is down to DF.

Not a criticism, an attack, a how crap is he . . .just trying to make what to me seems a perfectly logical deduction?

If DF wanted a Klich type midfielder we'd have seen it by now surely? We'd have signed one or he'd have asked Gray and Kamara to do it best they can?

He hasn't because it isn't what he wants

I get what you are saying, I suppose he feels with 4 attacking players on the pitch we have enough threat?
And of course the Ampadu issue is imo a contributing factor as him playing farther back is limiting his passing range and playing in other midfielders.

If I recall he suggested that DF 90 goals would help us achieve promotion and are not far of that.

Gray is not being used to his strengths and I doubt he will in our set up, saying that he missed an absolute sitter away to Coventy which had it went in etc we would perhaps be in a better position.

But it isnt going to change now

[Sean_Nile]

But what I'm saying is perfectly logical.

Is that Vulcan talk

Insufficient facts always invite danger. we don't really know what ails the team, insufficient data

but the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one, especially the shareholders

Evil does seem to maintain power by suppressing the truth, that is why Farke will remain as manager

When you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth, Bamford remains which is improbable because Joseph is impossible.

Superior ability breeds superior ambition, this is why we have Rodon and Ampadu

Pain is a thing of the mind. The mind can be controlled, another year in the championship then. Live long and prosper.

[The Subhuman]

Oh bore off

It's a fact!!!!

Midfield plays how it is TOLD

That's logical

I agree with you, the way we play is dictated by the way we're set up which is down to Farke pure and simple, it goes wrong, as it has recently, then the blame falls on Farke. When he gets it right he gets the plaudits and he has got it right at time. I'm unclear if he's one of those managers that worries what the opposition could/may/will do and makes adjustments that don't work

Bielsa's way was let them worry about us... just play our game.

[Kennyb41]

From observing Kamara play for Finland goals have been few and far between, and I don't think he was very prolific at Rangers... he has always had the role of a midfield enforcer... a Batty like player.

To suggest that Farke instructs him to play in a way that he does not score goals is naive and neglects the fact that this is who he is.

But it is your style to weave a tapestry of lies and half truths to suit your own narrative, where the theory of constraints point to Farke being the weekest link and therefore needs to be removed.

i see you.

Now ain't that just the feckin truth.

Nail, head, hammer, hit.

[Cjay]

CJAY the team has a shape - most managers play this way unless you use the chaos theory where players pop up anywhere. That system loses the ability to be compact out of possession and you need top quality players all over the pitch. I do not have issues with Farke’s set-up.
Our shape has for the most part been fine IMO. Incidentally, Kamara does get forward he just appears to have a crisis of confidence when he gets near the oppositions 18 yard box. He then tends to square the ball and we lose impetus.
Gray will have a pop - but the difference at this level to the u21’s is that you get closed down twice as quick. Expecting an 18 year old to be a game changer is rather unrealistic. Whilst his ceiling is high this is his first season playing with the big boys. Players like Messi, Rooney and even the kid (Mainoo?) at Manure are the exception to take a game by the scruff of the neck.

We just have nothing in the middle if Geo is off his game and rely on the flanks, which when it works is fine, but if it is neutralised we struggle. But this compact centre is not doing a great job defensively of late, which compounds the problem. We go a goal down now and it becomes an uphill battle.

I think its extremely rare for sides to play with 2 defensive midfielders these days which is effectively how we play.

Kamara get forwards occasionally but it's rare, it makes the link play between midfield and attack really difficult hence why you often see Rutter or Jimmy coming so deep to receive the ball.

It's not the same as Norwich, they had a threat and goals from midfield in both his Championship seasons from people like Vrancic and Leitner and McClean and others.

It has to he a conscious decision on DF's part?

They had a link player, a holder , Oliver Skipp in that 2nd season doing the KP role but they had people like Dowell playing more box to box.

Maybe it's a consequence of his Premier League struggles? An adaption to try and make his teams harder to beat? Safer passing, less adventurous etc.

I don't know.

But it's different from his Norwich sides.