The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Monday 15th April) Leeds are falling apart - again

[Phild]

The protection of a back 4 has nothing to do with their route 1 goal
If your chasing a game against so called lesser opponents why do you to protect a back 4?

[Sean_Nile]

1 win in 11 when we played them

Obviously you want to follow your own narrative and disregard the facts.
In the last four games 2 wins 1 draw and 1 loss which puts them in the top 6 of the form table as I stated. Just to refresh your memory.

[Cjay]

Obviously you want to follow your own narrative and disregard the facts.
In the last four games 2 wins 1 draw and 1 loss which puts them in the top 6 of the form table as I stated. Just to refresh your memory.
Screenshot_20240415-215032_DuckDuckGo.jpg

And as I said, 1 win in 11 when we played them.

Your table includes the game vs us they are bottom 3 even now over the last 20 games as well.

Before that they were awful same as Sunderland as I said

[weasel]

Your not really making an argument for Farke though are you, it's more of an apologetic excuse with no real feeling.. Yes subs had to be made, but you don't sub for sub sake with no consideration for what comes next... If it were a chess game Farke swapped his queen and rooks for three pawns

And yes we kept a back four but removed the protection for the back 4 while altering the back 4 personnel...

It was a case of going for the win and being prepared to risk losing one point in order to try to win two points. If it works and we scored the first goal then we very likely win the game.Just football being football and like Ihave said for many matches, including against Leicester, if we took a reasonable percentage of our chances then we win but if we don't then we are vulnerable of losing to any team. If you fail to score then you aren't going to win.

[weasel]

Id say he does, this is a freak season with the top 4 being so dominant for so long and as you say it is hard to see it replicated next time.

Under Farke we have scored the goals and won us the points that would ordinarily take us up. He was handed a 4 year contract and imo the owners would be crazy to replace him.

I think Watford have the potential to have a strong season, out of all the teams I have watched they seem to be the only ones whose good players are not owned by someone else.

If we don't go up I'd want Farke in charge. He'd probably have more chance of building the side he wants rather than having to make the best out of what he had. I know some will say we had this great squad etc but there are glaring weaknesses. I would say we have done better overall than we had a right to. I'd expect a few players would leave but hopefully we'd bring in a few players using a fair chunk of the money we'd bring in. A good example would be Rutter and we would hopefully get good money for him and we could replace him with someone with nowhere near as much potential but someone steady who would hit double figures for goals and assists from the no.10 position. So they might score a few more than Rutter, create a fair few less but also lose the ball less. So it might be a short term better player who is more suited to what we need, a horses for courses type.

But hopefully a few days for the team to calm down, remember how good they have been and then go all out to get 3 wins from 3.

[Jaydog]

And as I said, 1 win in 11 when we played them.

Your table includes the game vs us.

Before that they were awful same as Sunderland as I said

Screenshot_20240415_200213_Samsung Internet.jpg

Thing is logic flies out the room this time of year.
Liverpool battered Palace & lost 1-0. First game they’d won since the very first game of Glasners tenure.
Villa bossed Arsenal 2-0.
Bristol City beat Blackburn 5-0. Zero logic.
I’m not inclined to try and find it anymore.
Hopefully Boro sees us back on track.

[Cjay]

If we don't go up I'd want Farke in charge. He'd probably have more chance of building the side he wants rather than having to make the best out of what he had. I know some will say we had this great squad etc but there are glaring weaknesses. I would say we have done better overall than we had a right to. I'd expect a few players would leave but hopefully we'd bring in a few players using a fair chunk of the money we'd bring in. A good example would be Rutter and we would hopefully get good money for him and we could replace him with someone with nowhere near as much potential but someone steady who would hit double figures for goals and assists from the no.10 position. So they might score a few more than Rutter, create a fair few less but also lose the ball less. So it might be a short term better player who is more suited to what we need, a horses for courses type.

But hopefully a few days for the team to calm down, remember how good they have been and then go all out to get 3 wins from 3.

You can't be serious?

This is as good a squad as he will get at this level ffs.

Why are people so desperate to make excuses for him?

He's literally got 3 members of the Championship team of the year, the player and young player of the year.

Italian international wingers, Welsh international wingers, Championship team of the year right back for last season, top open play scorer in the Championship for the last 2 years.

He's not a very good tactical coach, it's been obvious his entire career.

Good man manager, tactically dreadful.

It's literally playing out in front of us with his weird subs and yet it's not his fault?

Kompany got promotion with 80 year old Ashley Barnes and 70 year old Jay Rodriguez backed up by 75 year old Jack Cork.

Mckenna is using some lower league journey men.

But poor Farke and his obscenely expensive team of internationals and proven Championship players . . .

Baffles me people defending underperforming managers, Marsch, Hecky, Allardyce, now Farke.

People said the same about all them as well, own players.

All 3 of those have outperformed Farke in the Prem and useless Marsch did it in 2 sodding leagues.

He isn't very good!!!!

End of rant

Realise I lost composure ere

[weasel]

Thing is logic flies out the room this time of year.
Liverpool battered Palace & lost 1-0. First game they’d won since the very first game of Glasners tenure.
Villa bossed Arsenal 2-0.
Bristol City beat Blackburn 5-0. Zero logic.
I’m not inclined to try and find it anymore.
Hopefully Boro sees us back on track.

Indeed it does, you talking sense for a change being the ultimate example.

THis time of the eyar rlegation threatened teams that have been shite all year suddenly start winning matches, teams that have looked superb all year start losing matches, just the way football works. If we scored early v Blackburn their heads might have gone down and we win 5-0, but equally like we saw a few years ago when we lost to Wigan anything can happen, 1-0 up playing against 10 men of a relegation threatened team and we lost.

Just gotta stay calm and keep doing the things that have made us successful.

[Jaydog]

Indeed it does, you talking sense for a change being the ultimate example.

THis time of the eyar rlegation threatened teams that have been shite all year suddenly start winning matches, teams that have looked superb all year start losing matches, just the way football works. If we scored early v Blackburn their heads might have gone down and we win 5-0, but equally like we saw a few years ago when we lost to Wigan anything can happen, 1-0 up playing against 10 men of a relegation threatened team and we lost.

Just gotta stay calm and keep doing the things that have made us successful.

Bloody cheek. I spent all day thinking of that.

It’s a battle of the mind isn’t it. Even the teams who have nothing to play for think “f**k Leeds we’ll piss them right off”. In a way they have the upper hand regardless of table position

[Broad Ford]

The frustrating part is 2 of our attackers were taking up positions in the space near the right.

During a Leeds attack Gnonto was in acres of space down the right, yet I was left in disbelief why the pass wasn't played when a good shot on goal would have been the result. Why then was the pass not played? Was it the rigidity of DF's system, or because the other player did not see him?

Does it make financial sense to gain promotion at the first attempt, or is it a case of selling the crown jewels, rebuilding on the cheap and trying again next year? After all, DF has another 3 years to guide Leeds into the PL. If this slump is by design then that could explain the bizarre substitution of Gnonto. Of course a tactical change is more likely the reason that Gnonto was replaced.

I can't help but think that the club are now focussed on the revenue of the playoff semis and a possible Wembley final, then cashing in players to finish off the slump.

[weasel]

You can't be serious?

This is as good a squad as he will get at this level ffs.

Why are people so desperate to make excuses for him?

He's literally got 3 members of the Championship team of the year, the player and young player of the year.

Italian international wingers, Welsh international wingers, Championship team of the year right back for last season, top open play scorer in the Championship for the last 2 years.

He's not a very good tactical coach, it's been obvious his entire career.

Good man manager, tactically dreadful.

It's literally playing out in front of us with his weird subs and yet it's not his fault?

Like I said though it gives him chance to get the team that he wants. At Norwich his first year was poor but he started to get the team playing how he wanted. I made the example with Rutter as being a good player but end product lacking and gives the ball away a lot. Yes some great moments but give me a Pablo Hernandez over him anyday if I was building a side to do the job rather than a side of potential. Same could be said for others. Summerville has had a great season but for me should have done a lot better. How many times does he play a poor pass into the area? How many crosses has he put in for Bamford or Piroe? So again someone not as good could do a better job. Up front and maybe having different players makes Piroe fit better, they get the ball to him in better positions, they play better passes into him etc and he gets 30 goals.

I could probably make arguments jsut about all over the pitch as to how weakening the squad could actually strengthen it. Take Rodon out and put Cresswell in and maybe we are 10 goals worse off defensively but if Cresswell bangs in half a dozen goals for us then suddenly overall it isn't the huge loss it first appears. It is a bit like moneyball where Oakland built a team made up of unglamorous players that didn't catch they eye but the 'stats' that weren't as obvious as say someone hitting home runs made the difference - i.e player A hits 40 home runs but often doesn't get on base and makes a fair few errors when fielding may not be as good as player B who hits only 5 home runs but gets on base a lot more often and makes a lot less errors when fielding.

[The Subhuman]

It was a case of going for the win and being prepared to risk losing one point in order to try to win two points. If it works and we scored the first goal then we very likely win the game.Just football being football and like Ihave said for many matches, including against Leicester, if we took a reasonable percentage of our chances then we win but if we don't then we are vulnerable of losing to any team. If you fail to score then you aren't going to win.

Which I'm fine with if it's done right, this chaos football, as I've posted before, is up there with Marsch's playground football. Might work every now and again but it's giving us a lesser chance to succeed... I'll always maintain you put yourself in the best position to win and taking off your game changers and form players, even just the players playing well on the day then you're not doing that.

If we win the next three, win the division and Farke goes on to make Leeds a perennial top 10 team, still doesn't mean he didn't f**k up v Blackburn and sometimes you have to take that on the chin. If he were a boxer he dropped his guard and got hit by a sucker punch. If you want to put it in Bazball terms, he opened the batting with Jimmy Anderson and had Root bat last, opened the bowling with Bairstow....

There was no logical reason to his substitutions, it's almost impossible to defend and Farke couldn't..

[The Subhuman]

If we don't go up I'd want Farke in charge. He'd probably have more chance of building the side he wants rather than having to make the best out of what he had. I know some will say we had this great squad etc but there are glaring weaknesses. I would say we have done better overall than we had a right to. I'd expect a few players would leave but hopefully we'd bring in a few players using a fair chunk of the money we'd bring in. A good example would be Rutter and we would hopefully get good money for him and we could replace him with someone with nowhere near as much potential but someone steady who would hit double figures for goals and assists from the no.10 position. So they might score a few more than Rutter, create a fair few less but also lose the ball less. So it might be a short term better player who is more suited to what we need, a horses for courses type.

But hopefully a few days for the team to calm down, remember how good they have been and then go all out to get 3 wins from 3.

There's no glaring weaknesses in this squad... but I do know you tend to blame players before managers whereas I'm the opposite. . Players are only as good as their manager...

[Jaydog]

Good god that Weasel is a politician, I’m sure of it.
He could argue the sky is green & the grass is blue.
In fact I’m already starting to doubt whether that might be true. And he hasn’t even put his case forward yet

[weasel]

I am happy to accept that taking Gruev and Gnonto off was a fitness or injury prevention thing. Both have just come back form injury and they have those things monitoring the players and showing when they are going into danger zones. I would think taking Gnonto off falls into that category as I am sure I read something along the lines of the last 15 minutes is the most dangerous time for 'explosive' players to get injuries. Like you say he looked threatening but is it worth risking him getting a muscle injury? Gruev if it wasn't for that reason then I have no problem if it was a tactical switch to increase our attacking options. I have said in the past, when Farke made similar switches, that it made little sense as it was like having loads of players on to score but no one to create but it is a gamble that could easily pay off simply by having an extra body in the box when the ball falls loose.

[Jaydog]

There's no glaring weaknesses in this squad... but I do know you tend to blame players before managers whereas I'm the opposite. . Players are only as good as their manager...

Can a manager be a better manager than he is?
It seems players can exceed their ceiling under great coaching. Bielsa’s boys for example. But can a manager. Maybe this is as good as he is so in that sense we are too harsh on him & expect too much.

[Cjay]

Like I said though it gives him chance to get the team that he wants. At Norwich his first year was poor but he started to get the team playing how he wanted. I made the example with Rutter as being a good player but end product lacking and gives the ball away a lot. Yes some great moments but give me a Pablo Hernandez over him anyday if I was building a side to do the job rather than a side of potential. Same could be said for others. Summerville has had a great season but for me should have done a lot better. How many times does he play a poor pass into the area? How many crosses has he put in for Bamford or Piroe? So again someone not as good could do a better job. Up front and maybe having different players makes Piroe fit better, they get the ball to him in better positions, they play better passes into him etc and he gets 30 goals.

I could probably make arguments jsut about all over the pitch as to how weakening the squad could actually strengthen it. Take Rodon out and put Cresswell in and maybe we are 10 goals worse off defensively but if Cresswell bangs in half a dozen goals for us then suddenly overall it isn't the huge loss it first appears. It is a bit like moneyball where Oakland built a team made up of unglamorous players that didn't catch they eye but the 'stats' that weren't as obvious as say someone hitting home runs made the difference - i.e player A hits 40 home runs but often doesn't get on base and makes a fair few errors when fielding may not be as good as player B who hits only 5 home runs but gets on base a lot more often and makes a lot less errors when fielding.

Farke has completely sidelined Cresswell, what makes you think he'd suddenly change his mind next season?

You say Summerville could put in more crosses? To who?

We have no midfield runners and our right back is told not to push on much whilst Gnonto on the right is forced to come narrow to get involved same as Buendia.

But all of it is a moot point, Summerville doesn't cross the ball for the same reason we never go long to spread the play or over the top to get in behind, Farke doesn't want to.

We know this because both his Norwich sides in this league ranked last for long passes and bottom 5 or 6 for crosses.

Same as creating chances from those things.

The players follow his instructions and the evidence is in how similar we rank compared to his Norwich side.

Same as they focus down 1 side and ignore the other, it's his instructions.

All the things you suggest about better positions and what not would require Farke to change HIS tactics.

This is his style.

Keep the ball, don't go long and don't cross much.

His Norwich side were exactly the same.

And as said before they needed overperforming on a vast scale from Pukki, Buendia and Krul to make it work.

I think DF has done a good job as a man manager, as a tactical coach I think he is a weakness and I'd go as far to say a hindering factor for us this season.

I'm still on the fortunate perfect storm of good recruitment from Webber and seasons of your life form from Pukki and Co made him look better than he is.

[weasel]

There's no glaring weaknesses in this squad... but I do know you tend to blame players before managers whereas I'm the opposite. . Players are only as good as their manager...

I will blame the manager where I feel the manager is the weakest link. I did that with Heckingbottom and Marsch and likewise I gave praise to Bielsa and Farke. I agree a bad manager makes players a lot worse and a good manager gets more out of bad players.

I just don't feel there is anything glaringly obvious to blame Farke for in terms of the substitutions and he actually started the same team that I would have done.

I think the squad could be more suited to getting out of the division than it is with lesser players - a bit like how Bielsa moulded lessers players into a good team. A bit like the Pontus debate, Cooper was a worse defender in terms of many obvious defensvie metrics but was a better fit to a system.

[Cjay]

During a Leeds attack Gnonto was in acres of space down the right, yet I was left in disbelief why the pass wasn't played when a good shot on goal would have been the result. Why then was the pass not played? Was it the rigidity of DF's system, or because the other player did not see him?

Does it make financial sense to gain promotion at the first attempt, or is it a case of selling the crown jewels, rebuilding on the cheap and trying again next year? After all, DF has another 3 years to guide Leeds into the PL. If this slump is by design then that could explain the bizarre substitution of Gnonto. Of course a tactical change is more likely the reason that Gnonto was replaced.

I can't help but think that the club are now focussed on the revenue of the playoff semis and a possible Wembley final, then cashing in players to finish off the slump.

We are told to focus down the left.

It's not an accident that no side in the league plays down one side more than we do our left percentage wise and less than we do down our right.

It's his instructions.

Have been plenty of occasions where Piroe or James or Gnonto are in acres of space near the right of the box or touchline this season and the pass never comes, or when it does its 3 or 4 passes and so slow the space is closed off anyway.

The fans in the ground noticed it so much the other week they ironically cheered when it did go to the right.

I can't imagine the owners want another year in the Championship.

They need a Premier League club to have any hope of making a profit and investors won't wait forever.

They appointed Farke because it is meant to be his speciality.

[The Subhuman]

Can a manager be a better manager than he is?
It seems players can exceed their ceiling under great coaching. Bielsa’s boys for example. But can a manager. Maybe this is as good as he is so in that sense we are too harsh on him & expect too much.

They can learn, and one of the best things they can do is be adaptable. But in a lot of sports, managers, coaches, head coaches, have their way and will go down with that particular ship till it sinks to the bottom.... average managers take what they have and force them into their system, great managers build a system for what they have....

I think Corberan (my choice last summer over Farke and Vierra but was ruled out early) does this.. Football fans moan he plays a safe/bland style for WBA but that's what he has to work with, ditto Hudds I think it was. WBA are a mid table squad that he has comfortable in 5th. My championship manager of the year tbh