Leeds Utd v Birmingham City Match Thread

[DDB220]

Rutter regularly drops deep in matches when he is playing the 9 role because otherwise he would barely touch the ball. I am sure there are phases of play when this is encouraged by Farke. However when we start from the back he is the furthest forward initially as he has the pace, strength and ball carrying ability to make use of a ball over the top as we have previously witnessed. As we pass it around the back particularly against a low block he drops deeper to help populate the middle with more options and hopefully drag a defender or two which means a ball into James or Summerville means it is less likely they will be doubled up upon. Some defences which we have struggled against do not fall into this trap and maintain defensive discipline and shape.

This does not happen by accident. I am sure DF is fully aware that Rutter is not a 9 and neither is Piroe. However with Bamford on the pitch it added an extra dynamic. Rutter generally started deeper and as mentioned he was able to find pockets of space easier, taking the ball on an half turn and in those situations he can dictate the play better and use his creative influence to better effect.

[Kennyb41]

Great points AJS. Many on here have been deeply concerned about the lack of squad rotation coupled with the lack of tactical adjustments prior to and during matches. While Brum were shite, it was great getting the tactical change so many have been clamoring for (Rutter in the 10) while also getting the squad rotation many have been clamoring for.

Can’t help but wonder if losing to Stoke made Farke overly gun-shy and is why he stuck to the same lineup and tactics for too long. Again, hopefully the result restores his faith in some of his reserves going forward and is something Farke can build on for our push in the second half of the season.

Bring on the transfer window!!

He stuck by his players to try and correct things that weren't going drastically wrong, has anybody at all hammered us (bar Soton 45mins) ?
He is quite loyal to his players whilst also trying to work with them, and he has told us about working hard on the training ground.
I should imagine PB will now hold his spot, and he has found another string to his bow, he can also rotate against some teams resorting back to 4-2-4 if and when.

[andrewjohnsmith]

Some good points Andrew - This is by far PB's best and only role for me (Bert did it) and he's very good at it.

Now i've always thought Firpo is ok going forward, but scares the life out of me defending, v v early days but there was a bit of a difference in him today (very slight mind) now could that be DF working with him ? We don't get the answers to these things, but i'd say it is and part of the 'bigger picture' he's just told us he's been working with Rutter and has been waiting on a fit PB, so for people to be jumping in 'do this and do that' without knowing what's going on behind the scenes, and then jumping all over him for some below par games stinks, they have absolutely no idea what's going on each day at training, or individual one on ones, it is DF that has brought thru Pascal, Gray, Summerville, Meslier, James and Rutter when no fcker else was doing, and he deserves credit for making a team. A team which is far from finished.

I think Firpo is fine defending against championship wingers. We saw 2 years of him defending the likes of Mo Salah. That was scary. This is different. Injuries again - we haven't really seen him get a run of games in the championship. But I think he's fine against this lot. And, as you say, he's better going forward. Farke likes that in his full backs. He wants his full backs to get forward and for Ampadu to drop back and cover.

In short. I think Firpo is fine for this season. If only we could always have one of Firpo or Byram fully fit at all times.

[weasel]

Rooney didn't have the tactical knowledge to mark Rutter imo who naturally wants to drift and pick up pockets of space.

Tbf to Rooney in that more free role Rutter is very hard to mark 1v1 which is the only way of doing it.

And if he man marks him it leaves more room for Summerville or James to help Bamford.

I don't think either Piroe or Bamford are natural 9s in the sense of a Drogba or a Haaland.

Bamford came here more as a second striker, in the season he won player of the year at Boro he played a lot from the left with some big Spanish striker leading the line for Boro.

Was the same season before we signed him with Assombalonga leading the line mostly.

It was Bielsa who started using him as a 9 type and it worked because whilst not prolific he worked hard and was a decent link man.

I think Piroe could do the same, he's technically very good, he isn't a small bloke, ok he may not run and run and run but Rutter, Summerville and James can do that (similar to how people had to for Rodrigo).

Today though imo Farke got it right with Rutter and Bamford and hopefully he keeps that whether it's Bamford or Piroe.

Interestingly I would compare Rooney to Rutter as players. Both could be put up as the lone number 9 striker and both could play 10 and both were/are somewhere in between the 2 roles. Rooney in his early days would run all over the pitch, he wanted the ball, he wanted to make something happen, he didn't want to be stuck just up top waiting for the ball to come to him but by playing him there it allowed him to have more freedom so he could roam around the pitch and a centreback couldn't really follow him.

I think Farke is saying that he trusts Rutter a bit more now and wants to give him the extra responsibility. He trusts Rutter to make better decisions than he had been making and lose the ball less in the wrong areas. Rutter is evolving as a player, possibly in the same way that Bielsa would play players out of position at times to increase their understanding of what happens around them. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't mean that Rutter drops deeper more often in the future whether he is seen as starting at 9 or 10 with either Bamford seen as the cliched no.9 or that Prioe, whether as 10 or 9 ends up dropping less into midfield so that we in effect have 2 'false 9s' - something that Man City have done in the past.

It is all about evolving as a team and getting the team to gel as an attacking unit. Having Piroe as a traditional 9 but him not pressing as much would likely mean Summerville having less freedom. Often despite Piroe being '10' and Rutter '9' it has been Summerville popping up in the areas where a '10' would normally be. It is a fluid attack which is shown be the fact the 4 front players have all been scoring goals and the no.9 has least of them all - and whilst Rutter's finishing has been questionable I wouldn't be surprised if he and Piroe have had less shots than Summerville and James.

We are not regimented in how we play and certainly not in how players should play given their shirt number (or assumed number given squad numbers). Players don't simply have their role but often have to be aware of where they need to be if for example one of our fullbacks (or both) are caught upfield and we lose possession. There is structure yet also freedom and getting the balance right all the time is tricky (an example being Ayling who couldn't any longer get back so if he had the freedom he couldn't still give us the structure). This is where at some point the team needs better players as they need players who can do it all and as a team progresses in terms of the quality they play against the weaknesses cannot be masked. We saw that with the Bielsa side and similarly I think Farke had it with his Norwich side, drop back down to the championship and they were fine teams couldn't punish them as easily and Pukki went back to being clinical against lesser keepers.

We don't need to get hung up on where Rutter suposedly plays. He was still playing in the same way he did when he was the 9 but may have been deeper more often today However it was shades of grey rather than black and white.

Farke has turned some talented individuals into a fairly cohesive team but we are still evolving. We were on our knees when he started and he got us walking and then running. He is no doubt still assessing exactly what he has got given that he was probably simply happy to just keep anyone who was willing to stay and could only really attack the transfer market after he got the money for selling Tyler Adams. He will no doubt have a far clearer picture now of where he needs to strengthen and which players are no longer part of his plans. Only 4 of the players who started today played in the first match against Birmingham - and out of those 4 Byram only played 10 minutes today and Gray started in midfield when we played them previously. Ampadu and James were our only other starters fromt hat game and likely James wouldn't have started but for Gnonto and Sinisterra (and possibly Cree) deciding they didn't want to play. For those knocking Farke they really need a reality check in terms of how disruptive it must have been to try to prepare the team in the summer and also realise that the team has been evolving ever since. As a contrast Ipswich had 7 players that started for them today that played when they beat Stoke earlier in the season - the other 4 starters from that day were not even on the bench so I can only presume they are injured otherwise it may well have been close to the same 11. They have a team/squad that has played with each other a lot longer than ours has.

[Cjay]

As well as Ampadu, Kamara interchanged with him, dropping into the left back position, when Firpo was in a forward position, this was a definite ploy from Farke.

A cm covering for the more attacking full back is a common thing in Farke side.

It's also why he got a reputation for being a coach whose teams were vulnerable on transition.

[Cjay]

And when he did drift Kamara slotted into the void, but stats won't tell you that, you have to use your own eyes.

More work by the manager.

Give it a rest Kenneth with your little digs.

Getting a bit tiresome and weirdly obsessed

[DDB220]

I think Firpo is fine defending against championship wingers. We saw 2 years of him defending the likes of Mo Salah. That was scary. This is different. Injuries again - we haven't really seen him get a run of games in the championship. But I think he's fine against this lot. And, as you say, he's better going forward. Farke likes that in his full backs. He wants his full backs to get forward and for Ampadu to drop back and cover.

In short. I think Firpo is fine for this season. If only we could always have one of Firpo or Byram fully fit at all times.

He is better going forwards, he had Kamara assisting as cover when he did. The problem with Firpo is if he gets isolated like Archie often does. This did not happen today but there was one occasion where he was left in the wake of an opposing Birmingham player who accelerated away from him. If those situations can be mitigated then it isn’t such an issue. But there are teams which will be hell bent on capitalising on his lack of pace.
He is quick to recognise the over lap to good effect and not so bad in and around our 18 yard box and defending set pieces, but he can be clumsy and or effective in the tackle in equal measure.
As Faaip says he is best deployed as a wing back. As a full back away from home against teams with pace on the flanks you will not see him cross the halfway line very often.

[weasel]

Now i've always thought Firpo is ok going forward, but scares the life out of me defending, v v early days but there was a bit of a difference in him today (very slight mind) now could that be DF working with him ?

The main trouble with Firpo is he has never had a really long run of matches with us due to his injury problems. We saw with Spence that in his first couple of matches back he was struggling to get back after going forward and that was not a surprise. You go forward and you have the momentum, the adrenaline, you are busting that gut to get forward and join the play. Suddenly the ball is lost and you need to get back but that is when the lack of match fitness kicks in as your body is in need of a breather and you can't get back as quickly as you need to. Spence after those first couple of games looked far better at being able to attack and defend (or at least get back into position) and hopefully that will be the case with Firpo. The time to really start judging Firpo would be after he has had half a dozen games or so in a row and should be at his peak condition.

[andrewjohnsmith]

I would stick with Bamford up top in our next away league game at Cardiff.

Had Paddy not been on the pitch, I doubt Rutter or Piroe would have got onto James excellent cross, a different type of goal for us this season which ultimately broke down a stubborn Brum defence & gave us the lead we required.

Given Bamford's injuries and slow return to full fitness, would seem ideal to put him back on the bench for the cup then start him again in the league. Plus I'd like to see Piroe play in the Bamford role next week.

Given that there's a week between games, I don't think there will be a lot of changes in the cup. but it is an opportunity for a couple of players to get rest, a couple of squad players to get a good run, and work on a couple of tactical alternatives.

[AcrossThePondAsh]

That was the difference I noticed, Ash…think it gave him more energy to do other things. Haven’t seen the heat maps, but Rutter spent a lot more time drifting out to the wings in this one, which has to be a difference shown on the heat maps.

The energy point is a valid one, Joe. As are the points SH and Cjay made regarding the positioning of others players around Geo--in this case, namely PB playing a more traditional nine's positioning and thus opening the middle for Geo's roaming (more of Farke's controlled chaos?).

With regards to the heat maps, while I'm sure they're not an exact science, especially in terms of comparing like for like, Geo's maps almost always show the widest range of movement in the squad, including the wings--he does get around

[weasel]

As well as Ampadu, Kamara interchanged with him, dropping into the left back position, when Firpo was in a forward position, this was a definite ploy from Farke.

Probably more noticeable at the match.

I think today it was a match between a manager using tactics and a manager with limited tactical know how. We set up to be very fluent (as we do in all games) with the seamless interchange of positions as we try to drag teams out of position by encouraging them to follow the man they are meant to be marking or by encouraging them to try to get the ball off us when we play out from the back. Birmingham didn't want to press us high and leave gaps but our movement was good enough to open up gaps, especially for Dan James down the right.

[DDB220]

Given Bamford's injuries and slow return to full fitness, would seem ideal to put him back on the bench for the cup then start him again in the league. Plus I'd like to see Piroe play in the Bamford role next week.

Given that there's a week between games, I don't think there will be a lot of changes in the cup. but it is an opportunity for a couple of players to get rest, a couple of squad players to get a good run, and work on a couple of tactical alternatives.

Piroe for me is a Sheringham style player. He is not the type of player who can lead the line and close down the keeper repeatedly. He is a big dude and probably not suited to the level of cardio required, particularly quick recovery.

He can not play the 9 role like Bamford. But he is a better finisher. If Bamford has got his mojo back and his performance today indicates he has to some degree it provides more options for DF, which can only be to our benefit.

[1964white]

Dan James thinks Patrick Bamford was brilliant today

I applauded Dan, when he chased back 40 yards to hold up a Birmingham winger, as did the rest of the kop. It's not only his goals & assist to admire, it's his phenomenal work rate, too!

[weasel]

Can’t help but wonder if losing to Stoke made Farke overly gun-shy and is why he stuck to the same lineup and tactics for too long. Again, hopefully the result restores his faith in some of his reserves going forward and is something Farke can build on for our push in the second half of the season.

Bring on the transfer window!!

I think you also have to look at all the wins we had either side of that Stoke match. So you then have the fact that the regular XI were winning nearly every match over a decent period combined with the fact the rotated in players played sh*te and I certainly wouldn't have been looking to make changes in haste.

Often as a manager I'd know my strongest XI but then would give fringe players the opportunity to force their way in by playing them in a friendly or a cup match but usually the fringe players just ended up confirming to me why they weren't in my starting plans. If they showed the same amount of effort when playing as they did moaning about not starting then there would have been no problem!!!

[DDB220]

I applauded Dan, when he chased back 40 yards to hold up a Birmingham winger, as did the rest of the kop. It's not only his goals & assist to admire, it's his phenomenal work rate, too!

His cardio recovery must be phenomonal from sprints, He rarely seems to tire.

[Kennyb41]

It's an interesting scenario. I really think Bamford at 9 and Rutter at 10 is our best combination. Piroe would likely end the season with more goals than both combined. But it really looks like us playing to our strengths. Round pegs in round holes. Rutter is our most creative player. He needs to play at 10. He's probably the most talented 10 in the championship. And he fluffs in front of goal. As a 10, he's got every attribute to make us a great attacking team.

Simialrly, Piroe does not physically seem to fit Farke's ideal of a lone striker. Bamford does. We've seen how good he's been at running and pressing. Hopefully after a run of games he can refind his sharpness in front of goal. Maybe not the 17 goal PL season he had. But at least some semblance of that. Piroe needs to work in training and show that he can press like Bamford does. If Bamford could finish like Piroe and Piroe could press like Bamford ....

But I think today's combo is our best. And for Piroe to work on his game and come back in as a 9 when needed,

Oh but fck me Andrew God forbid it didn't come off at the first attempt eh ???!!! Jeez, all the PB know nowts would be feckin slaughtering player and manager....." what the feckin hell's he trying that useless twat for, i could've told him he's a twat"

Leeds fans huh, who'd have em.

[AcrossThePondAsh]

I applauded Dan, when he chased back 40 yards to hold up a Birmingham winger, as did the rest of the kop. It's not only his goals & assist to admire, it's his phenomenal work rate, too!

As they should, '64. Dan may not always pick out the best cross or shot, but you can't critique his work rate. In fact, along with Jimmy, I'd say DF has him running with more purpose, whether that's getting forward or tracking back--making the most of one of Dan's best assets.

[weasel]

It's an interesting scenario. I really think Bamford at 9 and Rutter at 10 is our best combination. Piroe would likely end the season with more goals than both combined. But it really looks like us playing to our strengths. Round pegs in round holes. Rutter is our most creative player. He needs to play at 10. He's probably the most talented 10 in the championship. And he fluffs in front of goal. As a 10, he's got every attribute to make us a great attacking team.

Simialrly, Piroe does not physically seem to fit Farke's ideal of a lone striker. Bamford does. We've seen how good he's been at running and pressing. Hopefully after a run of games he can refind his sharpness in front of goal. Maybe not the 17 goal PL season he had. But at least some semblance of that. Piroe needs to work in training and show that he can press like Bamford does. If Bamford could finish like Piroe and Piroe could press like Bamford ....

But I think today's combo is our best. And for Piroe to work on his game and come back in as a 9 when needed,

I think a lot depends on how the opposition want to play against us. I made the point about the Preston match that we needed someone up front to simply control the ball and either hold onto it or lay off a pass rather than turning into trouble. Maybe against the parked bus defences Bamford is the better fit. Against teams who want to play against us then Piroe is likely the better fit as Cree, James and Rutter will all get more space so it allows Piroe to drift into space and arrive late and hopefully get shots - no point having 20 shots in a 'basketball' type match if you don't have your clinical striker on the pitch. If you look at our wins v Ipswich as an example we were given space to play and Piroe did well.

[Kennyb41]

Give it a rest Kenneth with your little digs.

Getting a bit tiresome and weirdly obsessed

Get to feck, you were in your element when we were running bad, you couldn't stick the knife into DF enough.

And today he's stuck it right up you on a number of fronts.

[Kennyb41]

The main trouble with Firpo is he has never had a really long run of matches with us due to his injury problems. We saw with Spence that in his first couple of matches back he was struggling to get back after going forward and that was not a surprise. You go forward and you have the momentum, the adrenaline, you are busting that gut to get forward and join the play. Suddenly the ball is lost and you need to get back but that is when the lack of match fitness kicks in as your body is in need of a breather and you can't get back as quickly as you need to. Spence after those first couple of games looked far better at being able to attack and defend (or at least get back into position) and hopefully that will be the case with Firpo. The time to really start judging Firpo would be after he has had half a dozen games or so in a row and should be at his peak condition.

Honestly Weasel, if DF can get Firpo summert like with his defending, i really will eat my hat.

I said this about Bert and Dallas though, so i will keep the salt n pepper handy.