Bilesa's teams couldn't defend

[weasel]

I have seen a lot of nonsense spouted about how our defence is a shambles and has been a shambles for years. People suggesting Bielsa couldn't sort out our defence and pointing to the 7-0 defeat to City, conceding 6 to Liverpool and other heavy defeats that we did suffer under Bielsa. The same people refusing to accept how injuries/suspensions to just 1 or 2 player can have a huge effect.

I have already pointed out that in Bielsa's first season in charge we had the 3rd best defence. This was despite having Bailey Peacock-Farrell in net and then a keeper many have dismissed as a clown, Kiko Casillas.

I have already pointed out that in Bielsa's second season in charge we had the best defence. Again this was despite having a 'clown' in net and then a young untested Frenchman, Ilian Messlier, for the final few matches.

Our first season back in the premier league saw us concede 54. Okay not great, just short of 1 1/2 goals conceded per game, but as a newly promoted team with a very inexperienced keeper it wasn't disastrous, 14th best in the league, and considering our attacking style fairly much acceptable. We did have a few injuries throughout the season, especially to the 2 new centrebacks we'd bought, Robin Koch and Diego Llorente, but it is noticeable that we conceded just 8 goals during our last 11 matches. Whilst it can be easy to cherry pick one group of matches to make an argument it is worth noting that in those 11 matches we played Chelsea, Man City, Liverpool, Man Utd and Spurs.

In those 11 matches Llorente played 10 of them, in his preferred position. 4 times Cooper was alongside him and 7 times it was Struyjk - so in those 11 matches we had a left footed centreback on the left side every match. Ayling played all 11 matches. Noticeably Kalvin Phillips played in 9 of those matches, protecting the defence, in those 9 matches we conceded just 5 goals. In the 2 matches where KP was absent Robin Koch played as the defensive midfielder, we conceded 3 times in those 2 matches including our only loss which was a 2-0 defeat to Brighton.

Apart from how much stronger KP made us, something that was also evident in the championship, it shows that when we had a fairly settled defence, with players in their preferred position we could and did defend well. And we still have the nucleus of that defence. We can play Ayling at right back and we can play Llorente next to Struyjk or Cooper. Okay we no longer have Alioski at left back but we can have Wober, Firpo or even Struyjk there (if Cooper is centreback). What we do need though is Adams playing more like KP did.

We have the players at the club to be able to be decent defensively. We also don't need to sacrifice our attacking intent fully to be better defensviely (we scored 19 in those 11 matches despite the quality of the opposition).

People will continue to knock Bielsa and say he couldn't organise a defence and suggest injuries had no part in the defensive weakness in season 2021-2022 whatsoever but the above shows that the team quite clearly could defend when we had key players fit.

[velo]

Yawn

[Jaydog]

Marsch isn’t going to revert to setting up like Bielsa. So he’s not going to use Adams to protect the back 4 a la KP. So what can he do to make us more solid at the back. Whatever he is doing doesn’t look like a work in progress to me, in other words it doesn’t look like he’s about to crack the case does it.

[AylingFlop]

Marsch isn’t going to revert to setting up like Bielsa. So he’s not going to use Adams to protect the back 4 a la KP. So what can he do to make us more solid at the back. Whatever he is doing doesn’t look like a work in progress to me, in other words it doesn’t look like he’s about to crack the case does it.

[1964white]

I have seen a lot of nonsense spouted about how our defence is a shambles and has been a shambles for years.

It's not nonsense whatsoever!

[weasel]

It's not nonsense whatsoever!

It is complete nonsense. People judging Bielsa based on the 26 matches of the 2021-2022 season and spouting their drivel instead of actually looking at facts. How can we be a defensive shambles when we were 3rd best and then1st best in the championship? You lauded Monk for giving us a stable defence yet Bielsa's championship winning side destroyed his goals conceded record by a huge 12 goals less conceded.

All we hear is the same sh*t regurgitated time and again about conceding 7 to City, 6 to Liverpool, 3 to Everton etc. People saying the absence of key players doesn't make a difference which is just a complete nonsense or any team would be able to beat any other team if having better players is irrelevant.

I show you that when we had a settled defence and KP playing how we were defensively solid - and how even during that period of 8 goals conceded in just 11 premier league matches that 3 of the 8 came in 2 matches when KP was absent and Robin Koch was playing defensive midfield.

If we took the 11 matches at the end of the 2020-2021 season and replicated it over the season we would have had the best defensive record in the premier league. And whilst you, and others, will no doubt scoff and say yes but that was just an 11 game sequence so you can't definitively say that would have happened over the season I have already pointed out that it was an 11 game sequence in which we played 5 out of the top 6 teams (5th placed Arsenal being the odd team out).

I just like people basing arguments on facts and reasons rather than smoke coming out of their ar$e.

[Cjay]

Bielsa teams couldn't defend in the sense they weren't set up to be defensively solid.

That isn't his way.

Controlling games, keeping the opposition pegged back, limiting chances.

But it isnt solid defending, it's relentless attacking.

His teams have always conceded plenty of goals.

The 52 goals Bilbao conceded in his best season hasn't been matched in 10 years since he left.

The 65 league goals conceded in his last season is the 2nd highest league total for Bilbao since records began in 1928.

He broke literal records for goals conceded whilst here, yes injuries etc but hundreds of teams will have had injuries over the years and still didn't manage to break records.

His teams aren't set up defensively, he'd never say they were and would never claim to be be great defensive coach like a Mourinho.

It's high octane intense attacking football.

But as a defensive unit it is deeply deeply flawed tactically hence why as I say he broke records at 2 clubs for conceding goals.

Which is why nobody copies his way exactly, its unique to him.

So I disagree with op, if you look for excuses you will find them for most managers.

Bottom line though is Bielsa teams famously concede goals.

[1964white]

If we took the 11 matches at the end of the 2020-2021 season and replicated it over the season we would have had the best defensive record in the premier league.

That short period was our best defensive show from any coach in the last couple of decades.

Whenever Kalvin was missing, it was a major problem.

A similar consequence will occur if Adams misses games this season.

Why we are so reliant on one player in the middle spine of our teams is so frustrating.

Bamford is another big defensive miss as not one No.9 has held the ball up as well as Paddy, also Bamford wins a lot of defensive headers.

Still believe Kristensen, Coops, Koch, Pascal, Firpo are fragile, all of them make daft errors.

[weasel]

Bielsa teams couldn't defend in the sense they weren't set up to be defensively solid.

That isn't his way.

Controlling games, keeping the opposition pegged back, limiting chances.

But it isnt solid defending, it's relentless attacking.

His teams have always conceded plenty of goals.

The 52 goals Bilbao conceded in his best season hasn't been matched in 10 years since he left.

The 65 league goals conceded in his last season is the 2nd highest league total for Bilbao since records began in 1928.

He broke literal records for goals conceded whilst here, yes injuries etc but hundreds of teams will have had injuries over the years and still didn't manage to break records.

His teams aren't set up defensively, he'd never say they were and would never claim to be be great defensive coach like a Mourinho.

It's high octane intense attacking football.

But as a defensive unit it is deeply deeply flawed tactically hence why as I say he broke records at 2 clubs for conceding goals.

Which is why nobody copies his way exactly, its unique to him.

So I disagree with op, if you look for excuses you will find them for most managers.

Bottom line though is Bielsa teams famously concede goals.

A lot of people on here could learn a lot from you Cjay in how to present a case. You back up your opinions with facts. I agree with you that Bielsa sides are not set up to defend, it is the we'll score more than you approach and of course playing such an attacking way is always likely to lead to conceding more than a defensive side would. However he showed in the 2 championship seasons and those 11 matches with a more settled defence that his teams weren't just leaking goals which is the point I was making. Maybe he did make us a bit more pragmatic than at his other teams but it did rely on having KP fit - you yourself highlighted KP's importance to us in the Championship and so perhaps it is a big flaw in that Bielsa needs a player like how he moulded KP or his system doesn't work - likely why City paid the money they did as they want to have reliable back-up if Rodri gets injured.

Bielsa's biggest flaw would seemingly be not having an adequate back-up for KP. Supposedly he was very keen on Lewis O'Brien and who knows what would have happened if we'd have signed him. We may have seen Bielsa turn him into an adequate replacement for KP and we wouldn't have had the problems.

As for his record at Bilbao it isn't like they have hugely improved defensively since Bielsa left despite possibly having more pragmatic managers. They have conceded upwards of 40 goals in 6 of the 9 seasons since Bielsa left and the 49 conceded in 1 season is only 3 shy of how many they conceded under Bielsa.

[weasel]

That short period was our best defensive show from any coach in the last couple of decades.

Whenever Kalvin was missing, it was a major problem.

A similar consequence will occur if Adams misses games this season.

Why we are so reliant on one player in the middle spine of our teams is so frustrating.

Bamford is another big defensive miss as not one No.9 has held the ball up as well as Paddy, also Bamford wins a lot of defensive headers.

Still believe Kristensen, Coops, Koch, Pascal, Firpo are fragile, all of them make daft errors.

It was highlighted even in the championship how bad our record was without KP. It would seem Bielsa's biggest failing was in not getting anyone to play anywhere near to KP's level - although given KP's worth maybe it isn't easy to convert players to that level overnight.

Certainly interesting that you have found out that that period is our best defensive showing in the last 2 decades, We were really tight defensively under Grayson in the first half of our League 1 promotion year (seemed to fall apart defensively after the MU cup win). It certainly shows that the players could defend in a Bielsa system given the level of opposition we faced.

[Cjay]

A lot of people on here could learn a lot from you Cjay in how to present a case. You back up your opinions with facts. I agree with you that Bielsa sides are not set up to defend, it is the we'll score more than you approach and of course playing such an attacking way is always likely to lead to conceding more than a defensive side would. However he showed in the 2 championship seasons and those 11 matches with a more settled defence that his teams weren't just leaking goals which is the point I was making. Maybe he did make us a bit more pragmatic than at his other teams but it did rely on having KP fit - you yourself highlighted KP's importance to us in the Championship and so perhaps it is a big flaw in that Bielsa needs a player like how he moulded KP or his system doesn't work - likely why City paid the money they did as they want to have reliable back-up if Rodri gets injured.

Bielsa's biggest flaw would seemingly be not having an adequate back-up for KP. Supposedly he was very keen on Lewis O'Brien and who knows what would have happened if we'd have signed him. We may have seen Bielsa turn him into an adequate replacement for KP and we wouldn't have had the problems.

As for his record at Bilbao it isn't like they have hugely improved defensively since Bielsa left despite possibly having more pragmatic managers. They have conceded upwards of 40 goals in 6 of the 9 seasons since Bielsa left and the 49 conceded in 1 season is only 3 shy of how many they conceded under Bielsa.

Same to you pal, put a lot of thought into your posts which is respect

I think simply the Championship was more of a level playing field and it enabled his style to work as close as possible to how he wanted.

And in that sense you could see it being the all round unit he intended and not conceding because the opposition barely had the ball.

Comparative to say Pep' Barcelona or Man City.

Are they wonderful defensive units? No, teams can get at them on the break.

But they keep the ball so well and exhaust the opposition to a point they barely get a chance.

And of course they have elite players defensively for those rare occasions it does happen.

As a system if you had robots (as Bielsa once said) then Bielsa would concede goals very rarely because if would play out exactly as he intends.

But as a style in reality without elite players it's flawed.

[Mountain]

Bielsa teams couldn't defend in the sense they weren't set up to be defensively solid.

That isn't his way.

Controlling games, keeping the opposition pegged back, limiting chances.

But it isnt solid defending, it's relentless attacking.

His teams have always conceded plenty of goals.

The 52 goals Bilbao conceded in his best season hasn't been matched in 10 years since he left.

The 65 league goals conceded in his last season is the 2nd highest league total for Bilbao since records began in 1928.

He broke literal records for goals conceded whilst here, yes injuries etc but hundreds of teams will have had injuries over the years and still didn't manage to break records.

His teams aren't set up defensively, he'd never say they were and would never claim to be be great defensive coach like a Mourinho.

It's high octane intense attacking football.

But as a defensive unit it is deeply deeply flawed tactically hence why as I say he broke records at 2 clubs for conceding goals.

Which is why nobody copies his way exactly, its unique to him.

So I disagree with op, if you look for excuses you will find them for most managers.

Bottom line though is Bielsa teams famously concede goals.

It was beautiful. We will never see it again.

I've said it before, it was like One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest. Bielsa was like RP McMurphy, brilliant, defiant, a nonconformist. He tore up the rule book and freed us from conformity. We insisted the payers were Championship level, he showed us they weren't, we insisted football was all about 3 points, he showed us its about how the game is played, we insisted that football has certain truths like it starts with the defenders, he showed us its far more intricate, we insisted that if we deem a player isn't good enough, the cheque book has to be flashed, he showed that coaching people to be better is actually very much the job of the manager.

But it was just all too much, as it was for Bielsa's Leeds, for the players, the owners, everyone, Bielsa, like McMurphy was sacrificed, and order was restored.

[Overman]

Yawn

Ditto,

Just another wind up, for the MB cult.

[Mountain]

Ditto,

Just another wind up, for the MB cult.

But the Bielsa haters don't have to read. Afaik, participation is not compulsory. Is it? Weasel, are you forcing people to read and respond? Are you controlling people with your mind again? Cut that out!

[weasel]

Everything falling apart


A few months later

Time, there's always time
On my mind
Pass me by, I'll be fine
Just give me time

[weasel]

But the Bielsa haters don't have to read. Afaik, participation is not compulsory. Is it? Weasel, are you forcing people to read and respond? Are you controlling people with your mind again? Cut that out!

Certainly not. I think they prove the point I made by their inability to debate. Cjay showed how it is possible to take a differing view and debate properly. Just waiting for one to spout 7-0, 6-0 etc again.

[Irish Ian]

Teams who cant defend dont get promoted they get relegated.

Neither happened on his watch.

Bielsas teams were not defensive though, and we are all grateful for that

[Irish Ian]

Everything falling apart


A few months later

Time, there's always time
On my mind
Pass me by, I'll be fine
Just give me time

That top pic was at QPR wasnt it? Looks like it.

Baker came on and got booked, Dallas came on and hit the post.

The Bielsa decriers jumped on the belief that having Dallas fit was a waste of a place in the side..

The first of many vindications for the great man was Stuey Dallas

[velo]

Is Weasel Nicola Sturgeon's alter ego, keep posting til he gets the result he wants

[Overman]

But the Bielsa haters don't have to read. Afaik, participation is not compulsory. Is it? Weasel, are you forcing people to read and respond? Are you controlling people with your mind again? Cut that out!

You've certainly pipped up. I don't hate anyone my good man, such a futile waste of time and energy. I see this forum with subtle indifference and humour. I rarely ever take it seriously.