What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

Post by Cjay »

Carrick Dave wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 10:53 pm Why don’t they just sell their 44% share for £200m and walk away? Same profit, no hassle.
That's the question I suppose.

They can potentially make a profit now.

Why risk hundreds of millions of investor money to possibly make no profit down the line?

In a League full of wealthy billionaires who don't have to worry about investors just themselves where do they see a profit?
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

Post by Irish Ian »

Cjay wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:18 pm That first sentence is the nightmare scenario imo.

But again experience in the NFL is one thing, Premier League is a different beast with a very uneven playing field.

It's even different from when John Henry took over Liverpool.

A lot more wealth and a lot more willing to invest.

Maybe the time of the American dream has past? Hence the two biggest names getting out (Glazers and FSG)
Cjay they all borrow to invest.

Leveraging.

You borrow from one of your other businesses (and in doing so increase their value and share price or their investment potential) Then invest the money and grow both.


SF are pretty good at it.

They have made significant exits eg Dropbox, but in the main they are bloody good at growing their investment.

You equate venture Capitalism as asset strippers, that doesn't appear to be the 49ers model.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Irish Ian wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:01 am Cjay they all borrow to invest.

Leveraging.

You borrow from one of your other businesses (and in doing so increase their value and share price or their investment potential) Then invest the money and grow both.


SF are pretty good at it.

They have made significant exits eg Dropbox, but in the main they are bloody good at growing their investment.

You equate venture Capitalism as asset strippers, that doesn't appear to be the 49ers model.
The head of the FA said few months back they are keen to make sure leveraged buyouts are much heavier scrutinised after Burnley.

Fundamentally borrowing money to buy a football club which you then use the club to pay back is not good.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... ackdown%2F

Premier league football clubs aren't normal businesses, the risk to the club is far greater.

You say 49ers Enterprises are good at growing businesses.

So were Tom Hicks and George Gillet.

Many very successful people have bought a club and despite making absolute fortunes in business found they haven't a clue how to run one successfully.

Not saying they are asset strippers but every venture capital fund only wants profit any way it can.

If that means taking from the club (as the Glazers did) they will.

LUFC isn't Manchester United or Liverpool, we would never be able to service debts of hundreds of millions of pounds.

So if they leveraged the buyout using loans set against the club then we would be knackered.

A relegation away from disaster.

But my question was does a quick flip make more sense than them trying to run the club and grow it?

Sell now for £100mil profit or risk £100s of millions more to wait years for potentially none?

They can potentially make a profit now, I don't see why they'd risk more money when the biggest players of a similar background are now looking to get out.

With Liverpool and Manure for sale potential buyers for football clubs will be on high alert.

This may be the best time ever to convince someone maybe with the means to buy them but not sure about spending £3,4,5,6,7billion on a football club that they can have one with plenty if potential for a fraction of the cost?
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Get used to it.

Also 49ers leverage all sorts of businesses to fund the sporting side of the organisation, so it is quite possible that Leeds become the beneficiaries of that type of activity.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Cjay wrote: Wed Nov 23, 2022 11:17 pm They took the risk initially by taking advantage of a desperate seller and getting him to part with nearly half of his asset for below market value.

They've been here nearly 5 years now.

Why take more risk ? I firmly believe buyers would come for LUFC at the £450-500mil mark.

For £700mil+ not a chance.
I don't think there would be buyers looking to take the risk given our league position. It would be a huge risk. I know that the Saudis came in for Newcastle and they were in a worse position but the Saudis have endless pockets - as such for someone to come in for now it would have to be someone who would be able to take the financial hit of relegation in their stride. Hugely different scenario with Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U etc as they aren't in danger of relegation and their only concern is whether they finish top 4 or not, they don't even need to worry about winning the league as financially the only difference is a few million quid.

I think the Liverpool and MU owners probably weren't expecting anyone to pay what they did to buy Chelsea and now see that they could sell their club for a huge profit - and likely this could be the peak value. Also the concerns for the owners of Liverpool would be that the squad might need quite a big overhaul and that costs money, their golden few years might be at an end and with Arsenal and Newcastle's emergence the top 4 isn't the safe bet it has been for the last few years.

I think both AR and the 49ers have been hedging their bets somewhat. AR selling us bit by bit so he gets somewhere between the value of the club now and the value if relegated. As such he has lessened the financial risk to himself and will still have made a decent profit if we go down. The 49ers have bought at less than the value so they won't take as big a hit if we go down. Both obviously stand to make more money if we stay up but they don't have the full extreme boom or bust scenario.

It's hard really to see the huge attraction for people looking to buy us. Like you have shown with your projections of future income there isn't a great profit to be had unless we either get into the champions league or develop a really successful buying and selling market with our players. The way to make big money would seem to only exist now if we were to be taken over by someone with the money to turn us into a top 4 club.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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weasel wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:58 am I don't think there would be buyers looking to take the risk given our league position. It would be a huge risk. I know that the Saudis came in for Newcastle and they were in a worse position but the Saudis have endless pockets - as such for someone to come in for now it would have to be someone who would be able to take the financial hit of relegation in their stride. Hugely different scenario with Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U etc as they aren't in danger of relegation and their only concern is whether they finish top 4 or not, they don't even need to worry about winning the league as financially the only difference is a few million quid.

I think the Liverpool and MU owners probably weren't expecting anyone to pay what they did to buy Chelsea and now see that they could sell their club for a huge profit - and likely this could be the peak value. Also the concerns for the owners of Liverpool would be that the squad might need quite a big overhaul and that costs money, their golden few years might be at an end and with Arsenal and Newcastle's emergence the top 4 isn't the safe bet it has been for the last few years.

I think both AR and the 49ers have been hedging their bets somewhat. AR selling us bit by bit so he gets somewhere between the value of the club now and the value if relegated. As such he has lessened the financial risk to himself and will still have made a decent profit if we go down. The 49ers have bought at less than the value so they won't take as big a hit if we go down. Both obviously stand to make more money if we stay up but they don't have the full extreme boom or bust scenario.

It's hard really to see the huge attraction for people looking to buy us. Like you have shown with your projections of future income there isn't a great profit to be had unless we either get into the champions league or develop a really successful buying and selling market with our players. The way to make big money would seem to only exist now if we were to be taken over by someone with the money to turn us into a top 4 club.
We also need to add stadium redevelopment and a new training ground to the list, as well as buying back ER. No one will spend near a £1bn on a club like us. It's just deluded and blocks potential owners.

People will use Leicester as an example, but they've only qualified for the UCL once and are now losing £100ms that the owners can't afford. They're the perfect example of a club who overstretched themselves beyond their true level.
Last edited by SG90 on Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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I'm reading that the Saudis may be circling with interest in Liverpool and Manure.

Looks like the options are now.

1. Sportwashing
2. Hedge Fund.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Irish Ian wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 12:10 pm I'm reading that the Saudis may be circling with interest in Liverpool and Manure.

Looks like the options are now.

1. Sportwashing
2. Hedge Fund.
I can't think of a worse owner than someone using us to sportswash ....
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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weasel wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 10:58 am I don't think there would be buyers looking to take the risk given our league position. It would be a huge risk. I know that the Saudis came in for Newcastle and they were in a worse position but the Saudis have endless pockets - as such for someone to come in for now it would have to be someone who would be able to take the financial hit of relegation in their stride. Hugely different scenario with Chelsea, Liverpool, Man U etc as they aren't in danger of relegation and their only concern is whether they finish top 4 or not, they don't even need to worry about winning the league as financially the only difference is a few million quid.

I think the Liverpool and MU owners probably weren't expecting anyone to pay what they did to buy Chelsea and now see that they could sell their club for a huge profit - and likely this could be the peak value. Also the concerns for the owners of Liverpool would be that the squad might need quite a big overhaul and that costs money, their golden few years might be at an end and with Arsenal and Newcastle's emergence the top 4 isn't the safe bet it has been for the last few years.

I think both AR and the 49ers have been hedging their bets somewhat. AR selling us bit by bit so he gets somewhere between the value of the club now and the value if relegated. As such he has lessened the financial risk to himself and will still have made a decent profit if we go down. The 49ers have bought at less than the value so they won't take as big a hit if we go down. Both obviously stand to make more money if we stay up but they don't have the full extreme boom or bust scenario.

It's hard really to see the huge attraction for people looking to buy us. Like you have shown with your projections of future income there isn't a great profit to be had unless we either get into the champions league or develop a really successful buying and selling market with our players. The way to make big money would seem to only exist now if we were to be taken over by someone with the money to turn us into a top 4 club.
That's the bit that I don't get

I could understand the scenario I laid out before, buy for £373mil and flip very quickly for £475mil (if they can find a buyer).

What I can't understand is why they would buy us, run us and risk getting nothing.

Nobody is paying north of £500mil for us any time soon.

We need probably £150-200mil investing just in the stadium and training ground.

Just that alone takes them past £500mil investment and that is without the needed capital for player investment.

Yes they may be able to get a few pounds more sponsorship, they aren't getting much more without pushing us up the table (which takes even more money).

I simply don't see a scenario (if they operate like a usual venture capital fund) with minimal owner investment where they can hope to improve us any where near enough to attract the sort of buyers they would need for a decent profit.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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SG90 wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 12:42 pm We also need to add stadium redevelopment and a new training ground to the list, as well as buying back ER. No one will spend near a £1bn on a club like us. It's just deluded and blocks potential owners.

People will use Leicester as an example, but they've only qualified for the PL once and are now losing £100ms that the owners can't afford. They're the perfect example of a club who overstretched themselves beyond their true level.
True

Then what is the 49ers plan?

Because once you take into account the stadium and training ground you already need a £700mil buyer just for a decent profit.

That is before any investment for players (venture capital funds in football tend not to do that so again no different from Radz).

But if they wanted to protect there investment they'd surely need to pump in a £100mil for arguments sake.

Now you are close to needing someone to pay a £1billion.

I've said all along the one thing I can't see (aside from the quick flip scenario) is the profit for them?
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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The big unknown is what the 49ers want.

But allowing Leeds to be used as a vehicle to build brand awareness in the NFL isnt to be ignored.

Especially as that sport is gaining traction in Europe. It is hard to put a number on that.

Elland Road ( or a new ground) used as a host for future big events, gigs other sports is where the money is.

But it may not all be about profitability.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Irish Ian wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 1:26 pm The big unknown is what the 49ers want.

But allowing Leeds to be used as a vehicle to build brand awareness in the NFL isnt to be ignored.

Especially as that sport is gaining traction in Europe. It is hard to put a number on that.

Elland Road ( or a new ground) used as a host for future big events, gigs other sports is where the money is.

But it may not all be about profitability.
The problem is, unless the club actually owns ER, rather than owners, any extra events will go into their back pockets and not the club's coffers.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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SG90 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 2:20 pm The problem is, unless the club actually owns ER, rather than owners, any extra events will go into their back pockets and not the club's coffers.
You seem really hung up on this about the ground.


https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshi ... -ownership


"The parent company of Leeds United has acquired Elland Road, returning it after more than a decade to the ownership of the football club.

Greenfield Investment Pte, an Aser Group company belonging to chairman Andrea Radrizzani, has acquired Elland Road Stadium for the club.

The Old Peacock Ground has been Leeds’ home since 1919 and today’s and it was sold in 2004, during a period of financial difficulty.

Chairman Andrea Radrizzani said: “Today is an important day in our history and a proud day for me and my team.

“When I met with both management and supporters during my first few months at the club, the purchase of Elland Road was very high on their list of priorities and I’m delighted to be able to announce that we have completed that process today.”"

The same person who owns Leeds is Radrizanni. He uses his business Acer Ventures to care for this.
He also owns Greenfield Investments which is also a parent company of Leeds.
Leeds Utd plc pay no rent.





Radz owns both so if he was to sell his share in Leeds that includes the ground as it does the other facilities, the contracts, and the debts.

The ground is the biggest roadblock to outward investment though.


Perhaps you could explain what your difficulty with Radz owning the stadium is?
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Irish Ian wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:11 pm You seem really hung up on this about the ground.


https://www.thebusinessdesk.com/yorkshi ... -ownership


"The parent company of Leeds United has acquired Elland Road, returning it after more than a decade to the ownership of the football club.

Greenfield Investment Pte, an Aser Group company belonging to chairman Andrea Radrizzani, has acquired Elland Road Stadium for the club.

The Old Peacock Ground has been Leeds’ home since 1919 and today’s and it was sold in 2004, during a period of financial difficulty.

Chairman Andrea Radrizzani said: “Today is an important day in our history and a proud day for me and my team.

“When I met with both management and supporters during my first few months at the club, the purchase of Elland Road was very high on their list of priorities and I’m delighted to be able to announce that we have completed that process today.”"

The same person who owns Leeds is Radrizanni. He uses his business Acer Ventures to care for this.
He also owns Greenfield Investments which is also a parent company of Leeds.
Leeds Utd plc pay no rent.





Radz owns both so if he was to sell his share in Leeds that includes the ground as it does the other facilities, the contracts, and the debts.

The ground is the biggest roadblock to outward investment though.


Perhaps you could explain what your difficulty with Radz owning the stadium is?
The club should own it, not businessmen looking to fill their wallets. Look at the issues Coventry have had for example.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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SG90 wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 3:20 pm The club should own it, not businessmen looking to fill their wallets. Look at the issues Coventry have had for example.
For the last time.

Radz owns BOTH.

Unless he falls out with himself we are ok.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Irish Ian wrote: Fri Nov 25, 2022 4:13 pm For the last time.

Radz owns BOTH.

Unless he falls out with himself we are ok.
We pay rent on ER, so we don't own it.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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https://www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/ ... ts-3936552

Finance expert Kieran Maguire casts doubt on the potential takeover.

Seen a few (think the Financial Times) did a piece on the issues facing people like FSG and Glazers and I assume 49ers.

The lack of bite in ffp curbing the wealthier clubs spending power.

But also things like Interest rates and what not (someone far more qualified than me may be able to explain more).

But it isn't purely a football thing, financial climate etc.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Cjay wrote: Thu Nov 24, 2022 1:03 am The head of the FA said few months back they are keen to make sure leveraged buyouts are much heavier scrutinised after Burnley.

Fundamentally borrowing money to buy a football club which you then use the club to pay back is not good.

https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fw ... ackdown%2F

Premier league football clubs aren't normal businesses, the risk to the club is far greater.

You say 49ers Enterprises are good at growing businesses.

So were Tom Hicks and George Gillet.

Many very successful people have bought a club and despite making absolute fortunes in business found they haven't a clue how to run one successfully.

Not saying they are asset strippers but every venture capital fund only wants profit any way it can.

If that means taking from the club (as the Glazers did) they will.

LUFC isn't Manchester United or Liverpool, we would never be able to service debts of hundreds of millions of pounds.

So if they leveraged the buyout using loans set against the club then we would be knackered.

A relegation away from disaster.

But my question was does a quick flip make more sense than them trying to run the club and grow it?

Sell now for £100mil profit or risk £100s of millions more to wait years for potentially none?

They can potentially make a profit now, I don't see why they'd risk more money when the biggest players of a similar background are now looking to get out.

With Liverpool and Manure for sale potential buyers for football clubs will be on high alert.

This may be the best time ever to convince someone maybe with the means to buy them but not sure about spending £3,4,5,6,7billion on a football club that they can have one with plenty if potential for a fraction of the cost?
To be honest, my worry would be who they sold to. I’m not a fan of shared ownership as I feel it has impacted on the running of the club since they became involved.
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Lufcheidi wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:48 pm To be honest, my worry would be who they sold to. I’m not a fan of shared ownership as I feel it has impacted on the running of the club since they became involved.
Fully agree on both counts.

Welcome to the forum Heidi :)
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Re: What is the point of 49ers Enterprises?

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Cjay wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:12 pm Fully agree on both counts.

Welcome to the forum Heidi :)
Thank you
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