Covid

[The Subhuman]

As funny as Ant & Dec

Certainly a lot more intelligent ...

[rab_rant]

Don't forget Russell Brand...

Cool media

With regards Neal Oliver, and Russell Brand but perhaps not the wit and wisdom of Ant and Dec, it is fairly obvious to me that the attacks followed the Ad hominem logical fallacy.

Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument. (Note that "ad hominem" can also refer to the dialectical strategy of arguing on the basis of the opponent's own commitments. This type of ad hominem is not a fallacy.)

Circumstantial ad hominem – stating that the arguer's personal situation or perceived benefit from advancing a conclusion means that their conclusion is wrong.

Poisoning the well – a subtype of ad hominem presenting adverse information about a target person with the intention of discrediting everything that the target person says.

Appeal to motive – dismissing an idea by questioning the motives of its proposer.

Tone policing – focusing on emotion behind (or resulting from) a message rather than the message itself as a discrediting tactic.

Traitorous critic fallacy (ergo decedo, 'thus leave') – a critic's perceived affiliation is portrayed as the underlying reason for the criticism and the critic is asked to stay away from the issue altogether. Easily confused with the association fallacy ("guilt by association") below.

Appeal to authority (argument from authority, argumentum ad verecundiam) – an assertion is deemed true because of the position or authority of the person asserting it. we have to listen to Faucci

Appeal to accomplishment – an assertion is deemed true or false based on the accomplishments of the proposer. This may often also have elements of appeal to emotion (see below). Fauci once again

Courtier's reply – a criticism is dismissed by claiming that the critic lacks sufficient knowledge, credentials, or training to credibly comment on the subject matter. A way of getting at Oliver.

[Gandalf]

Courtier's reply – a criticism is dismissed by claiming that the critic lacks sufficient knowledge, credentials, or training to credibly comment on the subject matter. A way of getting at Oliver.

A lot of big words there, Rab. I hope you copied and pasted it. I will plead guilty to the last one. Although I was also "getting at" people who blindly believe what he is saying.

[Sara]

But then they are accurate. Because, of course, when it comes to vaccines, the vast majority are uneducated, we have no idea one way or another. And that includes Neil Oliver, who as I understand is an expert on history (and coasts!), I'm not aware of one qualification he has in the topics he now analyses. It's the classic problem these days, social media and the availability of information suddenly elevates everyone to being an expert. The reality is his opinion is of little more interest than a drunk droning on on a barstool, he just happens to be more articulate and has a platform.

He's talking about history. He's a historian.

[Mick Jones shoulder]

Still banging on about this

[The Subhuman]

A lot of big words there, Rab. I hope you copied and pasted it. I will plead guilty to the last one. Although I was also "getting at" people who blindly believe what he is saying.

What did he say that wasn't believable...

[rab_rant]

Lets listen to Fauci on masks. He knows what he is taking about. Hot media not recommended for some viewers

straight from the horses mouth Dr Anthony says according to the CDC if you are vaccinated you don't need to wear a mask. You can trust him.

[rab_rant]

Dr Anthony now advises to double mask.You can trust his expertise... though the CDC does not hold this position... what' s a poor boy bound to think

[rab_rant]

A lot of big words there, Rab. I hope you copied and pasted it. I will plead guilty to the last one. Although I was also "getting at" people who blindly believe what he is saying.

and also the appeal to authority. stating that Fauci has the proper credentials therefore we must believe him.

[Gandalf]

What did he say that wasn't believable...

His whole premise, basically - That Austria's recent decisions re lockdowns on the un-vaccinated will lead us to Armageddon, as can be seen by past history. Backed up by the stories such as the Austrian brothel, and Gibraltar - Christmas hasn't been cancelled there btw just corporate Christmas parties. No surprise that it is GB News that has given him the platform. Scaremongering on an epic scale.

If history repeats itself, we would be at war with the French permanently.

[The Subhuman]

Don't remember him saying Christmas had been cancelled in Gibralter, do recall him saying the island is 100% vaccinated yet still suffering from Covid

The Germans did spread the typhus rumour about the Jews... there are parallels albeit not serious ones atm, but we are getting riots in some countries

Scaremongering is the weapon of choice for governments atm and the media. We pick and choose what to believe.. The media scaremongering over covid is fine (good media doing their job) but they're wrong when they scaremonger about shortages which result in panic buying (bad media, what do they think they're doing?)

[Gandalf]

Don't remember him saying Christmas had been cancelled, do recall him saying the island is 100% vaccinated yet still suffering from Covid

I will check again

His comments were probably prompted from the red top headlines re Gibraltar cancelling Christmas despite being 100% vaccinated. Forgetting the huge influx of people that tourism brings to the island. I agree that vaccination does not stop you getting Covid, and I can see that some people don't like the loss of civil liberties that mandatory vaccination would entail, but he used the situation to bring up most of the woes of the world - so the Austrian brothel allowed him to pontificate against the sex slave trade. What has that got to do with the price of fish.

[Mountain]

He's talking about history. He's a historian.

I listened to it for a couple of minutes and he was talking about current affairs, specifically Austria today. And struggling. I'm glad to hear he dropped it and went back into discussing history after that.

[Gandalf]

He's talking about history. He's a historian.

If he is, he's not a very good one. See my replies to Faaip above for a more detailed reply. I can't be arsed repeating myself. I've wasted too much time on this as it is.

[1964white]

If he is, he's not a very good one. See my replies to Faaip above for a more detailed reply. I can't be arsed repeating myself. I've wasted too much time on this as it is.

[Mountain]

Cool media

With regards Neal Oliver, and Russell Brand but perhaps not the wit and wisdom of Ant and Dec, it is fairly obvious to me that the attacks followed the Ad hominem logical fallacy.

Ad hominem – attacking the arguer instead of the argument. (Note that "ad hominem" can also refer to the dialectical strategy of arguing on the basis of the opponent's own commitments. This type of ad hominem is not a fallacy.)

As hominem usually denotes a personal attack or attack on character.

It is perfectly acceptable and legitimate to question someone's credentials and qualifications. In fact, it's so standard that in forums like Courts an expert witness will often set out their experience in an area.

The suggestion that it's unfair to point to a lack of expertise again goes to the heart of what I say.
In this day and age of access to information everyone thinks they're an expert, while peer reviewed science journals are regarded as no more authoritative than GB News.

[The Subhuman]

His comments were probably prompted from the red top headlines re Gibraltar cancelling Christmas despite being 100% vaccinated. Forgetting the huge influx of people that tourism brings to the island. I agree that vaccination does not stop you getting Covid, and I can see that some people don't like the loss of civil liberties that mandatory vaccination would entail, but he used the situation to bring up most of the woes of the world - so the Austrian brothel allowed him to pontificate against the sex slave trade. What has that got to do with the price of fish.

Doesn't stop you getting it, doesn't stop you giving it. It's a personal protection, not a cure but those not taking it are getting vilified and bullied for their choice and that's just plain wrong in a democracy..

We don't know now what this might do to future generations down the line or the young of today.. So many medications have been labeled safe only to prove disastrous down the line... This vaccine has been massively undertested, rushed and the producers get a pass if it does turn to s**t in 5 years..

I'm happy to take the risk, but I understand if other don't want to especially the young for whom Covid is 10 minute flu symptoms.

[1964white]

Screenshot 2021-11-23 11.07.50.png (260.14 KiB) Viewed 669 times

Dr David Lloyd is a GP who supports mandatory vaccination, at least for adults — arguing that there should be a fine for those who refuse to comply

Yes, it is controversial, but I am a GP who supports mandatory vaccination, at least for adults — and what's more, there should be a fine for those who refuse to comply.

As someone who has been on the frontline of this thing (and who is in the unusual position of splitting my work between Covid patients and non-Covid patients), I strongly believe that the time has come for the UK to take a stronger line, as European countries are doing.

Frankly, we have no other choice, because asking people to be vaccinated is simply not working and the anti-vaxxers are threatening our recovery.

And it's time to do it now.

At every step we have been too slow, and have been surprised by the ferocity of what has come. And now here we are, sitting on a fourth wave and we do not know what variants are coming.

There are those who say obliging people to be vaccinated is too much, that it is not British, it is a challenge to democracy.

I have read of Austria — where the country is now in another lockdown, as the laws go through — being called a dictatorship. I do not agree. There is evidence, closer to home, of where mandatory vaccination works.

In France, even pre-dating the Covid era, parents are obliged by law to ensure their children are vaccinated [against a number of infections, such as whooping cough, influenza and meningitis C] before they go to school. If they are not, child benefit is not paid.

Does this make France an undemocratic country? Of course, it doesn't. It's a matter of public health, not politics.

On this issue, I have always been towards this end of the spectrum. That comes from having lived and worked through the whooping cough scare, where people thought the whooping cough vaccine killed babies.

I worked through the MMR scandal, instigated by that man Andrew Wakefield, where untold damage was done because of scare-mongering.

It is our job, as doctors, to follow the science, and the science here is sound. I carry a picture of an astonishing Pfizer graph on my phone. I whip it out to show patients.

'Look,' I say, 'this line shows the number of deaths in vaccinated patients, and this one shows it in unvaccinated patients. Your choice could be between life and death.' That graph should be on the front cover of every newspaper in the country.

Of course, alongside the science is my own experience of being in uncharted waters. I never expected to find myself on the frontline of a pandemic.

I was due to retire on March 31 last year, after 42 years working as a GP. I changed my plans because I was needed.

On the day I was due to retire, I started running a Covid hub in the community, assessing and treating patients with suspected Covid, and arranging when they needed to go to hospital.

I still do this. Yesterday I spent the morning treating regular patients, and the afternoon at the Covid hub.

Straddling both worlds — Covid and non-Covid — gives me an unusual perspective, so I do feel I can go in a bit heavier with people when it comes to conversations about whether to have the vaccine.

I can give them my first-hand experiences of having to be the one to tell relatives, as the ambulance is pulling up: 'Look, you cannot go with your father. You must say your goodbyes now.'

That's how it was at the height of the pandemic and it was terrible, something that will never leave me. This was not what I was expecting to tell my grandchildren about my job.

Even though the rates aren't at the levels they were, intensive care units (ICU) across the country (and my son is a registrar in A&E, so I get daily updates) are still full — and full of unvaccinated Covid patients.

At the same time, we are trying to get our healthcare system back to normal, and we cannot. My patients who are waiting for hip replacements and knee operations are even more frail, so that even those who are waiting for quite routine operations will now need an ICU bed.

There is huge frustration in the medical community, trying to hold this together. We've been at it now for 20 months and we are getting very, very, tired. Those on the front line are exhausted.

The latest data suggests that 8 per cent of GPs are going to retire in the next year. Nurses are taking early retirement. The thought of a fourth wave is difficult to swallow.

Sometimes, I say to patients that if they will not be vaccinated for themselves, will they do it for their mothers, grandmothers, for society in general? Let's get society open again, so we can go back to normal.

Why do my unvaccinated patients say they have not had the vaccine? There isn't just one reason, which is part of the problem in getting the message across.

Some of my patients from the Afro-Caribbean community have referenced the Tuskegee scandal, in Mississippi, where African-American men were subjected to a racist, bigoted unethical medical trial which went on for years and years. The stories, and suspicions, have been passed down.

Another group says: 'Goodness me, the fact this vaccine has been developed so quickly is worrying,' and they talk of an experimental vaccine. It is not experimental. Millions and millions of man hours have gone into developing it.

The last group is tricky, those who object to putting something into their body.

You can have the conversations, but it is an uphill battle. My heart always falls when they say: 'Thank you doctor, I'll go home and do my own research.' And they end up on Facebook or on anti-vaxxer sites.

The problem is that this has become a political issue. It was interesting in the U.S. where you could see red states and blue states with different Covid rates depending on political leanings.

Here, it's more difficult to assess, but it would have been great to have had the Prime Minister and Keir Starmer making a joint statement about vaccination — drumming home it was not about politics, but about life and death.

That message is not getting through. I was in Trafalgar Square at the weekend, and I barely saw a mask. People were piling into beer gardens as if this was over.

It is not over, and the clock is ticking.

[whiteroseboy]

Think we all accept that there is still a chance vaccinated people can still pass the virus on however its been proved in many studies that at a much lower transmission rate, plenty on the internet for those that can want to look.

Here is one article
https://www.newscientist.com/article/22 ... accinated/

Add the fact many people are dying every day and those countries such as Austria & Germany with the lowest vaccination rates have some of the highest infection rates. Like all of us I don't have all the answers but believe its not the full story I think population density, healthy lifestyle, hygiene, and dare I say restrictions play their part in infection rate.

From everything I can access getting everyone vaccinated in my opinion is the best way to stop this virus having a stranglehold on the world and drag on for years killing many more. Instead of killing people we need to shorten the life of the virus.

We can argue all we want about democracy and Civil Liberties but I don't hear many shouting for the Civil Liberties of those who are dead and will die in the future.
As for democratic its like saying its ok to kill someone because its a free world and I want to do it, sometimes laws are needed to have a fair democracy.

[Leeds1000]

Vaccinate the elderly and the vulnerable and anyone else who fears the virus and let natural immunity take care of the rest. (what level of natural immunity we are at?) I fall into 2 of the risk categories in that i am overweight and have asthma but would never agree with vaccine mandates. The elderly by now shouldn't need any more convincing by the stats. Protect yourself.

Dr Lloyd says it best. We don't know what variants will be coming? Will the vaccines be of any use if new variants do come?

As a matter of interest has anyone had the old Flu yet this year?

Another conspiracist trying to plug his book? I mean what is going on in this world when you have nut-jobs like this guy trying to tell us the truth? If it was puritan times they would have had him burned at the stake by now in the name of Jesus Christ. How dare he.