Raphinha

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Re: Raphinha

Post by 1964white »

Carrick Dave wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:13 pm Kev, if he signs a new contract that will be a wonderful January transfer window.

I've been saying all the way through that we have enough in the squad to stay up, and I still believe that. Rapha will go in the summer, and hopefully we'll be £100m richer to strengthen and still be a PL team without having paid over the odds in January for Aaronson.

Glass half full.
I still believe we'll stay up Davy.

Had Paddy & Kalvin been available for much of the season, we'd be comfortable by now,
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Cjay »

Carrick Dave wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:13 pm Kev, if he signs a new contract that will be a wonderful January transfer window.

I've been saying all the way through that we have enough in the squad to stay up, and I still believe that. Rapha will go in the summer, and hopefully we'll be £100m richer to strengthen and still be a PL team without having paid over the odds in January for Aaronson.

Glass half full.
Our squad isn't fit and nothing about this season suggests it will be at any point this season.

That bit in bold is exactly the spin the club want.

Sorry mate I strongly disagree.

A contract for Raph so we can get a few more million for him because the club doesn't have the inclination or ambition to simply refuse to sell our best players wont make up for this January.

This is a huge gamble, potentially setting js back years, it took us 16 years to get to this point and we are gambling on so many variables we have no control over to survive.

A miracle improvement in our injury situation

A vast improvement in performances and results which hasn't looked likely since last season.

Less than 3 of the 5 teams below us to improve.

I.think this January has been a disgrace
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Re: Raphinha

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Eireleeds1 wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:23 pm Yes we have enough quality in the squad but only when they’re fit. Several big players who may not figure till March and a bunch of kids making up a subs bench. Hope you’re right mate but personally believe orta needs to pull a rabbit out of his hat in next few days
An experienced PL loan signing would be nice, I can't see it happening, though.
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Re: Raphinha

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1964white wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:24 pm I still believe we'll stay up Davy.

Had Paddy & Kalvin been available for much of the season, we'd be comfortable by now,
But they haven't been and we choose to push and push this squad again and again and again.

This sort of injury crisis has been coming and no excuse for our lack of preparation.

If you push and push and push a group of athletes as Bielsa has people like Dallas and KP and Bamford and Cooper and Klich and Harrison then eventually you will do 2 things.

Performances levels will reach a limit and either plateau or drop and injuries will increase due to the amount of pressure put on the bodies for an extended period of time.

What People keep forgetting when saying how Bielsa and his methods are in no way responsible is that nobody knows that. Absolutely nobody including Bielsa himself or our medical department had any idea what his methods will do to a group of players into season 4.

End of rant . . So confusing why people keep defending this season, it's been a total s**t show and an exercise in negligence, arrogance, naivety and stubbornness
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Carrick Dave »

Cjay wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:25 pm A contract for Raph so we can get a few more million for him because the club doesn't have the inclination or ambition to simply refuse to sell our best players wont make up for this January.
If we get 100m for Raph on the summer because he's extended his contract to put the club in a better position in the market, it will set us up to improve the squad exponentially in years to come.

So I think your vision is skewed on this one.

This season has not been enjoyable, it has been and will continue to be a slog. But what did you expect when we came back up? Next year will likely be the same.
Last edited by Carrick Dave on Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Eireleeds1 »

I agree with so many of the last posts. This window a disgrace. Ortas had god knows how long to find a number 10. Probably three years and what has he come up with? And forget that nonsense they’ll only sign better than we have. We don’t have a 10 at all for god sake
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Re: Raphinha

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Carrick Dave wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:43 pm If we get 100m for Raph on the summer because he's extended his contract to put the club in a better position in the market, it will set us up to improve the squad exponentially in years to come.

So I think your vision is skewed on this one.

This season has not been enjoyable, it has been and will continue to be a slog. But what did you expect when we came back up? Next year will likely be the same.
In theory you could be right but do you trust our recruitment to spend that money well?

£100mil sounds great in theory (and it is only if we get that sort of £90+mil figure would I consider Raph sale a good value).

But the club were more than happy to spend £60mil on JKA, Costa and Cuisance.

Throw in Rodrigo and your around the £90mil mark.

It's a great theory but nothing about our transfer business under Orta gives much faith that it would do as you say.

Didn't expect it to be easy of course but didnt expect the club to be so arrogant and naive.

The 2years transfers in 1 was a massive red flag, you stand still at this level this is what you get and we made a conscious decision to do just that.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Carrick Dave »

Cjay wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:51 pm In theory you could be right but do you trust our recruitment to spend that money well?

£100mil sounds great in theory (and it is only if we get that sort of £90+mil figure would I consider Raph sale a good value).

But the club were more than happy to spend £60mil on JKA, Costa and Cuisance.

Throw in Rodrigo and your around the £90mil mark.

It's a great theory but nothing about our transfer business under Orta gives much faith that it would do as you say.

Didn't expect it to be easy of course but didnt expect the club to be so arrogant and naive.

The 2years transfers in 1 was a massive red flag, you stand still at this level this is what you get and we made a conscious decision to do just that.
One step at a time Cjay.

Get the money in for Rapha based on the extended deal you could see no value in (above), then worry about our recruitment - which hasn't been all bad, by the way - see Raphiniha, Bielsa, Struijk, Gelhardt, etc., etc.

The club will do as it feels right based on the prevailing ownership and management ethos, this year and next, and the year after. To expect them to bow to fan pressure, given the stakes involved, would be arrogant and naive on our part.

We can shout our largely ignorant opinions from the rooftops and repeat the same criticisms till we're blue in the face - that's our right as fans - but it won't make a blind bit of difference in the end.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by HarryofOz »

Carrick Dave wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:13 pm Kev, if he signs a new contract that will be a wonderful January transfer window.

I've been saying all the way through that we have enough in the squad to stay up, and I still believe that. Rapha will go in the summer, and hopefully we'll be £100m richer to strengthen and still be a PL team without having paid over the odds in January for Aaronson.

Glass half full.
Absolutely
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Tyzy »

Daily Mirror reckons West Ham are in for Raph this Jan !
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Re: Raphinha

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:31 pm But they haven't been and we choose to push and push this squad again and again and again.

This sort of injury crisis has been coming and no excuse for our lack of preparation.

If you push and push and push a group of athletes as Bielsa has people like Dallas and KP and Bamford and Cooper and Klich and Harrison then eventually you will do 2 things.

Performances levels will reach a limit and either plateau or drop and injuries will increase due to the amount of pressure put on the bodies for an extended period of time.

What People keep forgetting when saying how Bielsa and his methods are in no way responsible is that nobody knows that. Absolutely nobody including Bielsa himself or our medical department had any idea what his methods will do to a group of players into season 4.

End of rant . . So confusing why people keep defending this season, it's been a total s**t show and an exercise in negligence, arrogance, naivety and stubbornness
I don't know how you can say the injury crisis was coming due to Bielsa's methods and then say in the same argument that nobody including Bielsa himself or our medical department had any idea what his methods will do to a group of players into season 4.

You are saying that it is due to Bielsa but then saying nobody can know how the effect of Bielsa's level of intense training will be due to no player having gone through it before.

I agree that some players won't be able to hack the intensity of it, maybe that's why Alioski left or maybe he wanted a guaranteed spot.

Some players have thrived though and continue to get better, allowing for dips of form allong the way such as we have seen with Dallas and Harrison. Yes you can argue that players will reach a level where they can't improve but we have seen imporvement where none of us expected there to be with so many players under Bielsa and for some the improvement will continue. I would say Dallas continues to improve despite having been a regular starter now for 3 consecutive seasons (after being out most of the year prior to that so it seems a previously weak body can become tougher).

Bamford went from being out for nearly a full season to being near ever present for 2 seasons so there was no real reason to expect the injury plagued season for him. Cooper, KP and Llorente have always missed a few matches per season so no real change for them. Klich's ever present run was amazing but that takes its toll on any player no matter who the play for, especially given how many matches he has also played for Poland. So I think most clubs would expect a few injuries but we have had them all at once. If the injuries had been spread over the season then we'd likely be doing better.

I just can't see how you can argue that our squad isn't strong enough then at the same time not say the injuries are a key part to why we have struggled this season. That just doesn't stack up. I agree we don't have adequate back up for Bamford and Phillips yet you then suggest that injuries have made no difference, well clearly they have as I am sure we'd be doing better with Bamford and KP in the team.

Maybe we should have strengthened the squad further but equally there isn't an infinite amount of money that the club has. Fees of £10m are bandied about like they are nothing. It isn't realistic.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by SG90 »

Tyzy wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:19 pm Daily Mirror reckons West Ham are in for Raph this Jan !
They can't afford him.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Cjay »

weasel wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:21 pm I don't know how you can say the injury crisis was coming due to Bielsa's methods and then say in the same argument that nobody including Bielsa himself or our medical department had any idea what his methods will do to a group of players into season 4.

You are saying that it is due to Bielsa but then saying nobody can know how the effect of Bielsa's level of intense training will be due to no player having gone through it before.

It's true though, nobody had any idea what another season of MB's intense style would do to the players. Now we are seeing a massive drop off in form and injuries like we have never known and many of them are hamstring and hip injuries which are symptomatic of overload. I am no medical professional but I've spent enough time working out to know that.

I agree that some players won't be able to hack the intensity of it, maybe that's why Alioski left or maybe he wanted a guaranteed spot.

Ali I suspect went for the money.

Some players have thrived though and continue to get better, allowing for dips of form allong the way such as we have seen with Dallas and Harrison. Yes you can argue that players will reach a level where they can't improve but we have seen imporvement where none of us expected there to be with so many players under Bielsa and for some the improvement will continue. I would say Dallas continues to improve despite having been a regular starter now for 3 consecutive seasons (after being out most of the year prior to that so it seems a previously weak body can become tougher).

I don't think that is the case, I think Dallas levels have dropped significantly this season and that is reflected in the motm thread where he has barely featured and I don't think he has any top 3s or atleast he certainly didn't last time I looked. He has certainly given his all to the cause and at nearly 31 you would expect a drop off tbf to him.

Harrison tbh I've never hugely rated, his end product has never been that good. I think he more than most massively benefits from the system and the sheer volume of opportunities to get forward he gets. Put him in a less attacking side he would struggle to get 5 goal contributions. Not to say I don't appreciate the contributionhe has made and he has been a true professional but I think no fans benefited him more than most and last when fans have been present his goal contributions have been well down on comparativewingers.



Bamford went from being out for nearly a full season to being near ever present for 2 seasons so there was no real reason to expect the injury plagued season for him. Cooper, KP and Llorente have always missed a few matches per season so no real change for them. Klich's ever present run was amazing but that takes its toll on any player no matter who the play for, especially given how many matches he has also played for Poland. So I think most clubs would expect a few injuries but we have had them all at once. If the injuries had been spread over the season then we'd likely be doing better.

Regarding Bamford I would say the total opposite. Because of the sheer amount of running he is asked to do and the sheer amount off matches he played in those seasons you mentioned and also Because he gave an interview last season fully admitting to playing injured (something I am massively against and something Bielsa has admitted doing only a few weeks ago regarding Dallas and Ayling I think it was) the club should expect him to break down. He is not a robot and it was inevitable eventually.
Cooper, KP and Llorente as you say do have a bit of an injury prone reputation. We broke Klich, and given how much we neglected midfield that is a huge part of my frustration. Klich gave interviews admitting to being absolutely exhausted, the man needed a significant rest or to be let go as he apparently requested.


We have suffered bad injury problems every year under Bielsa, every year, not as bad as this year but certainly one of thenworst in the league and last season was no difference. Logic tells you a small squad, limited rotation an intense style, the most intense style, that will eventually catch up with players. Plenty of people ex player of Biesla have admitted to being exhausted by his methods. Our own players have said it, Bamford, Klich, Harrison and players who adore him like Ander Herrera. Our fans get upset if anyone suggests burnout but the increased risk of injuries must be fairly undeniable even for the most ardent supporters?

I just can't see how you can argue that our squad isn't strong enough then at the same time not say the injuries are a key part to why we have struggled this season. That just doesn't stack up. I agree we don't have adequate back up for Bamford and Phillips yet you then suggest that injuries have made no difference, well clearly they have as I am sure we'd be doing better with Bamford and KP in the team.

I've never felt this season our squad was strong enough tbf to me mate. I was very adamant about that in the summer when I made the thread about needing a massive overhaul. I said the same in every pre season thread to. I never believed we had the quality or the depth fully fit or not. If we survived I thought it would be inspite of ourselves (3 worse teams). I made the point in the thread about 3-4 year cycles also when discussing pressing teams remember? I've been deeply concerned all season and pre season so I am atleast consistent :lol: I understand you saying how can I say injuries haven't made a difference but my response is that I expect that those who have been missing would have had a drop off in form same as everyone else. KP hasn't been firing on all cylinders when fit, neither had Ayling, Rodrigo, Cooper etc. It isn't like we haven't had these players fit at points and none of them have hit anything like the heights of last season. So thats why.

Maybe we should have strengthened the squad further but equally there isn't an infinite amount of money that the club has. Fees of £10m are bandied about like they are nothing. It isn't realistic.

The club never intended on though, we know that from Kinnear and his 2 years transfer rubbish. Of course there isn't unlimited funds but the fact the club never really intended on strengthening irks me. If Alioski hadn't left and Valencia hadn't taken Costa on loan would we have even signed anyone?
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Overman »

Carrick Dave wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:43 pm If we get 100m for Raph on the summer because he's extended his contract to put the club in a better position in the market, it will set us up to improve the squad exponentially in years to come.

So I think your vision is skewed on this one.

This season has not been enjoyable, it has been and will continue to be a slog. But what did you expect when we came back up? Next year will likely be the same.
100 mil for Rapha, you've got to be joking. We'll be fortunate to get half that, particularly with our business sense.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Clacton White »

Cjay wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:25 pm Our squad isn't fit and nothing about this season suggests it will be at any point this season.

That bit in bold is exactly the spin the club want.

Sorry mate I strongly disagree.

A contract for Raph so we can get a few more million for him because the club doesn't have the inclination or ambition to simply refuse to sell our best players wont make up for this January.

This is a huge gamble, potentially setting js back years, it took us 16 years to get to this point and we are gambling on so many variables we have no control over to survive.

A miracle improvement in our injury situation

A vast improvement in performances and results which hasn't looked likely since last season.

Less than 3 of the 5 teams below us to improve.

I.think this January has been a disgrace
Completely agree with last comment .Also why would Raph want to stay somewhere showing a complete lack of ambition .Does little to persuade him to sign .
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Re: Raphinha

Post by Mountain »

Cjay wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 10:31 pm End of rant . . So confusing why people keep defending this season, it's been a total s**t show and an exercise in negligence, arrogance, naivety and stubbornness
Funny how people see things differently.

I'd say it's possibly the 2nd best season in the past 18. Because I still think being lower mid table in the top flight is a better achievement than being anywhere in the lower divisions.

I'm glad I wasn't on this site before Bielsa took over. If some posters are furious at us struggling in the top flight with our 3rd best manager ever dealing with 10 or 12 injuries, they must have been fit to kill when fully fit squads were just collecting their wages in the lower tiers under what, 15 successive managers?

As for those injuries, as I have no qualifications that come close to matching the Leeds medical staff. To criticise methods that teams of experts with all their qualifications and expertise analyse for hundreds of hours a week is idle speculation.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by rondownunder »

Raph, KP and Meslier may all be sold in the summer, largely for money, but also because the players' ambitions to play CL. We will follow Villa as they have done by selling Grealish.
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Re: Raphinha

Post by huishhammer »

Tyzy wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:19 pm Daily Mirror reckons West Ham are in for Raph this Jan !
I saw that.

And it's not even April 1st yet.

:lol:
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Re: Raphinha

Post by 1964white »

Tyzy wrote: Fri Jan 28, 2022 11:19 pm Daily Mirror reckons West Ham are in for Raph this Jan !
I wondered where this misinformation came from :roll:
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Re: Raphinha

Post by 1964white »

huishhammer wrote: Sat Jan 29, 2022 8:10 am I saw that.

And it's not even April 1st yet.

:lol:
Even a West Ham fans are making a joke of this nonsense.

Nice one Huish :tup:
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