Tough decisions or adapt?

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Cjay
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Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by Cjay » Fri May 22, 2020 4:18 pm

Been thinking.

Say we do get promoted whatever way it happens.

Will we have to adapt the style? After all high pressing, high possession attacking Wolves found that they had to become a more counter attacking side in the Premier league.

Norwich and Villa have tried to play the same way in the Premier league as they did in the Championship and are both in danger of going down.

So would we have to adapt?

Then again we played 8th placed Arsenal off the pitch for 45 minutes and should have been well in front (but werent).

So is it a case of tough decisions would need to be made as well as a tweak in system?

Luke Ayling, Stuart Dallas and Gianni Alioski at full back. All have earned praise this season at times but truthfully its rarely been for defending. I wouldn't say any of them are particularly brilliant defenders.

If we adapt the system would we need to change full backs as the adaptation would possibly lead to them having to do far more defending then they are used to and with VAR an Ayling flop to cover for his mistake may not wash ?

Despite the improvement of Cooper he is prone to mistakes and a less offensive system may increase those?

Additionally (i know KP is a god to some) but i still feel that when pressed he looks very uncomfortable, he has a niche position atm, very much protected by the system, a tweak may impact him?

And further forward, any tweak in system to make us a bit more defensive and less open would impact the attacking players.

Klich, Costa, Hernandez, Harrison and Bamford are extremely wasteful with the final shot or the final pass.

We are ok in the Championship because we create 15, 20, 30 good situations a game and law of averages goes in our favour more often then not.

But in the Prem we may get 3 good situations a game with a system tweak.

With the best will in the world nothing about our current midfield and attacking players suggests we would score anywhere near enough goals if that happened.

Ive started ro ramble :lol:

My questions are

1) Assuming we get promoted,i think we agree that we are greater then the sum of our parts. However in the Prem would we need to tweak the system? We are extremely open at times and frankly against better sides we would probably get our fair few spankings.

2) if we do adapt would the current players suffer? After all any tweak in system may greater expose the deficiencies of the individuals that are largely protected by the current system.

3) Whether we adapt or not what tough decisions would you make player wise?
Last edited by Cjay on Fri May 22, 2020 8:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by Ellandback1 » Fri May 22, 2020 6:22 pm

Cjay wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:18 pm
Been thinking.

Say we do get promoted whatever way it happens.

Will we have to adapt the style? After all high pressing, high possession attacking Wolves found that they had to become a more counter attacking side in the Premier league.

Norwich and Villa have tried to play the same way in the Premier league as they did in the Championship and are both in danger of going down.

So would we have to adapt?

Then again we played 8th placed Arsenal off the pitch for 45 minutes and should have been well in front (but werent).

So is it a case of tough decisions would need to be made as well as a tweak in system?

Luke Ayling, Stuart Dallas and Gianni Alioski at full back. All have earned praise this season at times but truthfully its rarely been for defending. I wouldn't say any of them are particularly brilliant defenders.

If we adapt the system would we need to change full backs as the adaptation would possibly lead to them having to do far more defending then they are used to and with VAR an Ayling flop to cover for his mistake may not wash ?

Despite the improvement of Cooper he is prone to mistakes and a less offensive system may increase those?

Additionally (i know KP is a god to some) but i still feel that when pressed he looks very uncomfortable, he has a niche position atm, very much protected by the system, a tweak may impact him?

And further forward, any tweak in system to make us a bit more defensive and less open would impact the attacking players.

Klich, Costa, Hernandez, Harrison and Bamford are extremely wasteful with the final shot or the final pass.

We are ok in the Championship because we create 15, 20, 30 good situations a game and law of averages goes in our favour more often then not.

But in the Prem we may get 3 good situations a game with a system tweak.

With the best will in the world nothing about our current midfield and attacking players suggests we would score anywhere near enough goals if that happened.

Ive started ro ramble :lol:

My questions are

1) Assuming we get promoted,i think we agree that we are greater then the some of our parts. However in the Prem would we need to tweak the system? We are extremely open at times and frankly against better sides we would probably get our fair few spankings.

2) if we do adapt would the current players suffer? After all any tweak in system may greater expose the deficiencies of the individuals that are largely protected by the current system.

3) Whether we adapt or not what tough decisions would you make player wise?
We have an agreement with Manchester City that if we go up, we will sign Yan Couto on loan. He's only 17, but dubbed the next Dani Alves. Citeh nabbed him under Barca's noses... Where does this put Ayling. He's recently signed a four year extension on 20k a week, along with Dallas and Cooper

Only concern about Couto is he is only 5ft 6. It's been a while since we've had an exciting South American... Who here, would not want a Brazilian?

Regarding changing the system. I'm not sure that Bielsa is capable of changing formation

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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by weasel » Fri May 22, 2020 6:28 pm

Cjay wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 4:18 pm
My questions are

1) Assuming we get promoted,i think we agree that we are greater then the some of our parts. However in the Prem would we need to tweak the system? We are extremely open at times and frankly against better sides we would probably get our fair few spankings.

2) if we do adapt would the current players suffer? After all any tweak in system may greater expose the deficiencies of the individuals that are largely protected by the current system.

3) Whether we adapt or not what tough decisions would you make player wise?
1) I wouldn't tweak it much. The key is to improve the players in the system. Sometimes it will be the player improving or sometimes a better player is bought in, or steps up from the academy. Also 1 good player bought can make players around them better, an example being Strachan who was the leader of our midfield and no doubt helped the young Batty and Speed and before that he helped Vinnie Jones by basically telling Vinnie to do the things he was good at and not worry about trying to be something else. The examples of Norwich and Villa hold little weight for me as Norwich were more of a counter attacking side and relied on Pukka having a career year as well as a few other players chipping in. A lot of fans raved about Norwich when they beat us but they had a lot of good fortune on that day and in my opinion a lot of good fortune that season with countless late goals in matches where they weren't particularly the better team. Villa put a good run together at the right time but for most of last season were bang average. No surprise to see both Norwich and Villa struggling. The better example for me is Sheffield Utd who have been playing a certain way since Chris Wilder took over. The players are used to the system and have improved season upon season. Wilder has seen some players improve and in some cases signed better players. This is far more like what we are doing as Bielsa has improved players who most of us would have written off (akin to Wilder making good players out league 1 players and cast offs) and then bought in or loaned players to improve the positions where we needed strengthening.

2) Largely becomes irrelevant as I would tweak it too much. All systems evolve with a little tweak here and there so the players should be able to adapt comfortably enough - it isn't like the system today is exactly the same as the system Bielsa implemented at the start of last season.

3) There won't be many changes made. Bielsa doesn't seem to work that way. He inherited a squad that had been written off and improved them rather than bringing in a load of new players. He seems to like to improve players who want to improve rather than simply going down the Man City route of buying players who tick all the boxes. My feeling would be 3 or 4 new faces In addition to hopefully converting the loans to permanent deals in the case of Harrison, White, Costa, Augustin and Messlier. I doubt the new players would go straight into the team anyway, it isn't the Bielsa way, unless it was a case of them needing to like White did this season.
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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by danhirons » Fri May 22, 2020 6:44 pm

weasel wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:28 pm
1) I wouldn't tweak it much. The key is to improve the players in the system. Sometimes it will be the player improving or sometimes a better player is bought in, or steps up from the academy. Also 1 good player bought can make players around them better, an example being Strachan who was the leader of our midfield and no doubt helped the young Batty and Speed and before that he helped Vinnie Jones by basically telling Vinnie to do the things he was good at and not worry about trying to be something else. The examples of Norwich and Villa hold little weight for me as Norwich were more of a counter attacking side and relied on Pukka having a career year as well as a few other players chipping in. A lot of fans raved about Norwich when they beat us but they had a lot of good fortune on that day and in my opinion a lot of good fortune that season with countless late goals in matches where they weren't particularly the better team. Villa put a good run together at the right time but for most of last season were bang average. No surprise to see both Norwich and Villa struggling. The better example for me is Sheffield Utd who have been playing a certain way since Chris Wilder took over. The players are used to the system and have improved season upon season. Wilder has seen some players improve and in some cases signed better players. This is far more like what we are doing as Bielsa has improved players who most of us would have written off (akin to Wilder making good players out league 1 players and cast offs) and then bought in or loaned players to improve the positions where we needed strengthening.

2) Largely becomes irrelevant as I would tweak it too much. All systems evolve with a little tweak here and there so the players should be able to adapt comfortably enough - it isn't like the system today is exactly the same as the system Bielsa implemented at the start of last season.

3) There won't be many changes made. Bielsa doesn't seem to work that way. He inherited a squad that had been written off and improved them rather than bringing in a load of new players. He seems to like to improve players who want to improve rather than simply going down the Man City route of buying players who tick all the boxes. My feeling would be 3 or 4 new faces In addition to hopefully converting the loans to permanent deals in the case of Harrison, White, Costa, Augustin and Messlier. I doubt the new players would go straight into the team anyway, it isn't the Bielsa way, unless it was a case of them needing to like White did this season.
Just the thought of us relying on the likes of harrison in the prem sends shudders down my spine! Just looked and we really need to do better than someone getting 1 goal, 2 assists in their last 17 games. Made big improvements this year but I'd only take him (personally) on a free/nominal fee.

I think really the whole front line needs improvement (lw, st, rw).

Kalvin, klich, hernandez is a strong cm - maybe with one more addition.

Need a new left back, perhaps a new cb (2 if we can't sign white)

And 100 per cent a new keeper!

Guess it depends who's available though - wouldn't want to buy unless they're clearly an improvement on what we've got

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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by 1964white » Sat May 23, 2020 7:40 am

We will adapt although Bielsa won't change our style of play, tough decisions will be taken to assure our progress in the premiership.

I'd imagine at least three to four quality signings coming in to boost our squad

We'll hold our own in the premiership

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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by HarryofOz » Sat May 23, 2020 7:43 am

I would say that most of our first choice players could cope with the Premier League even if it has to be as squad players rather than regular first 11 starters.

But we definitely need to strengthen the team to cope with the jump in class.

When we were last promoted - in the days when there wasn't such a gulf in resources between the top flight and the rest - we added Lukic, Dorigo, McAlliter and Wallace to our promoted squad. Favourites in the second Division team like Vinnie Jones, found they were no longer going to be in the starting side. And I think our team then, was probably stronger than our current team. We also had the likes of Batty and Speed emerging. Not sure if any of our current players are in that class.

So I say we probably need to bring in a couple of players in each of the 'areas' - defence, midfield and up-front to ensure that we are competitive in the Premier League.
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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by Ratscoot » Sat May 23, 2020 8:53 am

HarryofOz wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:43 am
I would say that most of our first choice players could cope with the Premier League even if it has to be as squad players rather than regular first 11 starters.

But we definitely need to strengthen the team to cope with the jump in class.

When we were last promoted - in the days when there wasn't such a gulf in resources between the top flight and the rest - we added Lukic, Dorigo, McAlliter and Wallace to our promoted squad. Favourites in the second Division team like Vinnie Jones, found they were no longer going to be in the starting side. And I think our team then, was probably stronger than our current team. We also had the likes of Batty and Speed emerging. Not sure if any of our current players are in that class.

So I say we probably need to bring in a couple of players in each of the 'areas' - defence, midfield and up-front to ensure that we are competitive in the Premier League.
Ditto :tup:
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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by 1964white » Sat May 23, 2020 9:29 am

HarryofOz wrote:
Sat May 23, 2020 7:43 am
And I think our team then, was probably stronger than our current team. We also had the likes of Batty and Speed emerging. Not sure if any of our current players are in that class.
I doubt they are Harry as I think they would have made an impact in our championship team if they were half as good as Batty & Speed. Our youngsters would have to make significant improvement to step into our premiership line-up

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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by BGwhite » Sat May 23, 2020 9:41 am

I think we need backup & replacement in most areas but if we had some luck staying injury free I can see us doing ok. We are definitely a match for at least the bottom 3rd of the prem .

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Re: Tough decisions or adapt?

Post by Cjay » Sat May 23, 2020 3:16 pm

weasel wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 6:28 pm
1) I wouldn't tweak it much. The key is to improve the players in the system. Sometimes it will be the player improving or sometimes a better player is bought in, or steps up from the academy. Also 1 good player bought can make players around them better, an example being Strachan who was the leader of our midfield and no doubt helped the young Batty and Speed and before that he helped Vinnie Jones by basically telling Vinnie to do the things he was good at and not worry about trying to be something else. The examples of Norwich and Villa hold little weight for me as Norwich were more of a counter attacking side and relied on Pukka having a career year as well as a few other players chipping in. A lot of fans raved about Norwich when they beat us but they had a lot of good fortune on that day and in my opinion a lot of good fortune that season with countless late goals in matches where they weren't particularly the better team. Villa put a good run together at the right time but for most of last season were bang average. No surprise to see both Norwich and Villa struggling. The better example for me is Sheffield Utd who have been playing a certain way since Chris Wilder took over. The players are used to the system and have improved season upon season. Wilder has seen some players improve and in some cases signed better players. This is far more like what we are doing as Bielsa has improved players who most of us would have written off (akin to Wilder making good players out league 1 players and cast offs) and then bought in or loaned players to improve the positions where we needed strengthening.

2) Largely becomes irrelevant as I would tweak it too much. All systems evolve with a little tweak here and there so the players should be able to adapt comfortably enough - it isn't like the system today is exactly the same as the system Bielsa implemented at the start of last season.

3) There won't be many changes made. Bielsa doesn't seem to work that way. He inherited a squad that had been written off and improved them rather than bringing in a load of new players. He seems to like to improve players who want to improve rather than simply going down the Man City route of buying players who tick all the boxes. My feeling would be 3 or 4 new faces In addition to hopefully converting the loans to permanent deals in the case of Harrison, White, Costa, Augustin and Messlier. I doubt the new players would go straight into the team anyway, it isn't the Bielsa way, unless it was a case of them needing to like White did this season.
You are definitely remembering Norwich wrong tbf to them. They were very similar to us (Farke is another of those German coaches like Klopp after all). Passing side through the 3rds, had well over 50% possession on average and even now are top 10 possession wise in the Prem.

They were very clinical though (far exceeding there xG unlike us and Blades who were far below ours).

I understand the "improve the players in the system" but how much more improvement do players like Ayling, Cooper, Dallas etc have in them? They arent young men anymore after all?

Eventually limits are reached.

Bielsa has also very openly said he would accept new players "better then we have" so if we could afford that im not to sure he would be to sentimental, doesnt strike me as the type.

He would rather work with what he has but only if not offered better?

Think MB is a bit more flexible then he gets credit for, last season we seemed a bit more gung ho but this season we do seem more willing to drop off and go man for man in our own half and look for breaks.

Thats good imo.

Its hard to know what to expect next season given we dont know how the market will be impacted, who will own us etc.

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