Marcelo Bielsa.

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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Kennyb41 »

I wonder how many here still think Bert a former Argentine International footballer of quality signed Firpo rather than the true fact that a man with a masters in clowning did and whom has never kicked a football in his life.

Words fail me.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Mountain »

I did see a post recently where someone claimed that there were no Bielsa haters here. I mean...you have to laugh.

There were posts like "sack the c**t", "sack fatboy", references to Argies and the Falklands, a post that pretty much said "I hate him and I've hated him since the Villa game" and so on.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by weasel »

Cjay wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:26 am Not wanting to rehash old ground.

The Bielsa we will create more chances than you falls down as Weasel says if you don't take a High proportion of your chances.

We were never prolific under Bielsa and missed tons of chances becausethe players weren't good enough. A large part of that was because under Bielsa we prioritised running and off the ball stats over attacking stats in attacking players (see James, Rodrigo etc).

You can't have it both ways.

You can't buy players in attacking positions because they run a lot when it's well know the end product lacks (as was well known with the aforementioned pair) and then bemoan the amount of missed chances.

Maybe we felt that law of averages would go in our favour but fundamentally a quality finisher will score more of his 1 of 2 chances than a Dan James type will of his 1 of 3.

That imo was the flaw.

The tactical plan fundamentally fell down because of the type if players used to carry it out.

We needed runners and Bielsa wanted runners because of his style but that meant we sacrificed end product which meant we missed more chances which eventually meant we lost more games anyway.

What imo should have happened is we needed to step away from the headless chicken signings and signed more quality and then trained them into runners.

You can't teach end product.

You can improve fitness.

Anyhow that was my last bit on the subject until MB gets linked to a new job.

Wonder where he will go?

International?
Back to Newells?
Great points as always. I suppose the way Bielsa saw it to some degree was that if you have a player who works hard and keeps doing the things Bielsa wants and keeps getting himself into the positions to score than at some point they will get more used to being in that position and start scoring more. If you took say a more natural finisher, say a Harry Kane, but because he didn't fit the system very well he got 2 chances per game and scored 1 then it is the same as using the less natural finisher that gets into the position to score 4 times in a game and scores 1 goal. They both end up scoring the same amount of goals per game. Is Harry Kane going to get better or is the 1 in 4 going to get better? Also is Harry Kane going to do as much running to help the pressig game? A bit like how Ronaldo at MU scores goals but didn't fit into a pressing style.

I always felt with a player like Dan James the thought process was never about him being a striker but that Bielsa was taking the opportunity, whilst Bamford was out injured, to put James into a position where he would be more likely to have shooting opportunities. This would help in his developement so that when he switched to his proper role he would be more used to having shots so if he found himself in that position he would be more likely to score - it also evolved his understanding of how the striker would like to receive the ball which would then aid James in terms of knowing where to play the ball to the striker. I wonder if at times Bielsa almost saw the evolvement of one player as being more important than the short term results of the team similar in how he stuck with Bamford and made him into a much better player rather than using Nketiah more who may have scored more goals and given us better short term results (although the use of Bamford over Nketiah also goes back to my earlier example about Kane).
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Kennyb41 »

Yeah he worked wonders on PB, PBs finishing at times can be sublime but he also wastes an absolute load of gilt edge chances, the managers choice of style and formation worked wonders at creating chances, he can't score the goals for them (if only he could)

Jeez imagine Bert with players like Messi at his disposal, mouthwatering.

PS
Oerman can you please put me back on ignore, i don't like the thought of you reading my excellent footy stuff and you regurgitating it as your own like you used to do on some other shyte site, thanks.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Byebyegeegee »

Mountain wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:21 am I did see a post recently where someone claimed that there were no Bielsa haters here. I mean...you have to laugh.

There were posts like "sack the c**t", "sack fatboy", references to Argies and the Falklands, a post that pretty much said "I hate him and I've hated him since the Villa game" and so on.
Erm yes, that would have been me and I’m still waiting for someone to reference exactly where any poster has specifically said they hate Bielsa! They may have been critical of his tactics, his player choices etc. they may even have wanted him to be sacked in the final analysis because of the seemingly backward steps we had taken last season (I, personally, would have liked him to have seen the season out) but that is not the same thing as hatred. Criticism or disapproval is not hate!
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Mountain »

Mountain wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 9:21 am a post that pretty much said "I hate him and I've hated him since the Villa game"...
Byebyegeegee wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:53 pm Erm yes, that would have been me and I’m still waiting for someone to reference exactly where any poster has specifically said they hate Bielsa!
Erm.

How does one even answer that.

I said I hated him but that does not mean I hated him. Point out where it says I hated him
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Byebyegeegee »

Mountain wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:05 pm Erm.

How does one even answer that.

I said I hated him but that does not mean I hated him. Point out where it says I hated him
So you’ve cited (true or not) one anonymous comment from an anonymous thread, possibly meant in jest or at least tongue in cheek, and that supports your assertion of “Bielsa haters on here” does it? Ok fair enough! Do you honestly think that there are truly any posters on this forum, indeed Leeds fans in general that actually hate Bielsa? There are lots of posters on here who were critical of Bielsa’s handling of the team this season, with good reason but I repeat criticism doesn’t equal hate.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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Byebyegeegee wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:53 pm So you’ve cited (true or not) one anonymous comment from an anonymous thread, possibly meant in jest or at least tongue in cheek, and that supports your assertion of “Bielsa haters on here” does it? Ok fair enough! Do you honestly think that there are truly any posters on this forum, indeed Leeds fans in general that actually hate Bielsa? There are lots of posters on here who were critical of Bielsa’s handling of the team this season, with good reason but I repeat criticism doesn’t equal hate.
I recall one who said he didn't like him because of his Nationality.

Does that count?
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Byebyegeegee »

Irish Ian wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:25 pm I recall one who said he didn't like him because of his Nationality.

Does that count?
Of course Ian. When in doubt the racist card can always be played!
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Cjay »

weasel wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 11:16 am Great points as always. I suppose the way Bielsa saw it to some degree was that if you have a player who works hard and keeps doing the things Bielsa wants and keeps getting himself into the positions to score than at some point they will get more used to being in that position and start scoring more. If you took say a more natural finisher, say a Harry Kane, but because he didn't fit the system very well he got 2 chances per game and scored 1 then it is the same as using the less natural finisher that gets into the position to score 4 times in a game and scores 1 goal. They both end up scoring the same amount of goals per game. Is Harry Kane going to get better or is the 1 in 4 going to get better? Also is Harry Kane going to do as much running to help the pressig game? A bit like how Ronaldo at MU scores goals but didn't fit into a pressing style.

I always felt with a player like Dan James the thought process was never about him being a striker but that Bielsa was taking the opportunity, whilst Bamford was out injured, to put James into a position where he would be more likely to have shooting opportunities. This would help in his developement so that when he switched to his proper role he would be more used to having shots so if he found himself in that position he would be more likely to score - it also evolved his understanding of how the striker would like to receive the ball which would then aid James in terms of knowing where to play the ball to the striker. I wonder if at times Bielsa almost saw the evolvement of one player as being more important than the short term results of the team similar in how he stuck with Bamford and made him into a much better player rather than using Nketiah more who may have scored more goals and given us better short term results (although the use of Bamford over Nketiah also goes back to my earlier example about Kane).
Always think back to what Thierry Henry said Pep Guardiola said to him.

"My job is to take you up to the last 3rd, yours is to finish it".

Obviously Pep had Henry, Messi and Co which is a bit different to James and Bamford and Co :lol:

Or super sub Tyler Roberts.

And Bielsa had a belief in repetition, repetition, repetition.

Lots of running and the same patterns of play breeding familiarity.

But ultimately you need more at Premier League level.

You need talent you need quality and that was our major issue.

Eventually the repetition and running wasn't enough but because we had still this must sign runners attitude we didn't have anything else.

If we had signed say Noa Lang over Dan James last summer, Marc Cucurella over Junior Firpo, a couple of quality on the ball midfielders I think Bielsa would still be here.

But Lang and Cucurella whilst widely regarded as much more gifted than James and Firpo they didn't have the running stats.

That was our issue in the end imo
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Mountain »

Byebyegeegee wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 2:53 pm So you’ve cited (true or not) one anonymous comment from an anonymous thread, possibly meant in jest or at least tongue in cheek, and that supports your assertion of “Bielsa haters on here” does it?
When someone says "I hate him" the claim that no one said they hated him is simply wrong.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Kennyb41 »

Cjay wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:54 pm Always think back to what Thierry Henry said Pep Guardiola said to him.

"My job is to take you up to the last 3rd, yours is to finish it".

Obviously Pep had Henry, Messi and Co which is a bit different to James and Bamford and Co :lol:

Or super sub Tyler Roberts.

And Bielsa had a belief in repetition, repetition, repetition.

Lots of running and the same patterns of play breeding familiarity.

But ultimately you need more at Premier League level.

You need talent you need quality and that was our major issue.

Eventually the repetition and running wasn't enough but because we had still this must sign runners attitude we didn't have anything else.

If we had signed say Noa Lang over Dan James last summer, Marc Cucurella over Junior Firpo, a couple of quality on the ball midfielders I think Bielsa would still be here.

But Lang and Cucurella whilst widely regarded as much more gifted than James and Firpo they didn't have the running stats.

That was our issue in the end imo
Oh Jeez Cjay, YOU'RE NEARLY THERE ! YOU'RE ON YOUR WAY TO UNDERSTANDING 'IT' !

You just need a little nudge, keep going, i'll give you a clue : Why is Lulaku on his way back out of Chelsea?
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Byebyegeegee »

Mountain wrote: Wed Jun 29, 2022 3:58 pm When someone says "I hate him" the claim that no one said they hated him is simply wrong.
Oh, so we’ve established, maybe, maybe not, that there is one anonymous poster who may have used the actual word “hate” once, we don’t know the context, tongue in cheek, in jest, who knows?

But what about all the others on this forum. You always blithely use the plural and usually the word “all” which gives the impression that there are a lot of “Bielsa haters” on here. I think what you really mean are posters who were “critical of Bielsa’s management” (with good reason last season, in my opinion) but feel the need to exaggerate and thereby antagonise by calling us what we certainly are not.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Mountain »

Byebyegeegee wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 8:05 am Oh, so we’ve established, maybe, maybe not, that there is one anonymous poster who may have used the actual word “hate” once, we don’t know the context, tongue in cheek, in jest, who knows?

But what about all the others on this forum. You always blithely use the plural and usually the word “all” which gives the impression that there are a lot of “Bielsa haters” on here. I think what you really mean are posters who were “critical of Bielsa’s management” (with good reason last season, in my opinion) but feel the need to exaggerate and thereby antagonise by calling us what we certainly are not.
First, every single poster is anonymous. Are you saying your own posts are disingenuous because of this?

Second, the claim was that no posters hated Bielsa, I said they did, I cited instances I remembered. Including one about hating him since Ville. The full sentence was...

To be fair old pal, I did, I hated him from the very moment he allowed villa to score a goal un-apposed against my beloved Leeds United Football Club, also my dislike for Argies since the falklands war, I'm also very patriotic.

And the poster is entitled to hate Bielsa. But let's not try and say s/he didn't post what s/he posted. I also referred to other examples, like calling him a "c**t".

You can cling to the claim that there was no hatred for Bielsa here. That is your prerogative. But there patently was.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Cjay »

That ends any chance of a romantic Bilbao return for Bielsa.

Will watch Valverde with interest since I picked him as my choice to replace MB here.

Legendary figure at Bilbao tbf, they were unlikely to pick Bielsa over him.

Played for them for 6 years, started his coaching career in the Bilbao youth teams. Finished 5th in his first season at Bilbao in his first spell then 9th.

Went back 10 years later finished 4th (highest finish in 16 years) and got into Champions League.

Won a trophy for the first time since the 80s.

And since he left Bilbao have only finished as high as 7th once which was the lowest Valverde managed.

Good coach and popular.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Byebyegeegee »

Ok Mountain we’ll leave it there then. You stick to your supposition that there are many rabid Bielsa haters on this forum if you wish. I’ll stick to mine, that those you unkindly refer to as Bielsa haters are merely posters who have been critical of or unhappy with his team management last season.

I think you, and a few others, are trying to equate being critical of someone with hating that someone, nothing could be further from the truth. For example I am occasionally critical of my son or my daughter but that doesn’t automatically mean I hate them, quite the opposite in fact.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Mountain »

Byebyegeegee wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:48 pm I think you, and a few others, are trying to equate being critical of someone with hating that someone, nothing could be further from the truth. For example I am occasionally critical of my son or my daughter but that doesn’t automatically mean I hate them, quite the opposite in fact.
Again, you are wrong.

I am saying that when someone says they hate Bielsa, it's fair to say they hate Bielsa.

Do you tell your son and daughter you hate them to imply mere criticism?
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Irish Ian »

Image


I got this for my office.

I can sit under his benevolent gaze.
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'We can wait for the next game with serenity' Marcelo Bielsa

'Would he kill his granny to win a match?' Bobby Collins

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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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Irish Ian wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:29 pm Image


I got this for my office.

I can sit under his benevolent gaze.
Is that for real, Ian?

If so, where did you purchase it from?
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by Irish Ian »

1964white wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 3:33 pm Is that for real, Ian?

If so, where did you purchase it from?
For real Leon.
I love it.
It is made to order here:
https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/8548356 ... ome_feat_4
'We can wait for the next game with serenity' Marcelo Bielsa

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