Marcelo Bielsa

[CanuckMightyWhite]

Importance of fans standing by you through difficult spell?

Very important. There's a phrase that says a club needs to be loved to win, not they are loved because they won. All of the teams are loved because they won. Very important to be loved to be able to win. That demands loyalty and unconditionality throughout the games. From that sense, the fans of Leeds showed massive generosity.

This is why he loves it here, and we need to continue giving our full love and commitment to him for as long as he is physically able to coach. Imperative we shower him so much more love so that this is his final Managing gig and it continues for another decade.

[1964white]

Surely we need a new striker bringing in this window?
If Geldhart gets injured or ill, we're back to playing a winger as a striker again, and it hasn't been a real successful experiment.

Welcome back 8ball

[Cjay]

Here we go

Alright full disclaimer here, fully appreciate we wouldn't be where we are without Bielsa. Fully appreciate him as a person and for what he has done for the club, there is not a hope we would be promoted without him and not a soul.on earth would get more out of this squad than he has.

Sacking Bielsa is never an option with this squad, it's his squad, it's the one he wants apparently and it's the one he loathes to change.

Bielsa has worked wonders with what he has but that presents an issue.

He isn't keen on moving on from what he has.

This isn't my opinion, Phil Hay has reported on it many times. Even in the summer Bielsa only wanted to keep Alioski, he wasn't interested in anyone else, keep Alioski was his remit. Only when that became impossible did he reluctantly accept a new full back.

Offered Van De Beek, is he a better player than all our cms? Absolutely 100%, given we are playing Roberts, Rodrigo and Forshaw in the number 8/10 roles that wouldn't be hard tbf. But Bielsa turned him down.

See Bielsa views players differently, to him his system is king and knowing his system is key. That is why he loathes to move on from his core, he has worked with them a long time, they know his system and roles off by heart in theory. If they do it perfectly it will be fine in his view.

He turns down far more gifted players than we have, just today we learned he didnt want Van De Beek, he didnt want Rodrigo De Paul, he didnt want Noa Lang, he didn't want Matheus Cunha etc.

Bielsa has his core group and in his mind it is almost impossible to improve on them because they know his system and they are Bielsa fit and that's all that matters and nobody brought in has that.

However the downside of this imo is it leaves you with a very weak squad quality and depth wise and also teams have to evolve.

What worked last year may not work next year, squads need fresh blood and more quality added, it isn't all just about systems and patterns and especially at the top level it is vital you don't don't still in any way.

Bielsa has never had to evolve a squad, he has never stuck around long enough. Most managers don't, they are either unwilling or unable and therefore end up getting the sack when tried and tested stops working and when faith in the same players eventually fails.

Eddie Howe is an example.

Steve Cook, Simon Francis, Adam Smith, Dan Gosling, Junior Stanislas, Josh King and Callum Wilson all played 10 or more League matches in Bournemouth's first Premier league season and last.

Eddie Howe didn't want to phase out his core group and eventually it caught up with them.

You have to move on as a club.

I've mentioned it before but teams like Villa and Wolves had almost totally phased out their Championship squad by season 3 and even In season 2 7 of Wolves and Villa first choice 11 we're new players. I mention these 2 because atm they are the most upwardly mobile of the newer promoted teams.

For us if Bielsa had fully fit squad, Meslier, Ayling, Cooper, Bamford, Harrison, Klich, Dallas, all likely to be in his first 11, it's the totally opposite attitude, all of them were here since Bielsa first season and then you can include Roberts and Forshaw.

So with Bielsa their is a clear unwillingness to move on, I am no Orta fan (and maybe all his targets aren't good) but a few of them will be but Bielsa just doesn't want them, they don't know his system and why would he take the time to train a new player when his core group already know it?

I think imo I get the impression things are coming to a natural end under Bielsa.

I think the club can feel it to.

It's clear I believe that his core group has reached a bit of a ceiling in terms of what they have to give interms of fitness and quality and the time is arriving for major changes.

Bielsa is imo very very unlikely to want to do that and I don't think he would authorise it. And I think tbh he may realise that his methods have reached a limit with this group of players (he has many times said how what he tried didn't work).

And imo whatever happens this season I think a parting of the ways and a significant change in squad will happen as imo Bielsa's time and journey here with his core group will come to a natural end and the club will want to start the process of the next level and era if you like.

Not a sack Bielsa thread I want to reiterate, just my view of what will happen and where we are.

[SG90]

Agreed Cjay.

Good example of Bournemouth. They also finished 9th and were relegated the following season, so it wasn't just the blunts!

If fans want better than Klich, Roberts etc then you have to accept we need a new manager next season.

[Mountain]

Not a sack Bielsa thread I want to reiterate...

you have to accept we need a new manager next season.

When is a sack Bielsa thread not a sack Bielsa thread?

[SG90]

When is a sack Bielsa thread not a sack Bielsa thread?

Technically it wouldn't be sacking as he isn't contracted for next season!

[Cjay]

When is a sack Bielsa thread not a sack Bielsa thread?

Just won't be a new contract.

No sacking, no payoff.

Just a mutual agreement that the journey is at an end.

[Cjay]

Agreed Cjay.

Good example of Bournemouth. They also finished 9th and were relegated the following season, so it wasn't just the blunts!

If fans want better than Klich, Roberts etc then you have to accept we need a new manager next season.

Thanks.

14th season before but had finished 9th second season in the Prem a few years before and then steadily declined, 12th, 14th, 18th.

And one of the criticisms.of Howe was he was unwilling to evolve and the signings they had made hadn't been good enough (sound familiar).

[Sara]

Completely disagree. Bielsa's approach in prioritising his system, and the players who are able to implement it, has been fully vindicated by the success he has achieved with this squad. He has also demonstrated that youth players, like Struijk, can be effectively introduced over time to maximise their development and potential, and develop the squad.

I don't see any other managers who are getting more out of their players, or whose strategies are more capable of overachieving against far more established and expensive opposition. On the day, a fully fit Bielsa team can beat anybody, as we have seen time and time again.

The weakness in the small squad approach is being vulnerable to injuries. The only way to have guarded against that this season would have been a squad about four times the size, with the attendant problems this brings of greatly increased costs, and a large number of dissatisfied players who will spend most of their time not being utilised. Bielsa's approach is player flexibility, and drawing on youth which, given an average level of injuries, is more than adequate.

Effectively, you are wanting to throw away all that Bielsa has achieved in favour of an insurance against unprecedented levels of injury, and also loss of form, possibly due to covid in players like Klich. Not just the results either, but a style that is better to watch than just about any in world football, and a unity, spirit, ethos and integrity which is totally unique.

Bielsa's reign will heralded for generations to come. Sometimes some people don't appreciate what they've got until it's gone; fortunately, most of us do. Be careful what you wish for.

[Cjay]

Completely disagree. Bielsa's approach in prioritising his system, and the players who are able to implement it, has been fully vindicated by the success he has achieved with this squad. He has also demonstrated that youth players, like Struijk, can be effectively introduced over time to maximise their development and potential, and develop the squad.

I don't see any other managers who are getting more out of their players, or whose strategies are more capable of overachieving against far more established and expensive opposition. On the day, a fully fit Bielsa team can beat anybody, as we have seen time and time again.

The weakness in the small squad approach is being vulnerable to injuries. The only way to have guarded against that this season would have been a squad about four times the size, with the attendant problems this brings of greatly increased costs, and a large number of dissatisfied players who will spend most of their time not being utilised. Bielsa's approach is player flexibility, and drawing on youth which, given an average level of injuries, is more than adequate.

Effectively, you are wanting to throw away all that Bielsa has achieved in favour of an insurance against unprecedented levels of injury, and also loss of form, possibly due to covid in players like Klich. Not just the results either, but a style that is better to watch than just about any in world football, and a unity, spirit, ethos and integrity which is totally unique.

Bielsa's reign will heralded for generations to come. Sometimes some people don't appreciate what they've got until it's gone; fortunately, most of us do. Be careful what you wish for.

Misunderstanding I think.

I do appreciate it but imo change is coming and Bielsa won't be part of it.

He won't want to be either.

It's not throwing anything away it's evolving as teams have to do.

The club I feel will want a far more evolutionary approach this summer and I think that will see Bielsa say thanks and goodbye.

[Byebyegeegee]

Firstly, this is clearly not another “sack Bielsa thread”, if you have nothing constructive to say about the future of Leeds United over the next couple of years, then please don’t bother saying anything.

I agree with your premise Cjay about natural ends after periods of success. We have seen it before with A few of our Managers and even with Revie too, who, I believe, because his main stays for the previous up to 10 years, the likes of Bremner, Giles, Hunter, Reaney, Madeley, Jones etc we’re coming towards the end of their careers, could foresee a dip in fortunes but couldn’t contemplate the thought of having to replace them. I think the offer from England came at the right time for The Don.

The fact that we need major changes to our current squad if we are to remain in this division, let alone progress, is undeniable, based on this season’s evidence. Like you, I’m not sure Marcelo Bielsa, even if he doesn’t call it a day at the end of the season (which I think he will anyway) would have the inclination or disposition to do it.

So the new Manager (whoever that will be) is the key, if the board choose the wrong man then we could be heading for a new period of obscurity, if they get it right then I think we have a good base (thanks to Bielsa) to build on.

[Sara]

Misunderstanding I think.

I do appreciate it but imo change is coming and Bielsa won't be part of it.

He won't want to be either.

It's not throwing anything away it's evolving as teams have to do.

I sincerely hope you're wrong. I've always believed Bielsa can take us to the next level, and I don't think his work at Leeds is finished by a long way.

The brief for the first two seasons in the prem was 17th or better. First season we breezed it in style, this season it's been a struggle due to injuries, but I still think we'll finish 12th - 14th.

The time to be having this conversation is after the summer. If Bielsa stays, and we invest in the squad again, as has been the plan all along, then we'll see whether your dissatisfaction is warranted. I expect another season of Bielsa and four or five signings in the summer will see us top eight and challenging.

[Mountain]

...if you have nothing constructive to say about the future of Leeds United over the next couple of years, then please don’t bother saying anything...

The "constructive posts only" one is a good idea.

For starters it would end the stream of "pet project" and "square pegs in round holes" posts, as well as the fondness for abusing Roberts.

[White Riot]

Here we go

Alright full disclaimer here, fully appreciate we wouldn't be where we are without Bielsa. Fully appreciate him as a person and for what he has done for the club, there is not a hope we would be promoted without him and not a soul.on earth would get more out of this squad than he has.

Sacking Bielsa is never an option with this squad, it's his squad, it's the one he wants apparently and it's the one he loathes to change.

Bielsa has worked wonders with what he has but that presents an issue.

He isn't keen on moving on from what he has.

This isn't my opinion, Phil Hay has reported on it many times. Even in the summer Bielsa only wanted to keep Alioski, he wasn't interested in anyone else, keep Alioski was his remit. Only when that became impossible did he reluctantly accept a new full back.

Offered Van De Beek, is he a better player than all our cms? Absolutely 100%, given we are playing Roberts, Rodrigo and Forshaw in the number 8/10 roles that wouldn't be hard tbf. But Bielsa turned him down.

See Bielsa views players differently, to him his system is king and knowing his system is key. That is why he loathes to move on from his core, he has worked with them a long time, they know his system and roles off by heart in theory. If they do it perfectly it will be fine in his view.

He turns down far more gifted players than we have, just today we learned he didnt want Van De Beek, he didnt want Rodrigo De Paul, he didnt want Noa Lang, he didn't want Matheus Cunha etc.

Bielsa has his core group and in his mind it is almost impossible to improve on them because they know his system and they are Bielsa fit and that's all that matters and nobody brought in has that.

However the downside of this imo is it leaves you with a very weak squad quality and depth wise and also teams have to evolve.

What worked last year may not work next year, squads need fresh blood and more quality added, it isn't all just about systems and patterns and especially at the top level it is vital you don't don't still in any way.

Bielsa has never had to evolve a squad, he has never stuck around long enough. Most managers don't, they are either unwilling or unable and therefore end up getting the sack when tried and tested stops working and when faith in the same players eventually fails.

Eddie Howe is an example.

Steve Cook, Simon Francis, Adam Smith, Dan Gosling, Junior Stanislas, Josh King and Callum Wilson all played 10 or more League matches in Bournemouth's first Premier league season and last.

Eddie Howe didn't want to phase out his core group and eventually it caught up with them.

You have to move on as a club.

I've mentioned it before but teams like Villa and Wolves had almost totally phased out their Championship squad by season 3 and even In season 2 7 of Wolves and Villa first choice 11 we're new players. I mention these 2 because atm they are the most upwardly mobile of the newer promoted teams.

For us if Bielsa had fully fit squad, Meslier, Ayling, Cooper, Bamford, Harrison, Klich, Dallas, all likely to be in his first 11, it's the totally opposite attitude, all of them were here since Bielsa first season and then you can include Roberts and Forshaw.

So with Bielsa their is a clear unwillingness to move on, I am no Orta fan (and maybe all his targets aren't good) but a few of them will be but Bielsa just doesn't want them, they don't know his system and why would he take the time to train a new player when his core group already know it?

I think imo I get the impression things are coming to a natural end under Bielsa.

I think the club can feel it to.

It's clear I believe that his core group has reached a bit of a ceiling in terms of what they have to give interms of fitness and quality and the time is arriving for major changes.

Bielsa is imo very very unlikely to want to do that and I don't think he would authorise it. And I think tbh he may realise that his methods have reached a limit with this group of players (he has many times said how what he tried didn't work).

And imo whatever happens this season I think a parting of the ways and a significant change in squad will happen as imo Bielsa's time and journey here with his core group will come to a natural end and the club will want to start the process of the next level and era if you like.

Not a sack Bielsa thread I want to reiterate, just my view of what will happen and where we are.

Completely agree Cjay, brilliant post, you capture my feelings exactly.

I'm very appreciative for what Bielsa has done for this club.

But we've witnessed this season clear evidence for me that this squad and club will not be progressing under Bielsa.

We've stood still and as consequence oh that we've regressed, and will regress further if Bielsa stays as he's unwilling to improve a small squad that lacks the necessary quality and depth to progress at this level.

So let's gracefully say goodbye to Bielsa and say thanks for all he's done.

A new coach and refreshment and improvement is the squad is necessary for us to progress.

[CanuckMightyWhite]

Bielsa loves football, and that is his life. Leeds has given him the platform to fulfill it, and he will continue here as long as he wants which will only be negated by the ownership. So far Radz has been a model owner for him, don’t believe 49ers will want to threaten that status quo if they complete the takeover. They understand the value of good coaching.

Bielsa will develop the youngsters, that want to be here, and with added sprinkle of quality through MF additions we will get better. Some of the ageing players we want to replace such as Cooper, Klich, Ayling, Dallas will soon become bench options (and damn good ones in the Bielsa system) slowly over time.
The Bielsa project is far from over, injuries have pushed us to the brink this season, it is an outlier and we won’t be this cursed again.
We will soon be an established Pl team, and with world class Manager at the helm, squad supplanted with one or two quality additions each year will see us rising towards the top half and even Europe soon.

[VinnysTattoo]

Totally agree Cjay.

The Bielsa way is awesome to watch at times and requires a level of fitness that’s not evident in most footballers. The flip side is more injuries IMO. This also means we have to rely on players like Roberts who will never be at a standard needed at Premiership level and playing a totally unsuitable number 9 in the form of James.

If Bielsa turned around and said he would be expanding his first team squad and accepts we need more quality then I’d be a happy bunny.

The board need to sit down with him and thrash out what we are going to do, because surely we cannot move into another season with what we have now even if everyone is back fit.

[Byebyegeegee]

For starters it would end the stream of "pet project" and "square pegs in round holes" posts, as well as the fondness for abusing Roberts.

What you see as abuse I would probably see as criticism.

The point is if he played better/was a better player than he has shown himself to be in over 100 1st team appearances then he wouldn’t be criticised so consistently, if at all. You don’t get anybody criticising Raphinha or Phillips or any other player so consistently, because they are seen generally to contribute at least adequately and in a lot of cases more than adequately to the team.

In my opinion, Roberts doesn’t contribute anywhere near enough and is simply not good enough at this level, and if that’s abuse then, fair enough, I stand accused.

[SG90]

Less injuries? If anything it would be even more than this year. A fifth year of an ageing squad training/playing at such intensity with next-to-no rotation, but for injuries.

[weasel]

It is interesting how we keep hearing all this talk about wholesale changes. Correct me if I'm wrong but that would cost a lot of money and we haven't been taken over by a rich Saudi family have we?

In my post in the thread about summer plans (looks like it isn't just that PJB fella who feels the need to start threads to basically say the same things) I posted that there is no need for wholesale changes just 2 or 3 suitable quality additions, namely an 8 and a 10 and possibly a versatile striker - and then replacements if needed if KP, Raphinha and Drameh leave. The rest of the players, such as Dallas and Klich are certainly good enough to be squad players and capable of also holding their own in the starting line up.

I would say Bournemouth's problems was more down to poor signings than the existing players. Any team can get it wrong by signing players that fail, made worse if you have bought then to replace a player that had been playing well for you for years. An example being Leeds buying Rocastle to replace Strachan.

Having a good core of players is also veyr important. Man U had their team and made 2 or 3 signings per year and were dominant for years. Stalwarts such as Schmeichel, Bruce, Pallister, Irwin, Ince (then Keane), Neville, Giggs, Scholes etc. They also had players that they replaced at the right time, Sharpe/Kanchelskis out, Ronaldo in, then Beckham. Bruce replaced by Stam. Up front there were more changes but still Fergie never overhauled his squad in 1 go, it was 2 or 3 at a time. You need to be able to keep your style, your way of playing and add gradually as players leave.

[weasel]

Less injuries? If anything it would be even more than this year. A fifth year of an ageing squad training/playing at such intensity with next-to-no rotation, but for injuries.

No real evidence to suggest why injuries would increase. If we look at all the players who have been here for Bielsa's 3 1/2 seasons

Bamford - injured for most of the first season, near ever present for seasons 2 and 3, injured for most of this. No real reason to suggest he should do better or worse than previously.

Dallas - injured for most of the first season, near ever present since. No reason to suggest he isn't getting stronger.

Harrison - near ever present for all of Bielsa's time so no reason to suggest any increased likelihood of injury

Cooper - Even prior to Bielsa he was likely to miss a few games per season. Likely to continue as he has and miss a few matches next season.

Klich - Near ever present the last 3 1/2 seasons barring the hip injuries. Think that is just normal wear and tear for any player especially a midfielder. Would suggest age may make him a little more prone to getting knocks but no reason to suggest he won't be available the majority of the time.

Ayling - has had a fairly chequered time with injuries so likely to continue in that way next season. No more or less likely to get injured than in any previous season.

Struyjk - Despite limited appearances has had a few knocks. Therefore would expect him to miss a few matches again. No more or less likely to get injured next season.

Phillips - Again similar to Cooper has continually missed a few matches so would expect him to miss a few matches again. No more or less likely to get injured next season.

So looking at the records I see no reason why there would be reason to expect worse next season.

Additionally Koch and Llorente injured most of last season, seem stronger this season. Raphinha no real expectations for him to get more injured next season. Has had injury problems caused by reckless challenges on him.

Firpo - likely to be similar to Koch and Llorente and be stronger after the first year of Bielsa's methods.

Dan James - No real reason to expect injuries.

Rodrigo - Injured for much of last season and this so no reason to expect it could be much worse next season.

So looking at things rather than just going with blind panic or looking through doom-laden specs there is no real reason to suggest why a 5th year of Bielsa would see injuries being worse. The opposite generally would appear more likely with players having got stronger.