The #LUFC Breakfast Debate (Thursday 2nd December) - Leeds have scored 11 goals fewer compared to this point last season

[CHAPELALLMAN]

I beg to disagree, the moral majority is so aptly named. You are the ones who take the moral high ground, reinforcing each others point of view with and showing disapproval by . Opposing views are apon or ignored, regressing inwards to a protective huddle, and finding comfort with like minds

I can't believe I have resorted to using emojis. I repent.

Sent from my SM-T515 using Tapatalk

Well put it like this, I don't think that some people who think that Bielsa can do no wrong and that Orta has been an unqualified success are in any way 'negative.' They simply have a point of view.

A few months ago one person - who is not on here these days - tended at the time to be the biggest proponent of Bielsa boosterism on here. At one point he declared that the Bielsa era was going to eclipse even the 11 or 12 year Revie golden era ! Never mind that Bielsa was about 63 when he became Leeds manager compared to Revie being 34 , and never mind that financial muscle was so much less important back in the 60s. I thought his assertion was frankly ridiculous, but when I dared to question it I was labelled ' negative ' and a pessimist. Maybe now with hindsight - given that the club is languishing in 15th place in the PL - I was just being realistic after all. And I would be very surprised if Marcelo is the manager next season.

To me if we can get anywhere near the results of the O'Leary era in the next 10 years it would be an amazing achievement.

[weasel]

Exactly

If I found stuff not to my taste, or boring, I wouldn't continually keep reading it and then moaning about the fact that it's not for me and it's boring, blah, blah, blah

I know for a fact that if I read Wuthering Heights, or other novels by the Bronte sisters, I'm gonna be bored to tears. So logically rather than sit and read them all and then complain that they're boring, I'm gonna spend my precious time doing something that I find interesting = simples

But then again we're all different

Yet you constantly complain about the product LUFC being offered to you yet continue to watch it and then moan etc
Logically rather than sit and watch and then complain why not find it more interesting by enjoying the team giving 100%, accept we don't have the best squad, we have a few injuries and we're not really an established premier league team. I love the product I watch even though we aren't hitting the heights that we have done at times in the last 3 years.

[rab_rant]

My complaint is not agaist negativity but the herd mentality that it seems to induce. It is a case of once it gets started there seems to be a cascading pile on effect, and the same lame jokes about Roberts and Costa , Firpo and James are trotted out.

How many times have I heard "We will be Ok now, super sub Roberts is coming on" This attempt at humour grates on the nerves after you have heard it game after game.

Even when Roberts has done well there are those that lament that he is robbing poor Joffy of a place on the team. There is no rejoicing over even the smallest success, instead the herd has to gang together and find something "realistic" to throw their weight behind.

[White Riot]

Yet you constantly complain about the product LUFC being offered to you yet continue to watch it and then moan etc
Logically rather than sit and watch and then complain why not find it more interesting by enjoying the team giving 100%, accept we don't have the best squad, we have a few injuries and we're not really an established premier league team. I love the product I watch even though we aren't hitting the heights that we have done at times in the last 3 years.

Good for you mate

[Byebyegeegee]

Rab you could relate the herd mentality complaint to your side of the argument also. Once someone has the audacity to be critical of any aspect of the club, management or team, you all pile on, rebuke and insist that we should just accept what is happening without question whether we consider it to be right or wrong insisting that any criticism will have an adverse affect on results or destabilise the club or some such nonsense.

Over the years we fans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money on tickets, merchandise, travel etc following Leeds United (just ask 64 for example how much) and I believe that gives us the right to air our opinions, positive or negative without your (and others) continuing patronising put downs.

As for Roberts, if he played as well he should be doing as a Premier League player then perhaps he wouldn’t attract so much negativity amongst, what I believe by now is, probably the majority of fans. Maybe you don’t agree but having watched him over the last couple of years I, personally, don’t think he contributes anywhere near enough to the team and as long as that is the case then I will not hesitate to be realistic and say so on here, whether you consider it to be boring, inducing herd mentality, detrimental to the club or, laughably, forcing Marcelo Bielsa to leave.

[White Riot]

Rab you could relate the herd mentality complaint to your side of the argument also. Once someone has the audacity to be critical of any aspect of the club, management or team, you all pile on, rebuke and insist that we should just accept what is happening without question whether we consider it to be right or wrong insisting that any criticism will have an adverse affect on results or destabilise the club or some such nonsense.

Over the years we fans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money on tickets, merchandise, travel etc following Leeds United (just ask 64 for example how much) and I believe that gives us the right to air our opinions, positive or negative without your (and others) continuing patronising put downs.

As for Roberts, if he played as well he should be doing as a Premier League player then perhaps he wouldn’t attract so much negativity amongst, what I believe by now is, probably the majority of fans. Maybe you don’t agree but having watched him over the last couple of years I, personally, don’t think he contributes anywhere near enough to the team and as long as that is the case then I will not hesitate to be realistic and say so on here, whether you consider it to be boring, inducing herd mentality, detrimental to the club or, laughably, forcing Marcelo Bielsa to leave.

Correct BBGG, couldn't have put it better

[1964white]

Over the years we fans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money on tickets, merchandise, travel etc following Leeds United (just ask 64 for example how much) and I believe that gives us the right to air our opinions, positive or negative without your (and others) continuing patronising put downs.

I dread to think how much I've spent following LUFC over the last 58 years, Byebye. I could be extremely affluent now, however I've enjoyed the ups (not so much the downs) watching my beloved Leeds.

Furthermore, I do enjoy different opinions from both sides of the positive/negative spin.

[Byebyegeegee]

I dread to think how much I've spent following LUFC over the last 58 years, Byebye. I could be extremely affluent now, however I've enjoyed the ups (not so much the downs) watching my beloved Leeds.

Furthermore, I do enjoy different opinions from both sides of the positive/negative spin.

Of course we enjoy it 64, what else would we do with our money that’s the least bit as enjoyable.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Rab you could relate the herd mentality complaint to your side of the argument also. Once someone has the audacity to be critical of any aspect of the club, management or team, you all pile on, rebuke and insist that we should just accept what is happening without question whether we consider it to be right or wrong insisting that any criticism will have an adverse affect on results or destabilise the club or some such nonsense.

Over the years we fans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money on tickets, merchandise, travel etc following Leeds United (just ask 64 for example how much) and I believe that gives us the right to air our opinions, positive or negative without your (and others) continuing patronising put downs.

As for Roberts, if he played as well he should be doing as a Premier League player then perhaps he wouldn’t attract so much negativity amongst, what I believe by now is, probably the majority of fans. Maybe you don’t agree but having watched him over the last couple of years I, personally, don’t think he contributes anywhere near enough to the team and as long as that is the case then I will not hesitate to be realistic and say so on here, whether you consider it to be boring, inducing herd mentality, detrimental to the club or, laughably, forcing Marcelo Bielsa to leave.

And I don't think I can exactly be regarded as a fairweather fan considering all those home matches I attended at ER when the most we could look forward to was visits by the likes of Shrewsbury, Carlisle or Oldham. Unfortunately I moved to London just a month or two before Howard Wilkinson was appointed, so missed the sudden return of the glory days. I had to follow the action from a distance sadly.

[Overman]

Rab you could relate the herd mentality complaint to your side of the argument also. Once someone has the audacity to be critical of any aspect of the club, management or team, you all pile on, rebuke and insist that we should just accept what is happening without question whether we consider it to be right or wrong insisting that any criticism will have an adverse affect on results or destabilise the club or some such nonsense.

Over the years we fans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money on tickets, merchandise, travel etc following Leeds United (just ask 64 for example how much) and I believe that gives us the right to air our opinions, positive or negative without your (and others) continuing patronising put downs.

As for Roberts, if he played as well he should be doing as a Premier League player then perhaps he wouldn’t attract so much negativity amongst, what I believe by now is, probably the majority of fans. Maybe you don’t agree but having watched him over the last couple of years I, personally, don’t think he contributes anywhere near enough to the team and as long as that is the case then I will not hesitate to be realistic and say so on here, whether you consider it to be boring, inducing herd mentality, detrimental to the club or, laughably, forcing Marcelo Bielsa to leave.

[The Subhuman]

Best Leeds periods in my lifetime

1 - Under the Don
2 - The Wilkinson Years
3 - Bielsa's amazing turnaround
4 - The David O'Leary hour, very short and sweet till he himself bought it tumbling down

Right now not much between Bielsa and The Sargent Major, I doubt very much if O'Leary or Wilko could do what MB has done in this day and age...

[rab_rant]

Rab you could relate the herd mentality complaint to your side of the argument also.

In my estimate there are about 3 of us that take the contrarian view, but what we lack in numbers we seem to make up in erudition much to the aggrevation of the majority

[mentalcase]

In my estimate there are about 3 of us that take the contrarian view, but what we lack in numbers we seem to make up in erudition much to the aggrevation of the majority

Not really Rab, no-one is arguing for the sake of arguing, way I see it is, simply debating, I dare say some don't like what I post, I don't agree with some of the stuff others post, but if I don't like where it's going, if it's boring like Bielsa' narratives, i simply skip over them.
One thing I'll never agree on, and this apparently grates on you, is players you , and a few more wish to impose your views upon us all that certain players are worthy of our worship.
Roberts is shite, Costa is shite, Cassila was shite, Harrison needs a boot up t' arse.
All teams faithful have their favourites, most fans agree who needs weeding out, Roberts fits well into that catergory, when Bielsa finally loses patience with Roberts , who will you blame then, Bielsa ??

[Overman]

In my estimate there are about 3 of us that take the contrarian view, but what we lack in numbers we seem to make up in erudition much to the aggrevation of the majority

Yes, keeping telling yourself that, if it helps.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

About Bielsa and Wilko and there ' not being much between them ' I think that this comment helps me to understand why quite often the Marcelo Bielsa adulation seems to me a bit OTT, and at times almost cult-like in its fervour. Yes, he did very well to get promotion - that's because the club decided to make him the best paid manager in the championship in order to get that particular job done, and second time around he did it. Quite simply if you pay peanuts you get monkeys....

Just to remind people, Wilko took over at Leeds in October 1988 with the club 21st in the old second division - ahead on goal difference with Birmingham City who were in the relegation places with 6 points. For the rest of that season he stabilised the situation and the club finished 10th. In Wilko's first full season the club won the division and was promoted after 8 years in the second tier. In the club's first season back in the old first division Leeds finished an amazing 4th and were in the semi finals of the League Cup. Remarkably in its second season back the club won the first division title - Wilko is still the last English manager to win the top tier. That midfield of Batty, Speed, McAllister and Strachan rivals any of the greatest midfields fielded by Revie. Then we had two 5th place finshes in the top tier, a League Cup final appearance and some memorable wins in ties of the European and UEFA cups. Unlike MB, Wilkinson didn't ignore the cup competitions, and furthermore we were in Europe twice during his reign.

Let's not forget that Wilko won two league titles in his first 3 full seasons at the club, having taken over a side that was in danger of being relegated to the old 3rd division. Even Ferguson didn't turn things around that quickly after being appointed as manager. He also set up the academy and training facilities at Thorp Arch which paved the way for the O'Leary mini golden era a few years later, and which still benefits the club and Marcelo Bielsa today.

So MB and Wilko being pretty well on a par ? Nah - you're having a laaarf surely...Wilko is still by far the second most successful and the second best manager in the club's history. Strange though - I can't remember Wilko receiving even half the adulation that MB receives today for doing far less. IMO Wilko is the most underrated manager in English top tier football history.

[The Subhuman]

Both fairly intransigent managers, success at the lower level, Wilko won Div one when it was still possible for any team to do so. That can't happen now. Season after a triumph both managers toyed/are toying with the bottom places..

I have Wilkinson higher as he did it for longer albeit in an easier time

[Boo Radley]

Rab you could relate the herd mentality complaint to your side of the argument also. Once someone has the audacity to be critical of any aspect of the club, management or team, you all pile on, rebuke and insist that we should just accept what is happening without question whether we consider it to be right or wrong insisting that any criticism will have an adverse affect on results or destabilise the club or some such nonsense.

Over the years we fans have spent a hell of a lot of time and money on tickets, merchandise, travel etc following Leeds United (just ask 64 for example how much) and I believe that gives us the right to air our opinions, positive or negative without your (and others) continuing patronising put downs.

As for Roberts, if he played as well he should be doing as a Premier League player then perhaps he wouldn’t attract so much negativity amongst, what I believe by now is, probably the majority of fans. Maybe you don’t agree but having watched him over the last couple of years I, personally, don’t think he contributes anywhere near enough to the team and as long as that is the case then I will not hesitate to be realistic and say so on here, whether you consider it to be boring, inducing herd mentality, detrimental to the club or, laughably, forcing Marcelo Bielsa to leave.

Spot on Byebyebeegee, totally agree and well said!

There is a belief abroad that you are disloyal if you question anything about the team selection or offer an opinion different to Bielsa’s team choice. What is the point of free thinking support if that’s the case? Bielsa has virtually unanimous support from a free thinking support, but there are questions to be asked around obvious gaps in the team’s performance, specifically that we score so few goals. This does not undermine all that is good, it’s about maximising our potential.

What really jars with me is that the likes of Rab are quick to quote their right to free speech when they take a contrarian position themselves but accuse everyone else of being sheep when they find themselves in a minority position. To be honest that is deeply offensive.

You have to remember that we are all passionate Leeds United fans and only ever want the best for the club. No one is perfect and we know that we aren’t, but neither is Bielsa.

Does anyone here really believe that Bielsa will only talk football with people who agree with him? I’m fairly sure that he would do the opposite and search out the opposite point of view just to open his head even more. Debate is good, different opinions matter.

[Boo Radley]

Yet you constantly complain about the product LUFC being offered to you yet continue to watch it and then moan etc
Logically rather than sit and watch and then complain why not find it more interesting by enjoying the team giving 100%, accept we don't have the best squad, we have a few injuries and we're not really an established premier league team. I love the product I watch even though we aren't hitting the heights that we have done at times in the last 3 years.

I know you are a dedicated supporter weasel, but someone wanting more is not the enemy. We all know what how far we have come and what Bielsa has done for us. I think it is safe to say that we are a truly proud of this team.

That does not mean that we have parked out faculties at the door. Those that are crítical of current selection choices just want more for the team and the club. It is not an outrageous position to take that Roberts is not scoring for us and we’d like to see if the highly regarded talent, that is Gelhardt, could do better for us.
If he turns out to be s**t then we move on, but just maybe he’s a gem and he scores left, right and centre. Then that one move may give the entire team’s effort their just reward.

Why would you berate genuine fans who look for such a change? It is not a deranged suggestion. I just don’t get that.

[Overman]

Spot on Byebyebeegee, totally agree and well said!

There is a belief abroad that you are disloyal if you question anything about the team selection or offer an opinion different to Bielsa’s team choice. What is the point of free thinking support if that’s the case? Bielsa has virtually unanimous support from a free thinking support, but there are questions to be asked around obvious gaps in the team’s performance, specifically that we score so few goals. This does not undermine all that is good, it’s about maximising our potential.

What really jars with me is that the likes of Rab are quick to quote their right to free speech when they take a contrarian position themselves but accuse everyone else of being sheep when they find themselves in a minority position. To be honest that is deeply offensive.

You have to remember that we are all passionate Leeds United fans and only ever want the best for the club. No one is perfect and we know that we aren’t, but neither is Bielsa.

Does anyone here really believe that Bielsa will only talk football with people who agree with him? I’m fairly sure that he would do the opposite and search out the opposite point of view just to open his head even more. Debate is good, different opinions matter.

I rarely pay much credence to it. He's first on his soap box when it comes to the whole vaccine counter narrative. God forbid you offer an opposing view on MB that doesn't align with his. Then out pops the usual irreverent ditty to belittle. It all feels very selective.

[CHAPELALLMAN]

Both fairly intransigent managers, success at the lower level, Wilko won Div one when it was still possible for any team to do so. That can't happen now. Season after a triumph both managers toyed/are toying with the bottom places..

I have Wilkinson higher as he did it for longer albeit in an easier time

In the 10 years between Liverpool winning the title in1981/2 and Wilko/Leeds winning the title in 1991/2 only Liverpool, Leeds, Everton and Arsenal won the first division title.Go back 20 years from 1971/2 to 1991/2 and it's only 7 different clubs that won the top tier - Leeds twice, Liverpool 10 times, Everton twice, Arsenal twice, Derby twice and Villa and Forest once. So winning the old first division was an incredible feat in just the second season back having been stuck in division two for 8 years.