How much trouble are we in?/interesting Square Ball podcast

[1964white]

Also for all the talk about how everything will be ok once we get KP, Raph and co back.

KP has missed 2 games of 8 and only missed Southampton and Manure.

Raph only missed yesterday.

Ayling played 5 games (we won none conceded 12)

Bamford played 5 also taking 15 shots scoring 1 with only 4 shots on target.

So it isnt like things were going well when those players were fit either, no reason to think if and when they get back things will change.

Good points Cjay, but we've rarely been as toothless as that with those players in the team.

I reckon we'd have won that match with a full quota of our best players.

Phillips would have filled the gaping hole in our midfield as opposed to Pascal who is hopeless in that role. Struijk is a decent CB, especially when he has Llorente to guide him.

Bamford would have worked much harder than Rodrigo (has no pressing game in him whatsoever). Saints CB's had an easy day, one of the easiest 90 minutes in their careers I'd imagine.

Raphinha gives us the attacking classy flair those around him are incapable of on a consistent basis

To be fair to Ayling, apart from the Manure game, he was used as a CB something he isn't. I still believe Ayling is a big player for us in an attacking sense, bombing down the right flank. No disrespect to Shackleton who hasn't let us down & I personally thought he was our best player vs the Saints.

Another key point, we haven't had Llorente at the back when the above players mentioned were available.

[Chilli D]

Also for all the talk about how everything will be ok once we get KP, Raph and co back.

KP has missed 2 games of 8 and only missed Southampton and Manure.

Raph only missed yesterday.

Ayling played 5 games (we won none conceded 12)

Bamford played 5 also taking 15 shots scoring 1 with only 4 shots on target.

So it isnt like things were going well when those players were fit either, no reason to think if and when they get back things will change.

So what's the answer?
All of us are pointing out what we believe to be wrong but the squad we have is the squad we have until January at least.
The January transfer window is notoriously difficult to get quality players in so the players we have right now will probably be the ones that have to get us out of this slump we're in.
So I ask the question- what's the answer?

[1964white]

So what's the answer?
All of us are pointing out what we believe to be wrong but the squad we have is the squad we have until January at least.
The January transfer window is notoriously difficult to get quality players in so the players we have right now will probably be the ones that have to get us out of this slump we're in.
So I ask the question- what's the answer?

In the long term

A bigger squad than we have now, with decent cover for our main players when unavailable.

Our substitutes rarely make an impact or change a game.

Short term

Have a plan B, we are far too predictable!

Play the players who are in good form.

Introduce the U23's players when we have the majority of our best players are available, not throw them in the deep end in a depleted team.

Stop fielding players out of their natural position. Only Phillips & Dallas have adapted well, pointless with the majority of them. Raphinha probably has the class in the middle, just as Pablo had.

Don't make three changes to accommodate ones favourites when only one change is required.

Defend as a unit rather than go gun-ho, especially against the class teams, as they will kill us if we leave ourselves exposed.

A point is better than nothing, as would have been the case vs West Ham at ER.

[Orange Box]

It’s a common phrase but it applies to Bielsa’s game management at Leeds right now. “The epitome of insanity is to repeat previous mistakes and expect a different outcome.”

In my working life I came to understand that my primary function was to recognise fear. I’m seeing fear (of failure) right now. The expectation at Leeds is, in no small part, due to Don Revie. The Great Don set the standard that everyone associated with Leeds believes is our god given right, and anything less, no matter how close, is mental failure.

Last year we were euphoric, and expected improvement. Some on this forum advised caution and stability, others were gung-ho for expansion. Neither happened. Our management team froze. Fear.

Results haven’t gone our way. Watch the players now. Everything they do is stunted. Passes short. Passes overhit. Shots hitting the tea lady. Shots not being taken. Nowhere is the fluidity of previous seasons evident. Fear. Golfers call it the yips I believe.

Read this forum. On achieving promotion the groundswell was for five years of stability and minor growth then a major push on the moneybag clubs. One wobble at OT this August caused panic, then came the inevitable fallout (and falling out). Fear.

And to me this fear is justified, we are all terrified of our own history. If we go down, we don’t get back up. We’re not WBA or Norwich, we don’t want to be yo-yo clubs. We are Leeds. We have a god given right to be at the top.

Chilli asked the question - what’s the answer? I’ll say it, I don’t mind not being popular.

The King is dead. Long live the king.

[Johnboy1965]

This is where Bielsa has to show his mettle, it's all well and good everyone saying that he is one of the greatest coaches of all time ( And yes he has done wonders for the club with limited resources and as fans we are eternally grateful for what he has achieved for us.)
He now needs to show he can turn it around when things aren't great and somehow whether it be changes in formation, personnel or tactics start to get the performances and results that will see us steadily improve and climb out of danger.

If he can achieve that this season then I believe it would be one of his greatest achievements to date as at the minute we look shot of confidence and a pale shadow of the team that took the premier league by storm last season.

[SG90]

So what's the answer?
All of us are pointing out what we believe to be wrong but the squad we have is the squad we have until January at least.
The January transfer window is notoriously difficult to get quality players in so the players we have right now will probably be the ones that have to get us out of this slump we're in.
So I ask the question- what's the answer?

In short, the team isn't good enough, but the club/MB seem unwilling to accept that. In the summer we all knew we needed a proper CM, but the club only wanted a back up for Dallas and Klich, rather than an improvement. Hence we missed out on Gallagher and only identified O'Brien to sit on the bench, when there were plenty of quality players out there who were affordable.
We've played the exact same team pretty much for 3 years, with hardly any rest playing at 100mph. Players like Dallas and Klich need a spell out of the team, but won't get it.
There's no opportunity for players to earn their place in the X1, even if they play well. Struijk was benched as soon as Cooper was fit, and the same will happen to Shackleton.
We don't give the u23s game time, so they are not an option to bring off the bench or use for rotation.
Bielsa is very predictable with his line up and subs, takes no risks. We saw in the first season, he was willing to take risks. Now it was obvious Forshaw would be first sub on Saturday, as he was the only senior player on the bench.
We have better options in the u23s than some of the core 18, but their route is blocked but for injuries.

[1964white]

It’s a common phrase but it applies to Bielsa’s game management at Leeds right now. “The epitome of insanity is to repeat previous mistakes and expect a different outcome.”

In my working life I came to understand that my primary function was to recognise fear. I’m seeing fear (of failure) right now. The expectation at Leeds is, in no small part, due to Don Revie. The Great Don set the standard that everyone associated with Leeds believes is our god given right, and anything less, no matter how close, is mental failure.

Last year we were euphoric, and expected improvement. Some on this forum advised caution and stability, others were gung-ho for expansion. Neither happened. Our management team froze. Fear.

Results haven’t gone our way. Watch the players now. Everything they do is stunted. Passes short. Passes overhit. Shots hitting the tea lady. Shots not being taken. Nowhere is the fluidity of previous seasons evident. Fear. Golfers call it the yips I believe.

Read this forum. On achieving promotion the groundswell was for five years of stability and minor growth then a major push on the moneybag clubs. One wobble at OT this August caused panic, then came the inevitable fallout (and falling out). Fear.

And to me this fear is justified, we are all terrified of our own history. If we go down, we don’t get back up. We’re not WBA or Norwich, we don’t want to be yo-yo clubs. We are Leeds. We have a god given right to be at the top.

Chilli asked the question - what’s the answer? I’ll say it, I don’t mind not being popular.

The King is dead. Long live the king.

Great post Orange

I even more fearful now

[1964white]

In short, the team isn't good enough, but the club/MB seem unwilling to accept that. In the summer we all knew we needed a proper CM, but the club only wanted a back up for Dallas and Klich, rather than an improvement. Hence we missed out on Gallagher and only identified O'Brien to sit on the bench, when there were plenty of quality players out there who were affordable.
We've played the exact same team pretty much for 3 years, with hardly any rest playing at 100mph. Players like Dallas and Klich need a spell out of the team, but won't get it.
There's no opportunity for players to earn their place in the X1, even if they play well. Struijk was benched as soon as Cooper was fit, and the same will happen to Shackleton.
We don't give the u23s game time, so they are not an option to bring off the bench or use for rotation.
Bielsa is very predictable with his line up and subs, takes no risks. We saw in the first season, he was willing to take risks. Now it was obvious Forshaw would be first sub on Saturday, as he was the only senior player on the bench.
We have better options in the u23s than some of the core 18, but their route is blocked but for injuries.

All very true

[1964white]

This is where Bielsa has to show his mettle, it's all well and good everyone saying that he is one of the greatest coaches of all time ( And yes he has done wonders for the club with limited resources and as fans we are eternally grateful for what he has achieved for us.)
He now needs to show he can turn it around when things aren't great and somehow whether it be changes in formation, personnel or tactics start to get the performances and results that will see us steadily improve and climb out of danger.

If he can achieve that this season then I believe it would be one of his greatest achievements to date as at the minute we look shot of confidence and a pale shadow of the team that took the premier league by storm last season.

Agree, would be Bielsa's greatest achievement if he gets us out of the current mess!

[mentalcase]

The answer is we need to stop Bielsa picking the team full of his pet projects in cooper, Roberts, Rodrigo, forshaw and James , and replace them with players with more ability about them.
What a shower of s**t that 5 are, half the flaming team, no wonder we’re struggling.
Take off a centre forward,ok he was bab, but got very little service, and replace him with a cripple !! Class.
Harrison, another proper bone idle f@cker, we have kids dying to get on and we stick with lazy twats or useless had too much game time twats that will never make it like Roberts.
Winter of discontent will be blowing through ER if we don’t improve sharpish.

[SG90]

Also for all the talk about how everything will be ok once we get KP, Raph and co back.

KP has missed 2 games of 8 and only missed Southampton and Manure.

Raph only missed yesterday.

Ayling played 5 games (we won none conceded 12)

Bamford played 5 also taking 15 shots scoring 1 with only 4 shots on target.

So it isnt like things were going well when those players were fit either, no reason to think if and when they get back things will change.

Exactly. We had our best team out against Burnley and Newcastle, and couldn't beat either.

And why is everyone crying about Ayling when Shackleton has been better this season anyway?

[1964white]

Exactly. We had our best team out against Burnley and Newcastle, and couldn't beat either.

And why is everyone crying about Ayling when Shackleton has been better this season anyway?

We didn't have Llorente or Struijk as our CB's for the Newcastle game.

Saint-Maximin had a field day, he hasn't against other opposition this season, hardly got a look in vs a proper Spurs midfield/defence yesterday.

[WestgateRun]

It's a three step process:
1. Accept that this season, we will be in the bottom half of the table.
2. Get behind the team and the manager.
3. Enjoy the battle to win enough points for safety.

After all, this is what Newcastle, Southampton, Burnley etc. have been doing for the last decade. Or do we think we are somehow better than them?

[1964white]

It's a three step process:
1. Accept that this season, we will be in the bottom half of the table.
2. Get behind the team and the manager.
3. Enjoy the battle to win enough points for safety.

After all, this is what Newcastle, Southampton, Burnley etc. have been doing for the last decade. Or do we think we are somehow better than them?

We've spent much more money on our squad & coaches than those three clubs, who generally operate on a shoestring

[SG90]

We've spent much more money on our squad & coaches than those three clubs, who generally operate on a shoestring

If we finish 17th, I won't celebrate it or considered it an achievement, just be mightly relieved.

[BGwhite]

In short, the team isn't good enough, but the club/MB seem unwilling to accept that. In the summer we all knew we needed a proper CM, but the club only wanted a back up for Dallas and Klich, rather than an improvement. Hence we missed out on Gallagher and only identified O'Brien to sit on the bench, when there were plenty of quality players out there who were affordable.
We've played the exact same team pretty much for 3 years, with hardly any rest playing at 100mph. Players like Dallas and Klich need a spell out of the team, but won't get it.
There's no opportunity for players to earn their place in the X1, even if they play well. Struijk was benched as soon as Cooper was fit, and the same will happen to Shackleton.
We don't give the u23s game time, so they are not an option to bring off the bench or use for rotation.
Bielsa is very predictable with his line up and subs, takes no risks. We saw in the first season, he was willing to take risks. Now it was obvious Forshaw would be first sub on Saturday, as he was the only senior player on the bench.
We have better options in the u23s than some of the core 18, but their route is blocked but for injuries.

Superb post. We can see it, pundits can see it, it seems everyone knows what problems we have except the management or are they burying their heads in the sand ? If Bielsa can't do this anymore he needs to accept it and move on but time is running out . We are already starting to get cut off from mid table , minimum 4 pts from next 2 games is vital.

Sent from my moto g(9) plus using Tapatalk

[Byebyegeegee]

It's a three step process:
1. Accept that this season, we will be in the bottom half of the table.
2. Get behind the team and the manager.
3. Enjoy the battle to win enough points for safety.

After all, this is what Newcastle, Southampton, Burnley etc. have been doing for the last decade. Or do we think we are somehow better than them?

Perhaps, as you infer, we expect too much possibly due to the nearly 10 years of dominance during the Revie era. and apart from that episode, which was nearly 50 years ago, I accept that we have achieved no more than any other average Premier League or Championship club.

But even so, based on the enormous and, in my opinion, uniquely fanatical support that this club enjoys from it’s fan base, domestically and worldwide, I believe we are entitled to expect far more ambition to be shown than the likes of Southampton and Burnley (due to recent events Newcastle may be a different case) and indeed more ambition than the vast majority of other Premier League clubs.

[Gandalf]

I think we should remember that whilst we were missing regulars Southampton had a far more disruptive summer

Our squad that played yesterday have almost all bar James been playing together for years and that should for a side so reliant on the system be an advantage.

It's to simplistic to make excuses because of players missing

Southampton hadn't won in 10 games, Southampton lost Danny Ings, Jannick Vestergaard and Ryan Bertrand in the summer plus James Ward Prowse, Che Adams and Jack Stephens were all unavailable to.

Southampton were miles better than us yesterday and let's not kid ourselves, we have had Raph, Bamford, KP etc in the side this season and still been really really poor.

Performance levels haven't been good as a team or individuals and yesterday was merely the worst of a collective of lacklustre performances.

So I think just saying "ah it will be OK when Raph and Co are back" because Raph and Co have played this season and we still haven't played well.

Their is something wrong at LUFC.

Yesterday we were outran for the first time.

I don't think everything will just be fine when Raph and Co is back because everything wasn't fine before when they were back.

We are in a relegation battle make no mistake imo.

The same Southampton who outran and outpressed Man City to get a point at the Etihad, and who outran and outpressed Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, and probably would have got a point had JWP not been sent off. Their main issue has been their inability in scoring goals. Unfortunately they got one yesterday. One that was straight out of the Bielsa playbook. They should be commended for their performance rather than automatically thinking that we should beat them.

Every season since Bielsa arrived, we have chucked in performances that have been way off of Bielsa's demands. Our now regular embarrassment at Old Trafford, Wigan in his first season, Forest in his second, Brighton (Home and Away) last season. We have recovered spectacularly from those so far. I have faith that yesterday was a blip (especially with 6 of our first team 18 unavailable.)

Yesterday (and Scum) aside, I don't believe that we have played too badly, this season, and with better finishing we should have beaten both Newcastle and Burnley. We went toe to toe with Everton and West Ham, and should have been out of sight against Watford. Let's see where we are at Christmas, where league placings are more relevant on where you will end up. Saying that, last season at Christmas, we still had people on here worrying that Fulham were going to catch us, when we were in 15th.

[Mountain]

We've spent much more money on our squad & coaches than those three clubs, who generally operate on a shoestring

No we haven't.

Newcastle have far outspent Leeds and have a much bigger wage bill, as do Burnley and Southampton...

https://www.spotrac.com/epl/payroll/

[Orange Box]

Isn’t it a sad reflection that this year we are talking about ourselves in the company of Southampton and Burnley whereas last year we were talking about Everton and Spurs