BielsaBall concern 2

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Cjay
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BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Cjay »

When MB arrived there was a concern that the style may be exposed by not having the best individuals money can buy.

In the way the high pressing, attacking, man for man teams tend to be the exact opposite, bigger squads with tons of talent, Man City, Liverpool, Barca of the past etc.

They all had the best individuals money could buy for each specific role.

As a consequence they could pick there way through packed defences thanks to De Bruyne, Iniesta etc.

They could finish chances because they had properly clinical players like an Aguero.

But crucially they werent so easy to break on because they rarely gave the ball away and when they did they had top top level cbs and dms to cover the fast fullbacks who rarely got caught out anyway.

Was proven wrong in the Championship, we did very well and really were like a Man City or Barcelona in how we controlled the games.

But at this level where we come up against teams who have more talent individually who have played on the counter against the best in the league for years like Palace like Wolves like Leicester we are getting exposed.

Your well drilled but extensively lower league players are getting exposed for pace and positioning.

And because we go man for man all it takes is for one person to lose a 1v1 and trouble starts.

Zaha all he had to do is beat Ayling and gaps appear, Eze just had to beat Struijk etc.

Without doing us down the lessar teams in this league play how they do for a reason.

Because better teams and better players will expose you on the break easily.

With the greatest of respect we are still a team that relies on the team as a collective rather than great individuals.

No shame in that, we cant build a great Prem side overnight.

But we are trying to play a style that has been played before in this league by teams with more talent, cash etc.

Teams in this league are used to it from City for example.

We dont possess that level of class all over the pitch and we are getting picked off by dull but effective and experienced counter attacking sides.

Is it necessary to try and adapt especially against teams like Leicester, Wolves etc.

Teams who want you to do exactly what we do.

Go hell for leather?

I think what MB has done is phenomenonal but at this level we are looking like a bit of a soft touch.

Its ok vs a Man City, Liverpool, Fulham, teams who will engage us in a proper football match.

But many teams in this league wont and will use long balls to beat the press and then its an individual battle.

Unfortunately as a newly promoted side we havent had time to build the squad we ideally want yet.

The collective has always been our biggest strength but a simple long ball cancels out our biggest strength and once you do that because we go man for man you are more reliant on the individual.

This is a very long thread :lol:

Basically is BielsaBall to expansive in the Prem with the players we have agaimst teams who will sit back? Of which many exist in the EPL.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Fridge »

Hard to say whether the system is at fault.

In theory, if you have players good enough then the system will work.

Question is, do we have players good enough?


I was expecting Palace to sit back a lot more today and try to spring us on the counter as Wolves and Leicester did. They actually came at us a lot more than I thought they would, particularly in the first half.

I think what teams are learning is that we are really really easy to score against. I have to say I think that Ayling, Koch, Llorente, Dallas and Phillips will make a much better defensive unit than what we were working with today. Once everyone's fit, I think Cooper loses his spot. I think if we can take it back to basics then we can do well, even with our expansive system.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by andrewjohnsmith »

Cjay wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm When MB arrived there was a concern that the style may be exposed by not having the best individuals money can buy.

In the way the high pressing, attacking, man for man teams tend to be the exact opposite, bigger squads with tons of talent, Man City, Liverpool, Barca of the past etc.

They all had the best individuals money could buy for each specific role.

As a consequence they could pick there way through packed defences thanks to De Bruyne, Iniesta etc.

They could finish chances because they had properly clinical players like an Aguero.

But crucially they werent so easy to break on because they rarely gave the ball away and when they did they had top top level cbs and dms to cover the fast fullbacks who rarely got caught out anyway.

Was proven wrong in the Championship, we did very well and really were like a Man City or Barcelona in how we controlled the games.

But at this level where we come up against teams who have more talent individually who have played on the counter against the best in the league for years like Palace like Wolves like Leicester we are getting exposed.

Your well drilled but extensively lower league players are getting exposed for pace and positioning.

And because we go man for man all it takes is for one person to lose a 1v1 and trouble starts.

Zaha all he had to do is beat Ayling and gaps appear, Eze just had to beat Struijk etc.

Without doing us down the lessar teams in this league play how they do for a reason.

Because better teams and better players will expose you on the break easily.

With the greatest of respect we are still a team that relies on the team as a collective rather than great individuals.

No shame in that, we cant build a great Prem side overnight.

But we are trying to play a style that has been played before in this league by teams with more talent, cash etc.

Teams in this league are used to it from City for example.

We dont possess that level of class all over the pitch and we are getting picked off by dull but effective and experienced counter attacking sides.

Is it necessary to try and adapt especially against teams like Leicester, Wolves etc.

Teams who want you to do exactly what we do.

Go hell for leather?

I think what MB has done is phenomenonal but at this level we are looking like a bit of a soft touch.

Its ok vs a Man City, Liverpool, Fulham, teams who will engage us in a proper football match.

But many teams in this league wont and will use long balls to beat the press and then its an individual battle.

Unfortunately as a newly promoted side we havent had time to build the squad we ideally want yet.

The collective has always been our biggest strength but a simple long ball cancels out our biggest strength and once you do that because we go man for man you are more reliant on the individual.

This is a very long thread :lol:

Basically is BielsaBall to expansive in the Prem with the players we have agaimst teams who will sit back? Of which many exist in the EPL.
Agree with much of what you say. Basically, elite teams can sit back and soak up our pressure, then hit us on the break. We might have games with 20 chances to 7. But we lose because of the quality aspect. Elite teams make fewer mistakes in defense than we do and finish more clinically.

I'm not arguing against Bielsa's principles though. We just need the time to consolidate and develop our pieces. When we got promoted, I doubted whether 5 or 6 of our starters would be good enough. But I also realized that you can't sign 11 new players overnight. A team that includes Ayling, Dallas, Cooper, Strujik, Bamford probably won't get us into Europe. But they need to be part of the transition as we move forward. By the end of the season, we'll see Llorente, Rodrigo, and Raphinha fully integrated. And hopefully, our veterans will continue to develop and play a role. I can see that plus us adding 3 or 4 more next year of the same caliber (or better) that we signed this year.

Meanwhile, I'm happy for us to keep playing Bielsa ball.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Smudge3920 »

CJay ...yep its a long thread ... :lol: ...but a good one mate, it is difficult to comment without sounding critical,, I think you did a good job mate... what I took from it ( I also believe)...
1. MB put together a team that is a threat , with what we have.
2. We have, thanks to Radz ( and promotion) been able to add to that team.
3. You definately cannot build a premier level (Top 10) team overnight.

Patience is a big part of the process. Sadly we fans are notorious for lacking it at times.
Small squads will never survive in the prem, or should I say win anything... you have to have at least 2 available per position, adaptability is all good but unreliable for consitancy.

I said right from the get go ( I have been slated for it at times and being the sensitive soul I am , it is hard to take :cry: ) but 40 pts has to be the priority, ensure survival whilst building and adding where and when we can...

I still believe in MB...I still believe in Leeds United going forward...
Last edited by Smudge3920 on Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Leeds1000 »

Cjay wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 6:46 pm Basically is BielsaBall to expansive in the Prem with the players we have agaimst teams who will sit back? Of which many exist in the EPL.
Its all about the early goal for us. Drawing teams out to play is key for the way Bielsa sets his team up. Without Pablo, Phillips, Rodrigo and Raphina only just coming in, its a Championship side really. Still i take a little comfort in the fact that Leicester, Wolves and Palace are 3 teams who play that system really well. Just like the first season in the Championship i think Bielsa will be a lot stronger if we get another season in the Prem. Will he still be around?

I think fans (me included) have got a little carried away with our decent start, it was always going to be a slog. This league is unforgiving just ask Derby fans about the 2007/2008 season. A tleast we only need a point to match that.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by weasel »

I am concerned but not yet worried. We have arguably our 2 best players from last year, Phillips and Pablo out. We also are without White who had an outstanding year. As such probably our 3 best players from last year are missing and apart from Koch none of the new signings were fit to start. Take those 3 out last season and we struggled - I recall several posts detailing how our results were worse without KP or without Pablo so to have them both out is a big miss. White played every game and built up a good understanding but our results last season were worse when Pablo or KP didn't play. Dress stats up how you want and complain over small sample size etc but we struggled against championship sides last season without them so it is hardly a surprise if we struggle against premiership teams without them.

We just have to hope that KP and Pablo are back available soon and also all the new signings.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by gessa »

How come we get these long drawn out posts when we lose, analysing everything that is wrong.
We win and its a short yes but yes but we were lucky there.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Irish Ian »

Bielsas system relys on players being able to play multiple roles for the team, fluidity.

Last two seasons we got away with it because the players skillsets and the system combined to make us a winning side-- albiet at times we lost games because of wastefulness. But the way to beat us was there last time too. Deny space, find the gaps, hit is on the break.

Now that we face a higher skillset in this league. Our margins of error are far far less.

While I think this squad has enough to survive, If we are to thrive in this league and Bielsball is to succeed I cant see how many of our current crop will be here next season and beyond.

Our aims this time was to survive and be in a position to gradually strengthen the squad to make us into a strong Prem unit in no danger of relegation year on year.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Irish Ian »

gessa wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:52 pm How come we get these long drawn out posts when we lose, analysing everything that is wrong.
We win and its a short yes but yes but we were lucky there.
Where were you after the Villa game gessa?

We banged on about it for 10 days :lol:
'We can wait for the next game with serenity'

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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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gessa wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 7:52 pm How come we get these long drawn out posts when we lose, analysing everything that is wrong.
We win and its a short yes but yes but we were lucky there.
Dont think thats fair, when we win people are full of praise and rightfully so and talk about what we did well.

But things going wrong always provokes more conversation as its easier to debate.

If things go well it provokes large agreement, things going wrong provokes debate and discussion thats all.

People were full of praise for Liverpool and Man City but now we have issues to discuss?
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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Cjay wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:22 pm Dont think thats fair, when we win people are full of praise and rightfully so and talk about what we did well.

But things going wrong always provokes more conversation as its easier to debate.

If things go well it provokes large agreement, things going wrong provokes debate and discussion thats all.

People were full of praise for Liverpool and Man City but now we have issues to discuss?
I just think we go from one extreme to the other, seems like there's very little middle ground.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by weasel »

gessa wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:25 pm I just think we go from one extreme to the other, seems like there's very little middle ground.
Well said. I always look for postives in defeat and ways to improve when we win.

Against Villa we could have been 1 or 2 down before we scored. One of those chances go in and we probably don't win. Against Leicester the Bamford header goes in at 0-0 and we are 1-0 up instead of being 1-0 down less than a minute later. 1-0 up and maybe we go on to beat a Leicester side having to attack us.

Small margins.
Last edited by weasel on Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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weasel wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:01 pm Well said. I always look for postives in defeat and ways to improve when we win.
:tup:
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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gessa wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 8:25 pm I just think we go from one extreme to the other, seems like there's very little middle ground.
Didnt mean to be negative just felt now was the time to ask the question as we do seem to be struggling against similar sides same as the Championship.

Still fairly happy with our start but concerns are valid imo thats all.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by gessa »

Cjay wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:40 pm Didnt mean to be negative just felt now was the time to ask the question as we do seem to be struggling against similar sides same as the Championship.

Still fairly happy with our start but concerns are valid imo thats all.
I don't mean to knock you CJay, but you do seem to be more prolific when we lose. I believe this season is a big learning curve, for us all, we are not going to be challenging for the top 6, it's all about progression, we need to walk before we can run, we are all going to have to be more patient than we would like but that's how it is going to be, our style means we are going to have a roller coaster season.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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gessa wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:58 pm I don't mean to knock you CJay, but you do seem to be more prolific when we lose. I believe this season is a big learning curve, for us all, we are not going to be challenging for the top 6, it's all about progression, we need to walk before we can run, we are all going to have to be more patient than we would like but that's how it is going to be, our style means we are going to have a roller coaster season.
Not intentional Ges.

Just that if we lose tends to be more to discuss whereas if we win you can only go yep we did this well and everyone goes yep and thats the end.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by weasel »

I think it is the reality check in that this season the aim is simply to stay-up and anything else is a bonus. A lot of people got carried away after our good start but for the main parts we are still the same side that was capable of going on awful runs in the championship despite us looking brilliant at times and way too strong for the championship when we were playing at our best.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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Cjay wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:13 pm Not intentional Ges.

Just that if we lose tends to be more to discuss whereas if we win you can only go yep we did this well and everyone goes yep and thats the end.
Fair enough mate :tup:
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

Post by Boo Radley »

gessa wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 9:58 pm I don't mean to knock you CJay, but you do seem to be more prolific when we lose. I believe this season is a big learning curve, for us all, we are not going to be challenging for the top 6, it's all about progression, we need to walk before we can run, we are all going to have to be more patient than we would like but that's how it is going to be, our style means we are going to have a roller coaster season.
Not necessarily negative to have more to say when we lose. There is always more to discuss and that’s only natural.

When we win, well, we’ll have more of that, then put up your feet and enjoy the feeling.

When we lose there are concerns which will always draw comments. It will be the same within the squad and the management. It’s what stirs improvement as you analyse what went wrong and learn more in defeat.

Now I’ll list my concerns! I feel that we are becoming very predictable with no clear plan B. Now teams are pressing high and wide on us around midfield and this stops our full backs ranging forward, weakening our ability to overwhelm defences with numbers. Without a threat through the middle we get choked off too easily.

It is also ridiculous that we are still so utterly harmless on our corners. How many do not get past the first defender? Way too many. At this level you have to make the most of such opportunities but this hasn’t been addressed in two seasons now. This should not be a big deal to correct but we are still waiting.

Quality players returning will improve our performances but we still need to have tactical options to broaden our threat against most Premier League teams.
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Re: BielsaBall concern 2

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Boo Radley wrote: Sat Nov 07, 2020 10:54 pm Not necessarily negative to have more to say when we lose. There is always more to discuss and that’s only natural.

When we win, well, we’ll have more of that, then put up your feet and enjoy the feeling.

When we lose there are concerns which will always draw comments. It will be the same within the squad and the management. It’s what stirs improvement as you analyse what went wrong and learn more in defeat.

Now I’ll list my concerns! I feel that we are becoming very predictable with no clear plan B. Now teams are pressing high and wide on us around midfield and this stops our full backs ranging forward, weakening our ability to overwhelm defences with numbers. Without a threat through the middle we get choked off too easily.

It is also ridiculous that we are still so utterly harmless on our corners. How many do not get past the first defender? Way too many. At this level you have to make the most of such opportunities but this hasn’t been addressed in two seasons now. This should not be a big deal to correct but we are still waiting.

Quality players returning will improve our performances but we still need to have tactical options to broaden our threat against most Premier League teams.
Why should we discuss what we've done badly after a defeat, more than what we've done well after a win.

Is it just human nature?

Perhaps it's because I'm getting older and don't think we're world beaters when we've won a few games, or think that we're absolute shite when we've lost a few
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