Marcelo Bielsa.

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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

Post by weasel »

1964white wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 8:34 pm I'm not a hater whatsoever, I was so disappointed it all went pear-shape for Marcelo....those first three seasons were the most exciting & best football I've witnessed from a LUFC side in a very long time!
And at the first sign of trouble those good times counted for nothing.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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weasel wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:08 pm And at the first sign of trouble those good times counted for nothing.
That's stretching the facts a bit isn't it? We had seen multiple signs of trouble and were quickly sinking into the Championship when Bielsa was fired. It was far from a "first sign of trouble" decision.
In professional sports it is often the case that "what did you do for me this year" over rules "what I did for you last year".
You think Bielsa was badly treated. What about someone who achieved much more than Bielsa did?

From the BBC 23/02/2017

Manager Claudio Ranieri has been sacked by Leicester City, nine months after leading them to the Premier League title.
The Foxes are one point above the relegation zone with 13 matches left.
"The board reluctantly feels that a change of leadership, while admittedly painful, is necessary in the club's greatest interest," read a statement.
Ranieri, 65, guided the Foxes to the title despite them being rated 5,000-1 shots at the start of the campaign
.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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weasel wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 11:08 pm And at the first sign of trouble those good times counted for nothing.
But it wasn't the first sign of trouble when Marcelo was sacked at the end of February.

The problems dated back to the summer before a ball was kicked in anger.

Poor recruitment.
Dreadful pre-season.
Won our first game seven fixtures in by October.
Only won three games by the end of December. (v Watford, Norwich & Palace). Relegation form.
Injuries had kicked in & we didn't have adequate back-up to win football matches.
Non-existent recruitment in January when the writing was on the wall in the previous six months.
Not a single point vs the top six.
Lost the dressing room by February, as a consequence dropped our world-class player vs Scum.
Insisted on playing Dan james up top when it clearly wasn't working.
In our home game vs Brentford, Marcelo made four positional changes when only one was required,
we lost our way from a winning position as we were all over the shop defensively.

So, no it wasn't the first signs, even so I still admire the great man for what he achieved in his first three seasons at Leeds, those good times will never be forgotten. Marcelo was a good, kind man loved by all Leeds fans in the main.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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1964white wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 6:44 am But it wasn't the first sign of trouble when Marcelo was sacked at the end of February.

The problems dated back to the summer before a ball was kicked in anger.

Poor recruitment. Was this down to Bielsa though or a combination of Orta not being able to acquire players that Bielsa wanted? Isn't it something that you then learn from?

Dreadful pre-season. It was a dreadful pre-season but given that we had ended the previous season later than normal (due to the late start due to covid) it was a bit of a one-off situation where getting the balance right between giving the players enough of a break and getting them back to full fitness was a tricky situation. I felt we weren't at 100% at the start of the season and it took at least a couple of weeks to get there. Again something you can learn from. I remember as a young player (albeit Sunday League level) that one season we carried on playing throughout the summer so as to knit a team together and work on things. We started the season on fire but were burnt out midway through the season and dropped from top 2 to mid table. Given a more normal pre-season I would expect that normal service would have been resumed - after all in the first 3 seasons we had mixed results/performances in pre-season but started the season on fire - and in the 2nd and 3rd season we actually ended those seasons very strongly which suggests that we learnt from our first season where we seemed to run out of gas towards the end.


Won our first game seven fixtures in by October. Goes hand in hand with the previous answer.

Only won three games by the end of December. (v Watford, Norwich & Palace). Relegation form. It was poor but equally we weren't in the relegation zone and the key thing being that we were showing that we were better than relegation rivals.


Injuries had kicked in & we didn't have adequate back-up to win football matches. Goes back to the first answer. Is it Bielsa's fault that we didn't have limitless funds? Or was it Bielsa's greatness that had led to us getting so much out of the small squad previously? Again though, and I feel myself repeating myself, it is something to learn from and hopefully the board have.

Non-existent recruitment in January when the writing was on the wall in the previous six months. But again this comes down to recruitment rather than management. Which of the signings made by other clubs were successful? What did Dele Alli or Van Der Beek do for Everton? Not much. Did Wieghorst's 3 goals keep Burnley up? The only team to make signings that really helped them were Newcastle and Liverpool (and given Liverpool didn't win the League or European Cup it could be argued that they might have done better without their new signing despite him being a success).

Not a single point vs the top six. Just wow - that's really a reason to sack him? Conveniently forgetting that the same coach was unbeaten against the top 6 at home the previous season? You list the poor recrutiments and small squad as reasons to get rid of Bielsa but surely the previous results suggest that Bielsa, with more options, was able to get better results. As such doesn't it therefore mean that give Bielsa better options and he does better?

Lost the dressing room by February, as a consequence dropped our world-class player vs Scum. That's opinion not backed up by any real evidence. In Bielsa's last match in charge, v Spurs, we had more shots than Spurs did despite losing 4-0. That isn't a team not playing for the manager - a team doing that loses 4-0 and hardly has a shot. Yes Bielsa wasn't a hug a player type manager, just ask KP and Bamford, and he may be a bit brusque with players but that is also a strength as any manager has to know his own mind and work out the ways to improve without having a cluttered mind by everyone making suggestions. We all remember the photo of Bielsa after the QPR match when he looked so sad and so beaten. Did he have a big team meeting afterwards, did he discuss tactics with every Tom Dick and Harry or did he work it out on his own, show faith to his players and get the team winning again?


Insisted on playing Dan james up top when it clearly wasn't working. As opposed to what playing Tyler Roberts or playing Gelhardt who had back problems? It's like you ignore the actual facts. It wasn't like we had Harry Kane as an option. It is also the blinkered, somewhat limited view where people focus on one position and don't see how it equates to the whole plan. Similar to whan Bamford wasn't scoring some fans just see a striker not scoring rather than noticing how his whole game was a key component to the way the whole team was able to play. We'll never know how James would have developed under Bielsa, after all look at how well Bamford did in his second season under Bielsa (ignoring the first season as he didn't really play).


In our home game vs Brentford, Marcelo made four positional changes when only one was required,
we lost our way from a winning position as we were all over the shop defensively. I will give you that but it wasn't something that he hadn't done before. It is as though the change you would have made though would definitely have seen us do better though, the alwasy unproven my way would have worked argument.

So, no it wasn't the first signs, even so I still admire the great man for what he achieved in his first three seasons at Leeds, those good times will never be forgotten. Marcelo was a good, kind man loved by all Leeds fans in the main.
So for me most of the points you raise are actually down to poor recruitment and the problems created from that and the fact we got pre-season wrong in a unique covid shortened summer break. Yes we know Bielsa was very exacting when it came down to players coming in but isn't that then down to Orta to find players Bielsa does want? If Bielsa wanted O'Brien for example then shouldn't Bielsa have been backed and we find a solution to buying O'Brien - as shown we could have used another midfielder last season. People fixate on Bielsa's fixation with Dan James but in signing James Orta was simply signing a player who became available rather than having found other options during the rest of the summer.

So for me the points to really learn from were get recruitment better - learn the lessons and it looks like we have done - and plan pre-season better. which shouldn't be hard given a more normal situation (not as short as a covid affected pre-season. After that then it comes down to me as to could Bielsa do better if those problems are fixed and I would say wholeheartedly yes.

I am surprised you didn't mentione the defensive situation and themisunderstood man marking system. Again for me it boils down to better players, or less first teamers being out injured. Better players don't lose the ball as much leading to less situations where we are out of possession with players out of position.

Anyway he is gone now so let's refrain from continuing to throw a snippy comment in every few days.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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BobHirst wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:17 am That's stretching the facts a bit isn't it? We had seen multiple signs of trouble and were quickly sinking into the Championship when Bielsa was fired. It was far from a "first sign of trouble" decision.
In professional sports it is often the case that "what did you do for me this year" over rules "what I did for you last year".
You think Bielsa was badly treated. What about someone who achieved much more than Bielsa did?

From the BBC 23/02/2017

Manager Claudio Ranieri has been sacked by Leicester City, nine months after leading them to the Premier League title.
The Foxes are one point above the relegation zone with 13 matches left.
"The board reluctantly feels that a change of leadership, while admittedly painful, is necessary in the club's greatest interest," read a statement.
Ranieri, 65, guided the Foxes to the title despite them being rated 5,000-1 shots at the start of the campaign
.
The Ranieiri point is an interesting one. Similar really to how Wilko guided the team to winning the league 1 season to finishing 17th the following season with largely the same group of players. With Leeds under Wilko I felt the players gave so much in the title winning season that a lot were a spent force the next season and couldn't reach those levels again. Perhaps similar to Leicester where the whole emotional and physical side of winning the title took it out of them. You can also throw in the fact that to win the title you need a lot of things to go in your favour, not just luck or decisions going in your favour at key times but also not having key injuries, replacements slotting in seamlessly, no egos etc etc Sometimes the following season those things that didn't crop up the previous season do start cropping up.

In this day and age I reckon Wilko, similar to Ranieri, would have been sacked in the season after the title triumph. If Wilko had been sacked it would have been after overachieving massively, similar to how our 9th place finished last season probably saw our board, and fans, thinking the team was better than it was.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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:tup: :clap:
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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weasel wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:49 am In this day and age I reckon Wilko, similar to Ranieri, would have been sacked in the season after the title triumph.
Wilko would have been absolutely destroyed had social media been around. Think of the never ending analysis of selling Cantona and buying Rocastle, failing to buy a scorer even though our top scorer got 13 goals, flirting with relegation and ending up 2 points off the drop, failing to win away, failure to build on the success etc. etc.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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Kennyb41 wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 7:35 pm I appointed myself an Apostle?

Which month ?

God had lots and lots of reasons why the 4th term was going fair to middling.
Look up the definition in a dictionary. It fits.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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BobHirst wrote: Sun Jun 26, 2022 6:35 pm It's amusing how the self appointed Bielsa Apostles, Faaip, Kenny etc call people "Haters" for being realistic about the shambles the team was in, physically, mentally and league position, when Bielsa was fired.
No matter how much we praise the first 3 years we apparently are "haters" because we point out the reality of that 4th season.
The trouble with the analogy is that you cannot be a self appointed apostle. An apostle was chosen by Jesus Christ therefore to be a self appointed apostle you would have to actually be Jesus Christ yourself.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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BobHirst wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:29 pm Look up the definition in a dictionary. It fits.
I'll take your word for it Bobby and pass,

It's hard to argue with someone that just regurgitates the same reasons for sacking Bert, you embarrass yourself for not seeing the REAL reasons his football was faultering, even just repeating DJ was played up front embarrasses you and others....do you really think he wanted to,lol :roflmao:
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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weasel wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:39 am So for me most of the points you raise are actually down to poor recruitment and the problems created from that and the fact we got pre-season wrong in a unique covid shortened summer break. Yes we know Bielsa was very exacting when it came down to players coming in but isn't that then down to Orta to find players Bielsa does want? If Bielsa wanted O'Brien for example then shouldn't Bielsa have been backed and we find a solution to buying O'Brien - as shown we could have used another midfielder last season. People fixate on Bielsa's fixation with Dan James but in signing James Orta was simply signing a player who became available rather than having found other options during the rest of the summer.

So for me the points to really learn from were get recruitment better - learn the lessons and it looks like we have done - and plan pre-season better. which shouldn't be hard given a more normal situation (not as short as a covid affected pre-season. After that then it comes down to me as to could Bielsa do better if those problems are fixed and I would say wholeheartedly yes.

I am surprised you didn't mentione the defensive situation and themisunderstood man marking system. Again for me it boils down to better players, or less first teamers being out injured. Better players don't lose the ball as much leading to less situations where we are out of possession with players out of position.

Anyway he is gone now so let's refrain from continuing to throw a snippy comment in every few days.
You made the snippy comment, Weasel with your line "And at the first sign of trouble those good times counted for nothing"

I was only pointing out the reasons over a period of seven months for the departure of Marcelo & the mess we found ourselves in right through to the final day of the season. Thankfully we survived in the end :-D

To be fair, you made some valid points.

I didn't mention our defensive frailties as once again it was a recruitment issue, we lost Kalvin & although Forshaw did his best (bless his little cotton socks) we were woefully short in the middle of the park, rudderless without KP with no protection for our defence whatsoever!
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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How many times do people have to say “it’s time to move on” before we actually move on?

My god.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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weasel wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:46 pm The trouble with the analogy is that you cannot be a self appointed apostle. An apostle was chosen by Jesus Christ therefore to be a self appointed apostle you would have to actually be Jesus Christ yourself.
You are not entirely correct. If you are referring to religion then maybe yes but I am referring to a sacked football manager.
If you look up the word in the dictionary one of the non-religious definitions is
: an ardent supporter : ADHERENT
e.g. apostles of high technology

Using the term "Bielsa Apostle" in this context is correct and there is no connection to Jesus Christ.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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John in Louisiana wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:30 pm How many times do people have to say “it’s time to move on” before we actually move on?

My god.
I've moved on, John

I responded to two comments, one I didn't receive a reply, the other was an explicit response.

If folk throw grenades, I feel obliged to reply. :-D :lol: :sick:
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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Kennyb41 wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 1:49 pm I'll take your word for it Bobby and pass,

It's hard to argue with someone that just regurgitates the same reasons for sacking Bert, you embarrass yourself for not seeing the REAL reasons his football was faultering, even just repeating DJ was played up front embarrasses you and others....do you really think he wanted to,lol :roflmao:
:roll: to the first statement and where the hell did the DJ comment come from?
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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1964white wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:05 pm You made the snippy comment, Weasel with your line "And at the first sign of trouble those good times counted for nothing"

I was only pointing out the reasons over a period of seven months for the departure of Marcelo & the mess we found ourselves in right through to the final day of the season. Thankfully we survived in the end :-D

To be fair, you made some valid points.

I didn't mention our defensive frailties as once again it was a recruitment issue, we lost Kalvin & although Forshaw did his best (bless his little cotton socks) we were woefully short in the middle of the park, rudderless without KP with no protection for our defence whatsoever!
The snippy comments I was referring to were the ones made about Bielsa by yourself and others.

Glad we agree that the majority of the problems stemmed from the poor (or lack of) recrutiment and whilst Bielsa was a part of it it is telling that he always said about wanting players better than he had and as such it is Orta's job to find these players and if Bielsa doesn't rate an Orta suggestion then it is Orta's job to find players that Bielsa would rate.

An example would be O'Brien and what Bielsa could have done with him and how crucial he could have been last season if Bielsa had moulded him into the new KP then a lot of our defensive problems could have gone away (much like they had in nearly all the other games during Bielsa's reign when KP started). Bielsa himself had said that he didn't see Forshaw as a DM.

It is telling that no one saw the man marking system as an issue in the first 3 years. The way we look set to defend under JM is similarly not about getting into a zonal type formation when we lose possession. Under Bielsa we switched to man marking when we lost the ball to try to get the ball back quickly. Neither system of play lends itself to adopting a standard defensive formation when possession is lost - under Bielsa for example to get a left back back in position if he had just overlapped Harrison going forward is impractical as would trying to get the right back back in position cos he would have likely been nearly as far forward on the other wing - as such to become a more structured defensive team when we lost possesion we would have had to have not been anywhere near the same attacking team. Under JM we won't be rushing to get bak into position either but attempting to win the ball back quickly, attacking the player in possession en masse rather than picking up men. We will probably look more organised though as we won't be committing as manay players forward as did under Bielsa so it will be a case that some players press quickly en masse to get the ball back and others are in position.

Despite all that though having someone like KP holding back was a key part to us being stronger defensively as it forced the opposition wider. It effectively also meant that despite how many players had gone forward we had in effect a 3 man central defence still in place. KP could be slightly in front to eliminate danger comeing through the centre or if the opposition went wide then KP could drop into a CB positon allowing a CB to push accross into the full back position. As such despite a numerical disadvantage we could still usually defend effectively as we had those 3 in key positions.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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BobHirst wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:37 pm You are not entirely correct. If you are referring to religion then maybe yes but I am referring to a sacked football manager.
If you look up the word in the dictionary one of the non-religious definitions is
: an ardent supporter : ADHERENT
e.g. apostles of high technology

Using the term "Bielsa Apostle" in this context is correct and there is no connection to Jesus Christ.
Fair enough. i felt you were referring it as in the inference that people saw Bielsa as the Messiah, Kenny especially having refered to him as god.

Possibly a fanatic or ardent supporter would be the better description than apostle if you were not making it the suggestion as if those 'fans' saw Bielsa as a Messiah like figure.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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1964white wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:42 pm I've moved on, John

I responded to two comments, one I didn't receive a reply, the other was an explicit response.

If folk throw grenades, I feel obliged to reply. :-D :lol: :sick:
You are one that is regularly throwing the grenades. I simply point out that the situation that led to our poor season was down to a lot more than Bielsa.

Perhaps you should change If folk throw grenades, I feel obliged to reply. to when I throw grenades people shouldn't feel obliged to reply
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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John in Louisiana wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 3:30 pm How many times do people have to say “it’s time to move on” before we actually move on?

My god.
If it wasn't for the continued snippy insults towards our former manager then people wouldn't feel the need to reply. Or the fact that anyone who didn't want to see Bielsa leave cannot now say anything about JM without it seemingly not being allowed.
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Re: Marcelo Bielsa.

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Don't suppose any Bert outers that talk about lack of signings etc ever considered he might have got pissed off with the clowns buying.

I mean like, he did have to clear out a helluva lot of deadwood from day dot.

Now when he first arrived he probably knew nowt about the resident Clown and perhaps trusted him.

I wonder how long it took him to think ' fck me this guy hasn't a fcking clue'

Could it have been when he started throwing out the garbage in his first term, and then thought ' fck me i'll have to stop somewhere or there's gonna be no one left to work with.

Could it have been when Corky went spending again on one of his sprees and put them outside Berts door.

Did Bert finally think ' If i don't stop this guy we're gonna be stoney broke'
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