Genius vs Evil

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Cjay
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Genius vs Evil

Post by Cjay »

I have not watched the new documentary on Michael Jackson, i may never watch it although i have it recorded.

Im a fan of his music, always have been, i know he wasn't "normal", a bit weird to say the least, not entirely his fault probably but even so yes, a bit strange at the very least.

However, what this documentary alleges is far worse then being a bit odd, if true its evil and horrific and would change how the world looks at the legacy of one of the biggest names in music history.

But (again i havent watched the documentary) if it is just allegations, unless there is real hard evidence shouldn't it mean Jackson is treated as an innocent man?

His music still gets played and what not?

History is full of famous people who we know were far from angels.

John Lennon was physically abusive to his wife and son.

Charlie Chaplin was a pedophile and sexually depraved according to divorce papers from the 1920s.

Roman Polanski was given an Oscar in 2003, he was convicted and admitted raping a child in the 1970s.

List goes on of people who are basically god like figures now but who we know for a fact were very far from that.

So unless there is hard evidence of what Jackson did (allegedly) isnt it wrong and hypocritical to judge him in death?
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Sara »

I don't think him being dead or famous has any bearing on how he should be judged. If he molested children, then the harm caused to their lives totally outweighs any concern for Jackson's reputation. It is far better for the victims that the truth be told.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Ellandback1 »

Well said Cjay, unfortunately mud sticks, and the general public as individuals are scared to stick up for someone like Jackson, afraid that they will be labelled as protecting sexual predators!
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Re: Genius vs Evil

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SaraM wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:16 pm I don't think him being dead or famous has any bearing on how he should be judged. If he molested children, then the harm caused to their lives totally outweighs any concern for Jackson's reputation. It is far better for the victims that the truth be told.
If, yes if, thats the key bit here for me.

If he did he should be erased from history and never spoken of again like Gary Glitter, Jimmy Saville etc.

But unless hard evidence exists, undeniable proof not just rumours and allegations, real hard evidence, without that isnt it wrong for society to judge him ?

He still has kids walking the earth, kids who havent a bad word to say about him.

Its unfair to judge those childrens father and stigmatise them as the children of a sexual predator unless its absolutely certain?
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Re: Genius vs Evil

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Ellandback1 wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:18 pm Well said Cjay, unfortunately mud sticks, and the general public as individuals are scared to stick up for someone like Jackson, afraid that they will be labelled as protecting sexual predators!
I just think its wrong to judge anyone celebrity or not unless its certain.

Society hasnt had a problem ignoring the flaws of people we know for a fact are guilty before.

Why are people so keen to judge someone who may not be? :duno:

Bring up John Lennon and people fall over themselves to tell you how great he was.

Nobody goes "Ah yes, that abusive twat".
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Irish Ian »

Wether Jackson was a child molester or not will never be truthfully established.

What us known is that he as grown man liked to have young children sleep in his bed. Children unattended by their patents, left alone with him time and time again.

This is a fact.

Legal? Maybe. Moral? You decide.

Some excuse this behaviour as weirdness, I heard someone from the UK branch of his fan club on the radio the other day try and claim that he did that to somehow absorb some of the “children’s creative energy.”

But here is my point. If joe public behaved that way towards youngsters I don’t think many of us would be bending over backwards to make excuses for them as is the case with MJ.

If he ran the local chippy would you eat there? Played footie for your fav team would you want changes made? Etc.

Because he was very rich and could to a degree control the narrative he was protected.

The man was dangerous to be around However if you can draw the line in your mind between the art and the artist then that is up to you.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by leic white 63 »

he did it seems have children in bed with him .
in my eyes he was a nonce and a wrong un.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

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Irish Ian wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:22 pm Wether Jackson was a child molester or not will never be truthfully established.

What us known is that he as grown man liked to have young children sleep in his bed. Children unattended by their patents, left alone with him time and time again.

This is a fact.

Legal? Maybe. Moral? You decide.

Some excuse this behaviour as weirdness, I heard someone from the UK branch of his fan club on the radio the other day try and claim that he did that to somehow absorb some of the “children’s creative energy.”

But here is my point. If joe public behaved that way towards youngsters I don’t think many of us would be bending over backwards to make excuses for them as is the case with MJ.

If he ran the local chippy would you eat there? Played footie for your fav team would you want changes made? Etc.

Because he was very rich and could to a degree control the narrative he was protected.

The man was dangerous to be around However if you can draw the line in your mind between the art and the artist then that is up to you.
Its extremely odd but its not a crime.

Do you enjoy Woody Allen films ?

Marvin Gaye? Fathered a child with a 15 year old girl.

Jerry Lee Lewis, married his 13 year old cousin, still had a successful career

Jackson was very odd but thats not a crime, 2 of the men above are 100% guilty of crimes yet Marvin Gaye for example, never ever mentioned anymore.

If someone is guilty then absolutely they deserve what happens, if no proof exists though?

As one final point, maybe one of the only people in music history more famous then Jackson was Elvis.

He met Priscilla when she was 14, she moved in with him when she was 17.

There are tons of accounts of Elvis having an unhealthy obsession with underage girls

A mother catching him "kissing her 14 year old daughter in a grown up way and asking to take her to a bar".

Elvis according to numerous accounts was what would be called now a pedophile and even back then was illegal.

Nobody mentions this either, why not ?
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Sara »

Cjay wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 2:41 pm I just think its wrong to judge anyone celebrity or not unless its certain.

Society hasnt had a problem ignoring the flaws of people we know for a fact are guilty before.

Why are people so keen to judge someone who may not be? :duno:

Bring up John Lennon and people fall over themselves to tell you how great he was.

Nobody goes "Ah yes, that abusive twat".
The trouble is with abuse cases, rape etc, they are notoriously difficult to prove. The process of trying to be believed, and the whole thing being gone over, also causes further trauma for the victims, which is why so few pursue it. As the criminal justice system currently stands, it is heavily weighted in favour of the perpetrator, especially when that person has money and power.

Jackson's behaviour around children was definitely unacceptable, whatever else he may or may not have done. There is no one to blame for the speculation there apart from himself, so I find it difficult to sympathise. And yes, I do think of John Lennon as an abusive twat too!
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by dezzy »

Watch the documentary. It will make your blood run cold. Im not one to jump to conclusions and you have to remember this documentary is one sided in Favor of guilt.
He was infatuated with the two boys, obsessive in his need to be with them, the rest you have to draw your own conclusions...
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by weasel »

Without going into the right and wrongs in regards to the more serious issues he has been accused of I would say that because of the amount of money he made as a child MJ never really lived an adult life. He wouldn't have gone out to a shop on his own, wouldn't have known what anything cost. Likely his life consisted of playing concerts and then a home life where he would have existed almost as a child, likely playing video games and simply passing his whole time playing games, riding amusement rides at his home etc. Meals would have been brought to him, everything would have been done for him.

As such did he ever really develop into an adult, he certainly had no adult responsibilities and as such it may well have seemed to him perfectly normal to spend loads of times with children, who would be wanting, and able, to spend time doing the same things as him, playing video games etc As such in terms of him having children around him and in his bed it may be that we aren't really able to judge him in the same way as we would judge it if it were a normal adult.

Both of the guys being interviewed came across as very shifty to me especially the way they kept looking at each other when coming up with new stuff or when backing each other up almost like they were re-assuring each other that this is what they had agreed to say.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by John in Louisiana »

Warning: VERY non-PC.

Went to see Joan Rivers perform a few years back (a very famous comedienne here in the States who passed away a couple of years ago).

She knew Michael Jackson pretty well, and of him she said, "A wonderful boy, but oy! What a pedophile!"

When the audience gasped, she said, "No! You don't understand! Do you know what he settled on that one family? Over $15 million! If I had known that, I'd have sent Melissa (her daughter) over years ago."

After the audience gasped a little more, Rivers concluded by saying, "Look. Therapy is ten, maybe twenty years, tops. Fifteen million is forever."
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Irish Ian »

Cjay wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:49 pm Its extremely odd but its not a crime.

Do you enjoy Woody Allen films ?

Marvin Gaye? Fathered a child with a 15 year old girl.

Jerry Lee Lewis, married his 13 year old cousin, still had a successful career

Jackson was very odd but thats not a crime, 2 of the men above are 100% guilty of crimes yet Marvin Gaye for example, never ever mentioned anymore.

If someone is guilty then absolutely they deserve what happens, if no proof exists though?

As one final point, maybe one of the only people in music history more famous then Jackson was Elvis.

He met Priscilla when she was 14, she moved in with him when she was 17.

There are tons of accounts of Elvis having an unhealthy obsession with underage girls

A mother catching him "kissing her 14 year old daughter in a grown up way and asking to take her to a bar".

Elvis according to numerous accounts was what would be called now a pedophile and even back then was illegal.

Nobody mentions this either, why not ?

Sorry but just because something isn't a crime doesnt make it wrong. My moral compass isn't guided by legalese.

Children need to be protected.

If those people you mentioned are guilty of crimes against children I wouldn't lose any sleep if they were disgraced.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

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Irish Ian wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 5:30 pm Sorry but just because something isn't a crime doesnt make it wrong. My moral compass isn't guided by legalese.

Children need to be protected.

If those people you mentioned are guilty of crimes against children I wouldn't lose any sleep if they were disgraced.
Indeed they should, and people have the right to be treated as innocent until guilt is proven.

They wont be disgraced, it isnt even mentioned at all even though its public record, the Elvis stuff incidentally is similar to Jackson, rumours, but there are more accounts of it, a lot more.

Dont think he is being treated fairly, thats all, my main point really, if he is guilty of what they say then fair enough.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

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SaraM wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 3:57 pm The trouble is with abuse cases, rape etc, they are notoriously difficult to prove. The process of trying to be believed, and the whole thing being gone over, also causes further trauma for the victims, which is why so few pursue it. As the criminal justice system currently stands, it is heavily weighted in favour of the perpetrator, especially when that person has money and power.

Jackson's behaviour around children was definitely unacceptable, whatever else he may or may not have done. There is no one to blame for the speculation there apart from himself, so I find it difficult to sympathise. And yes, I do think of John Lennon as an abusive twat too!
Yeah id agree with that, strange, unacceptable, weird, but doesnt make him a pedophile which is far more serious.

I would be questioning the parents to, surely there is some sort of Child neglect in there somewhere?

Who leaves there kids with a man they barely know because they are getting money and what not?
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Chilli D »

I watched some of it but the accounts of what allegedly took place turned my stomach so I turned it off.
But the man isn't here to defend himself and there is no concrete proof so I'm not sure what the point of the program was.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by HarryofOz »

It also works the other way around. Where people who happen to be talented in some field will have their supporters who will never accept that they could do any wrong, or put it down to artistic temperament as an excuse.
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by becchio bear »

I'm like cjay in that I haven't watched the programme and unsure as to whether I will or not. I am however uncomfortable in people waiting for someone to die before accusing them of something. They aren't around to defend themselves. Yes, he was eccentric, yes he admits to "sharing" a bed with the kids (not something I would condone) but there was a court case some years ago, the FBI have investigated him thoroughly and he was found not guilty. Those same people testified to say he was innocent and now he's dead and his Estate is now worth millions they come crawling out of the woodwork. I find the whole trial by media thing very distasteful tbh. :bear:
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by dezzy »

Finished watching the first part. It might just be it’s over edited and rehearsed but they seem too laid back telling the story, but it’s pretty daming, can this be investigated?
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Re: Genius vs Evil

Post by Genghers »

weasel wrote: Fri Mar 08, 2019 4:17 pm Both of the guys being interviewed came across as very shifty to me especially the way they kept looking at each other when coming up with new stuff or when backing each other up almost like they were re-assuring each other that this is what they had agreed to say.
... Except they weren't interviewed together?? Don't know how you got that impression! I think it was cut in such a way that showed the similarities in the predatory behaviour exhibited towards them when they were children.

It was very uncomfortable watching - you can see how difficult it is for them to talk about many of the details that they did, and I don't think there is any doubt about the negative impact that their relationship with Michael Jackson has had on their mental states.
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