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Cjay
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Devils Advocate

Post by Cjay » Fri May 24, 2019 4:51 pm

Tin hat on.

We all love Bielsa.

We all want him to stay.

We all hope whatever demands he has the club accept them.

And we all hope thay should that happen we will make a real tilt at Automatic.

Are we all wrong?

Marcelo Bielsa has been a godsend, he worked minor miracles with what imo was a midtable squad (i expected us to finish somewhere around 10th).

Ultimately imo, no matter how good the coach is their will be limits, coaching can only go so far and effort only will get you so far, in the end it may be that natural talent if lacking may decide the outcome.

Bielsa said as much in a round about way ( the players have fixed their limitations with effort) words to that effect.

So, MB is very fixed in his beliefs, he tweaks it marginally but really its the same style, attack and press etc.

The problem as we discovered and as you will see if you watch Man City, Barcelona, any side that takes inspiration from Bielsa, the problem is very quickly teams work out that they have to condense the space, stay narrow, rigid, tight, drop deep and try and frustrate and look for breaks.

This forces the side attacking to do one of few things. 1) Pass side to side, try and move the defence around and then speed it up and try quick passing moves to exploit any space. 2) Get it wide, try and get an overload in the wide areas and cross 3) Clever striking movement and eye of the needle passes.

The issue here is very apparent, we dont have Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez, Sergio Aguero, David Silva, Kevin De Bruyne.

We dont have the players who are talented enough to break down packed defences with great movement and passes.

Dont get me wrong we do our best but the best a group of Championsip players can do isn't always enough.

The reason Jack Clarke made the impact he did originally is he was someone who could, he was different, he would look to beat the defender and get behind them, that really made a difference because that causes uncertainty and forces a chain of events that creates space.

But once teams work out how to trouble you you have to adapt or a change of player, something different.

Problem 1) Bielsa wont adapt, he will stick with his style and thats that.

Its also a fact that MB when he has stayed for a 2nd season he has largely done worse then the first.

Problem 2) We cant afford the top players the top teams have that make this style work at its best, furthermore we cant or wont even buy the top players in this league who would be able to help and maybe give us that bit of extra talent individually and that bit of an X-Factor that we lack offensively imo.

Problem 3) We are very proud of our u23s, but its a huge step up. It wasnt that long ago Paudie O'Connor, Tyler Denton, Oriol Rey, Alex Machuca and others were going to break in to the first team.and be stars, well that didnt happen and its become quite apparent that Championship football is probably well above them. No guarantees our u23s are good enough.

MB did brilliantly, but the element of surprise is gone, every side we play next season will know how we play and the best way to try and stop.it.

MB isn't infallible, he is very rigid and stubborn and history shows us that once teams work his team out he hasnt often been able to correct it (largely imo because he is playing an elite level style of football with sub standard players relatively speaking).

Its no coincidence that the sides that make BielsaBall work the best are the best sides with the best budgets who can get the pick of the player they want for any role rather then having to shoehorn a winger at right back for example.

This has turned into a very long thread, sorry :lol:

What I'm asking is as history does suggest.

1) Now sides have seen us under Bielsa and.given Bielsa isnt going to change isnt there a danger that we maybe building up for a fall? Expectations are sky high if MB stays but with that comes the very real possibility unless MB adapts then like at his previous clubs we may quickly discover that MB for all the good he does is actually pretty easy to defend against (individual talent in the playing squad plays a part here to) and results suffer 2nd season

2) If we dont get 2 or 3 players in (its vital imo, absolutely vital we get in 2 or 3 top class attacking players for this level in order to help us break down packed defences). But if we don't is there not a good chance of deja vu? Same old same same.old (assuming MB wont adapt).

We all want MB to stay, he worked wonders but i have a niggly doubt, the same doubt i had when he arrived having read about him, the doubt being that he is to inflexible and the style is to good for Championship players for it to be successful long term (as the season goes on and sides work you.out) and our results did indeed dip as the season went on.

So playing devils advocate, if MB stays is there not a very large chance we may go backwards?

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by leic white 63 » Fri May 24, 2019 5:12 pm

it will be what it will be , no guarantees in football ......

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by hector » Fri May 24, 2019 5:20 pm

leic white 63 wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 5:12 pm
it will be what it will be , no guarantees in football ......
That's a bit fili...... filli...... fyllis ... deep mate :)
:tup: “There comes a time in every mans life when he must do what he must do :wink:

So I tell the wife when she tells me to get off my arse and do some work. :(

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by leic white 63 » Fri May 24, 2019 5:41 pm

hector wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 5:20 pm
That's a bit fili...... filli...... fyllis ... deep mate :)
:)

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by leic white 63 » Fri May 24, 2019 5:44 pm

if we're mid table around christmas than he can f**k off :)

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by weasel » Fri May 24, 2019 6:08 pm

1) Saying teams worked us out is very much wide of the mark. Even when losing we were creating, and missing 20+ chances so teams weren't stopping us creating chances. Additionally we were f*cking up at the back and gifting the opposition goals so again we weren't losing due to opposition tactics, just our own incompetence. Plan A,B,C etc doesn't make any difference if you waste the chances you have to score and gift the opposition goals. Another no mark want to be pundit, Chris Iwelumi, was spouting the same crap today and making out that Lampard outwitted Biesla tactically because Bielsa doesn't have Plan B or C. Erm nope Chris we lost because we self destructed - up until that point Derby hadn't had a shot on target and we were leading by 2 goals.

2) Definitely we do need either people to create better chances or people that are betting at taking chances. Bielsa knows this and hopefully we will get those players in. You yourself have mentioned that boards have failed to get in players that Bielsa wanted. That then isn't a coincidence that the team then does worse. Bielsa has identified what the team needs to do to improve and if the boards had listened to him and got the layers he wanted then probably the second seasons would have been better. Maybe he has been a victim of his own success too often and chairman think because he has worked miracles he can continue working miracles and they haven't backed him. Like he has already mentioned you can't keep getting the maximum out of players, if something isn't quite enough then you need a better player(s). The dip for me was far more down to the injury to Roofe and Bamford never being fully fit. Derby had all season to work us out yet they were outplayed in our 3rd meeting.
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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by WhiteRose » Fri May 24, 2019 6:43 pm

I alluded to a similar point to cjay earlier today on a different thread but as others have said I'm not sure what alternate plan we could put in to action. if teams are sitting in deep it's not a different plan we need but more quality. I look at the Wigan game as a perfect example of where a team with obvious limitations have found the best game plan to use against us.

Generally I think the way we play is effective but we are often far too slow in our build up which lets teams find their shape again. We badly need some pace in our attack, Pablo, Harrison, Bamford,roofe,klich and roberts etc are all fairly slow. Had we signed daniel James we would of addressed this issue to some degree and I think it would have been enough to win the league.

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by Newport white » Fri May 24, 2019 6:47 pm

Cjay wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 4:51 pm
Tin hat on.

We all love Bielsa.

We all want him to stay.

We all hope whatever demands he has the club accept them.

And we all hope thay should that happen we will make a real tilt at Automatic.

Are we all wrong?

Marcelo Bielsa has been a godsend, he worked minor miracles with what imo was a midtable squad (i expected us to finish somewhere around 10th).

Ultimately imo, no matter how good the coach is their will be limits, coaching can only go so far and effort only will get you so far, in the end it may be that natural talent if lacking may decide the outcome.

Bielsa said as much in a round about way ( the players have fixed their limitations with effort) words to that effect.

So, MB is very fixed in his beliefs, he tweaks it marginally but really its the same style, attack and press etc.

The problem as we discovered and as you will see if you watch Man City, Barcelona, any side that takes inspiration from Bielsa, the problem is very quickly teams work out that they have to condense the space, stay narrow, rigid, tight, drop deep and try and frustrate and look for breaks.

This forces the side attacking to do one of few things. 1) Pass side to side, try and move the defence around and then speed it up and try quick passing moves to exploit any space. 2) Get it wide, try and get an overload in the wide areas and cross 3) Clever striking movement and eye of the needle passes.

The issue here is very apparent, we dont have Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez, Sergio Aguero, David Silva, Kevin De Bruyne.

We dont have the players who are talented enough to break down packed defences with great movement and passes.

Dont get me wrong we do our best but the best a group of Championsip players can do isn't always enough.

The reason Jack Clarke made the impact he did originally is he was someone who could, he was different, he would look to beat the defender and get behind them, that really made a difference because that causes uncertainty and forces a chain of events that creates space.

But once teams work out how to trouble you you have to adapt or a change of player, something different.

Problem 1) Bielsa wont adapt, he will stick with his style and thats that.

Its also a fact that MB when he has stayed for a 2nd season he has largely done worse then the first.

Problem 2) We cant afford the top players the top teams have that make this style work at its best, furthermore we cant or wont even buy the top players in this league who would be able to help and maybe give us that bit of extra talent individually and that bit of an X-Factor that we lack offensively imo.

Problem 3) We are very proud of our u23s, but its a huge step up. It wasnt that long ago Paudie O'Connor, Tyler Denton, Oriol Rey, Alex Machuca and others were going to break in to the first team.and be stars, well that didnt happen and its become quite apparent that Championship football is probably well above them. No guarantees our u23s are good enough.

MB did brilliantly, but the element of surprise is gone, every side we play next season will know how we play and the best way to try and stop.it.

MB isn't infallible, he is very rigid and stubborn and history shows us that once teams work his team out he hasnt often been able to correct it (largely imo because he is playing an elite level style of football with sub standard players relatively speaking).

Its no coincidence that the sides that make BielsaBall work the best are the best sides with the best budgets who can get the pick of the player they want for any role rather then having to shoehorn a winger at right back for example.

This has turned into a very long thread, sorry :lol:

What I'm asking is as history does suggest.

1) Now sides have seen us under Bielsa and.given Bielsa isnt going to change isnt there a danger that we maybe building up for a fall? Expectations are sky high if MB stays but with that comes the very real possibility unless MB adapts then like at his previous clubs we may quickly discover that MB for all the good he does is actually pretty easy to defend against (individual talent in the playing squad plays a part here to) and results suffer 2nd season

2) If we dont get 2 or 3 players in (its vital imo, absolutely vital we get in 2 or 3 top class attacking players for this level in order to help us break down packed defences). But if we don't is there not a good chance of deja vu? Same old same same.old (assuming MB wont adapt).

We all want MB to stay, he worked wonders but i have a niggly doubt, the same doubt i had when he arrived having read about him, the doubt being that he is to inflexible and the style is to good for Championship players for it to be successful long term (as the season goes on and sides work you.out) and our results did indeed dip as the season went on.

So playing devils advocate, if MB stays is there not a very large chance we may go backwards?
Teams may have “worked us out “ to a certain extent as you say but we still created plenty of chances which suggests to me that even though they may have “worked us out “ they couldn’t stop us dominating and creating good goal scoring chances, as has been said many times if we had a 25/30 goal scoring striker on our books we would be in the premiership already

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by weasel » Fri May 24, 2019 7:24 pm

WhiteRose wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:43 pm
I look at the Wigan game as a perfect example of where a team with obvious limitations have found the best game plan to use against us.
Even that match we should have won. 1-0 up against 10 men we could have sat back and taken the win. For me Wigan didn't beat us we just lost the plot, a big crowd, promotion in our hands and at 1-0 up v 10 men the feeling seemed to be let's boost the goal difference just in case it comes down to that. The players seemed to think they could stroll to a 6-0 win. How on earth can you get caught out on the break against 10 men? It just defies any logic because you don't need to put extra men up because you already have the player advantage - so you keep 2-1 against them at the back. Yes try to add to the lead but don't risk losing the lead. . Wigan didn't beat us we beat ourselves and then at 2-1 down it was just a mass panic, they stopped playing the Bielsa way - so we actually left Plan A and played god knows what. I certainly doubt Bielsa told them to play in a different way.
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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by Cjay » Fri May 24, 2019 9:02 pm

weasel wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:08 pm
1) Saying teams worked us out is very much wide of the mark. Even when losing we were creating, and missing 20+ chances so teams weren't stopping us creating chances. Additionally we were f*cking up at the back and gifting the opposition goals so again we weren't losing due to opposition tactics, just our own incompetence. Plan A,B,C etc doesn't make any difference if you waste the chances you have to score and gift the opposition goals. Another no mark want to be pundit, Chris Iwelumi, was spouting the same crap today and making out that Lampard outwitted Biesla tactically because Bielsa doesn't have Plan B or C. Erm nope Chris we lost because we self destructed - up until that point Derby hadn't had a shot on target and we were leading by 2 goals.

2) Definitely we do need either people to create better chances or people that are betting at taking chances. Bielsa knows this and hopefully we will get those players in. You yourself have mentioned that boards have failed to get in players that Bielsa wanted. That then isn't a coincidence that the team then does worse. Bielsa has identified what the team needs to do to improve and if the boards had listened to him and got the layers he wanted then probably the second seasons would have been better. Maybe he has been a victim of his own success too often and chairman think because he has worked miracles he can continue working miracles and they haven't backed him. Like he has already mentioned you can't keep getting the maximum out of players, if something isn't quite enough then you need a better player(s). The dip for me was far more down to the injury to Roofe and Bamford never being fully fit. Derby had all season to work us out yet they were outplayed in our 3rd meeting.
Since i am playing devils advocate here.

1) I've made this point myself with regards to our poor finishing and pointed out xG stats and what not. The flip side is that yes we missed a lot of chances at times but for all these chances how many were what you'd call clear chances as opposed to half chances? After all you can have 20 shots from 30 yards and stats will tell you that we dominated but highlights will show maybe that the opposition had 1 or 2 far better chances. I do feel and not just saying this for the sake of keeping this thread going but i do feel at times we were very easy to defend against. Stoke comes to mind 2nd game, Bolton when Bamford came back and scored from.the bench, there are others. For all i do think we have been the architects of our own downfall more often then not i do think that defending against us if you get your tactics right was to easy but was that down to MBs tactics or was it down to what players he had to use?

2) Absolutely yes i think the board took Bielsa for granted if anything, a sort of "well he can improve them no need to really aim for the stars recruitment wise". Of course paragraph 1 can perhaps be easily countered with well we just need to buy a few better players. I dont blame Bielsa as such as i think the board basically handicapped him all season and probably the same at other clubs (where would Marseille have been if they hadnt sold key stars and had gotten in Kante and Gueye). But as Bielsa has said and you say, he cant get 100% out of every player all the time and that for me was the issue we had, we were greater then the sum of our parts, if everything is working at a maximum then we were great, but all it took was 1 or 2 players to be less then that and poof we faded. Unfortunately Championship players have Championship limitations and individual errors are a killer in MBs style, 1 player doesnt press at the right time or does at the wrong time and it all goes to bits sort of thing.

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by Cjay » Fri May 24, 2019 9:15 pm

WhiteRose wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:43 pm
I alluded to a similar point to cjay earlier today on a different thread but as others have said I'm not sure what alternate plan we could put in to action. if teams are sitting in deep it's not a different plan we need but more quality. I look at the Wigan game as a perfect example of where a team with obvious limitations have found the best game plan to use against us.

Generally I think the way we play is effective but we are often far too slow in our build up which lets teams find their shape again. We badly need some pace in our attack, Pablo, Harrison, Bamford,roofe,klich and roberts etc are all fairly slow. Had we signed daniel James we would of addressed this issue to some degree and I think it would have been enough to win the league.
Hi WhiteRose :wave:

Here is a quandary for you.

MB's style by its very design is a risk, it is mentally very tiring never mind physically. Physically speaking its tiring because of the need for perpetual motion out of possession, as you say we were often to slow to move the ball. Was that because our players were to physically and perhaps they were to mentally tired to remain in motion out of possession? By that i mean to move the ball quickly the man in possession has to have options at all times, that requires great awareness, awareness of where you can.move to to receive the ball, awareness to remember that you do have a job defensively in some cases.

Quite often we got caught out, Championship players playing a style above there level will make more mistakes in and out of possession, Cooper not understanding the role of a sweeper keeper and ending up tackling him, Jansson pressing the man but forgetting the huge gap behind him vs Brentford, Ayling going on a run and then looking like little boy lost when near the opposition box and losing the ball thus leaving a huge gap down the right.

Does Bielsa need to tweak the style to reflect the natural limitations of his squad?

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by Cjay » Fri May 24, 2019 9:24 pm

Newport white wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 6:47 pm
Teams may have “worked us out “ to a certain extent as you say but we still created plenty of chances which suggests to me that even though they may have “worked us out “ they couldn’t stop us dominating and creating good goal scoring chances, as has been said many times if we had a 25/30 goal scoring striker on our books we would be in the premiership already
Perhaps mate although personally i dont think that would have been enough, think we needed more class in other areas to, out wide for example.

But given Radz isnt going to fund much without weakening the squad first isnt there a risk the sales may create another issue while the buys may fix one? 1 step forward 2 steps back sort of thing?

Dominating is relative though to how many good chances we create vs how many we concede, 60% possession, 25 shots sounds good but what if 24 of those shots were half chances while the opposition because of our own limitations had 2 clear cut ones?

We are so open out of possession at times which is natural for any side that plays MBs style, but the difference is we make more mistakes then the best because of our own limitations which goes back to the other question.

Is playing MB's style to risky without the best calibre of players?

If we were able to buy MBs ideal players then we'd probably walk the league, Vydra, James etc.

But we cant/wont and didnt.

If Radz wont back MB properly then isnt that setting MB up to fail? Its not an easy style of play we play, if you force the manager to use unsuited players then that makes it all the more risky.

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by Irish Ian » Fri May 24, 2019 9:51 pm

Cjay you posted my very thoughts ( though far more eloquently than I would have put it) I have been fretting about posting a similar subject since last Monday when I did my season review via YouTube.

I'll write more later but really the question for me is Bielsaball viable in the Championship.??

My dark night of the soul suggests not..

Interesting to se what others are thinking....
"We can wait for the next game with serenity"

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by weasel » Fri May 24, 2019 9:54 pm

Cjay wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:02 pm
Since i am playing devils advocate here.

1) I've made this point myself with regards to our poor finishing and pointed out xG stats and what not. The flip side is that yes we missed a lot of chances at times but for all these chances how many were what you'd call clear chances as opposed to half chances? After all you can have 20 shots from 30 yards and stats will tell you that we dominated but highlights will show maybe that the opposition had 1 or 2 far better chances. I do feel and not just saying this for the sake of keeping this thread going but i do feel at times we were very easy to defend against. Stoke comes to mind 2nd game, Bolton when Bamford came back and scored from.the bench, there are others. For all i do think we have been the architects of our own downfall more often then not i do think that defending against us if you get your tactics right was to easy but was that down to MBs tactics or was it down to what players he had to use?

2) Absolutely yes i think the board took Bielsa for granted if anything, a sort of "well he can improve them no need to really aim for the stars recruitment wise". Of course paragraph 1 can perhaps be easily countered with well we just need to buy a few better players. I dont blame Bielsa as such as i think the board basically handicapped him all season and probably the same at other clubs (where would Marseille have been if they hadnt sold key stars and had gotten in Kante and Gueye). But as Bielsa has said and you say, he cant get 100% out of every player all the time and that for me was the issue we had, we were greater then the sum of our parts, if everything is working at a maximum then we were great, but all it took was 1 or 2 players to be less then that and poof we faded. Unfortunately Championship players have Championship limitations and individual errors are a killer in MBs style, 1 player doesnt press at the right time or does at the wrong time and it all goes to bits sort of thing.
Isn't the XG stat thing all about expected goals? So if we were 10 goals below that it means we have missed 10 chances that should have been goals therefore we are creating decent enough chances rather than just hit and hopes. I think we were further behind the expected goals than 10. When we also gift chances to the opposition like the one presented to Derby then it is no surprise they are scored, we may as well have just done what we did against Villa. Man City have had some games where they took 25+ chances to score just 1 goal. Sometimes you can just miss chances, the opposition keeper can have a great game etc but if you keep doing the right things then the theory, and this is what Bielsa believes, is that you should win matches - how many times in press conferences did he say stuff along the lines of we had 4 clear cut chances the opposition had one. The way of playing is correct, there is no problem with that - what we have needed to do all season is improve the efficiency, sadly towards the end of the season the efficiency got worse (Roofe out injured and Bamford not fully fit and not suited to the formation) and the amount of soft goals we gave away increased. If we improve the efficiency (i.e. get players who have more composure in front of goal) then the style of play is 100% correct.

He turned an average bunch of players into player that could play his system, if he can identify better players within our budget, and the board backs him, we will improve. What he did with the players he inherited was nothing short of amazing but you cannot continually improve players. If boards didn't back him before then it is hardly a surprise if the team suffered the next season as all it needs is one or two players to not be able to keep up the standard and the whole team is weakened.
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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by Irish Ian » Fri May 24, 2019 9:57 pm

weasel wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 7:24 pm
Even that match we should have won. 1-0 up against 10 men we could have sat back and taken the win. For me Wigan didn't beat us we just lost the plot, a big crowd, promotion in our hands and at 1-0 up v 10 men the feeling seemed to be let's boost the goal difference just in case it comes down to that. The players seemed to think they could stroll to a 6-0 win. How on earth can you get caught out on the break against 10 men? It just defies any logic because you don't need to put extra men up because you already have the player advantage - so you keep 2-1 against them at the back. Yes try to add to the lead but don't risk losing the lead. . Wigan didn't beat us we beat ourselves and then at 2-1 down it was just a mass panic, they stopped playing the Bielsa way - so we actually left Plan A and played god knows what. I certainly doubt Bielsa told them to play in a different way.
How did that happen.?

Proverbs 11:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 For lack of guidance a nation falls,
but victory is won through many advisers.

With no vision of what we needed from the game and no leadership on the pitch the door was open for
, doubt, panic, anxiety and ultimately failure.
"We can wait for the next game with serenity"

"I am quite clear in my mind that one has to feel sincere love for those he leads, and if he doesn't feel it naturally, then he must learn how to feel it"


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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by SaraM » Sat May 25, 2019 12:59 am

Irish Ian wrote:
Fri May 24, 2019 9:57 pm
Proverbs 11:14 New International Version (NIV)
14 For lack of guidance a nation falls,
but victory is won through many advisers.
2 Kings 1:2 Jerusalem Bible

'Go and consult Bielsa the god of Elland Road and ask whether Clarke shall recover from his illness'.

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by rab_rant » Sat May 25, 2019 6:50 am

Just think if Bielsa goes who would replace him... Heckingbottom, Darko, Hockaday, Christianson,
Monk, Warnock, Rosler, Evans, Redfern Grayson?

We have had tons of lame ducks as managers, and for the first time we have a world class
manager who has not only transformed the team but also the fanbase and the management.
A man of principle, a philosopher, a philanthropist, not God but definitely a saint.

He wants to improve the facilities at thorpe arch. He thinks of the well being of his players
unlike Hockaday he does not send then into an icey river as part of their training, unlike Warnock
he does not encourage hoofball and prefers to play the beautiful game to delight the fans, and
hopefully he will not abandon us like Monk.

We have a treasure, and he held the premise that he would only want players that were better
than the ones we already had. If you apply the same principle to managers then we would be hard
pressed to replace him with someone who is better.

If I was asked to choose between Pep and Klopp I would choose Klopp, for the simple
reason that he loves his players, and they give there all for him. With Pep's players
they all play for the money.

The hope that I have is that Bielsa can put together a team that is fully committed
to him and his style of play. Let him build a team that we all can love, and with that
success will surely come.
Scottish Steel and Irish Fire that's the weapon I desire.

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mothbanquet
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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by mothbanquet » Sat May 25, 2019 8:23 am

I've often had the same thoughts as you Cjay but it's all relative. Yes, we don't have the likes of Messi, De Bruyne etc but Championship teams don't have the likes of Van Dijk, Pique etc. As Weasel pointed out, sitting back and hitting us on the break hasn't limited our chances, it's been our finishing and miscommunications and errors at the back that's let us down.

It's just that little bit extra quality we're lacking and hopefully we'll find it over the summer.

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SaraM
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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by SaraM » Sat May 25, 2019 9:46 am

rab_rant wrote:
Sat May 25, 2019 6:50 am
Just think if Bielsa goes who would replace him... Heckingbottom, Darko, Hockaday, Christianson,
Monk, Warnock, Rosler, Evans, Redfern Grayson?

We have had tons of lame ducks as managers, and for the first time we have a world class
manager who has not only transformed the team but also the fanbase and the management.
A man of principle, a philosopher, a philanthropist, not God but definitely a saint.

He wants to improve the facilities at thorpe arch. He thinks of the well being of his players
unlike Hockaday he does not send then into an icey river as part of their training, unlike Warnock
he does not encourage hoofball and prefers to play the beautiful game to delight the fans, and
hopefully he will not abandon us like Monk.

We have a treasure, and he held the premise that he would only want players that were better
than the ones we already had. If you apply the same principle to managers then we would be hard
pressed to replace him with someone who is better.

If I was asked to choose between Pep and Klopp I would choose Klopp, for the simple
reason that he loves his players, and they give there all for him. With Pep's players
they all play for the money.

The hope that I have is that Bielsa can put together a team that is fully committed
to him and his style of play. Let him build a team that we all can love, and with that
success will surely come.
Beautifully put. Totally agree.

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Re: Devils Advocate

Post by BGwhite » Sat May 25, 2019 2:25 pm

weasel wrote: Even that match we should have won. 1-0 up against 10 men we could have sat back and taken the win. For me Wigan didn't beat us we just lost the plot, a big crowd, promotion in our hands and at 1-0 up v 10 men the feeling seemed to be let's boost the goal difference just in case it comes down to that. The players seemed to think they could stroll to a 6-0 win. How on earth can you get caught out on the break against 10 men? It just defies any logic because you don't need to put extra men up because you already have the player advantage - so you keep 2-1 against them at the back. Yes try to add to the lead but don't risk losing the lead. . Wigan didn't beat us we beat ourselves and then at 2-1 down it was just a mass panic, they stopped playing the Bielsa way - so we actually left Plan A and played god knows what. I certainly doubt Bielsa told them to play in a different way.
In the Wigan game we had 2 at the back when they played a ball through the middle and split our defence. Janson was too far upfield and the defender to the his right was too wide, probably both ball watching at the other end and not close enough to their only attacker to catch him. This has been going on all season, our defence switches off when we are attacking instead of man marking their only attacker waiting for the ball through or over the top. For me its basic defending but they all get carried away and push up way too far and too far away from the attacker(s). The Derby game we panicked because they had found the way to get at us....attack at pace and direct which again leeds cannot handle it. At 2-1 during half time Lampards team talk was easy....youve just found out their weak point, fast ,direct through the middle and they panik every time, repeat over & over and they'll collapse.
If MB doesn't get 2-3 quality players in addition to the current crop then i cant see leeds getting autos, playoffs at best and he also needs to be able to switch styles if things aren't going to plan. Its unwise to keep repeating the same mistakes but im sure by now he's well aware of that, the question is has he got anything else to offer ?

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