Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread - Bielsa messes up

Post by SaraM » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:04 pm

faaip wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 12:13 am
I kinda meant what's your medium for HGTTG, I guess books too but they always seemed an afterthought to me. Has to be radio and I still listen regularly

Favourite spaceship? Has to be the Starship Bistromath
Ah, I'm with you. Books first, for me, then the tv series, which I love. Reread the books every few years, but actually never heard the radio version. Sounds like I need to seek it out.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread - Bielsa messes up

Post by SaraM » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:07 pm

rab_rant wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 4:02 am
VOGON!!!!!

Sent from my SM-G903F using Tapatalk
I'm better than them, by an order of one. I generally have better stuff in my armpits to write about. Sets me apart in the poetry world.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread - Bielsa messes up

Post by SaraM » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:08 pm

John in Louisiana wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 5:22 pm
Well.....AT least you're better than the Vogons.
It's a point of pride!
In football, nothing is true, nothing is false.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread - Bielsa messes up

Post by hector » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:11 pm

SaraM wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:07 pm
I'm better than them, by an order of one. I generally have better stuff in my armpits to write about. Sets me apart in the poetry world.
Better than a small lump of green putty?? :shock: :shock:
I'm often accused of acting like I don't care






It's not an act!!



:) :)

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:39 pm

The brilliant Dirk Maggs did series 3-5 of the radio show and of course responsible for the fantastic Adventures of Sexton Blake too. Which I highly recommend and have in the past

Now time for a perfectly normal beast sandwich
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by Norm » Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:49 pm

I love your compliments H - you have a certain je ne sais quoi? :)

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread - Bielsa messes up

Post by SaraM » Mon Dec 16, 2019 9:40 pm

hector wrote:
Mon Dec 16, 2019 6:11 pm
Better than a small lump of green putty?? :shock: :shock:
Only just. ;-)
In football, nothing is true, nothing is false.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by jindy30 » Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:31 am

Yep what a disa...ppppppointment. however i think bielsa has to reconsider his substitutes. Changing the back 4 right at the end was a mistake.

Also Kllich, and Dallas played well but really they lack consistency.

Alioski , the most improved players under beilsa should get a first team place.

Glad Costa is showing up, he definitely has more to give.

Bamford is scoring his opportunities but so are other players.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by 1964white » Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:04 am

jindy30 wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 5:31 am
Yep what a disa...ppppppointment. however i think bielsa has to reconsider his substitutes. Changing the back 4 right at the end was a mistake.
Fully agree our defence was already disjointed without Cooper, weakening the back four was a recipe for disaster, back four should have become a back five was the change to make. Thank god the game didn't go on much longer.

A learning curve for all concern!

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by mothbanquet » Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:19 am

1964white wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 7:04 am
Fully agree our defence was already disjointed without Cooper, weakening the back four was a recipe for disaster, back four should have become a back five was the change to make. Thank god the game didn't go on much longer.

A learning curve for all concern!
I think you're saying the right thing but in the wrong way here. Cardiff's defence was disjointed in the first half of the game, and ours was disjointed in the last 30 minutes. However, that was this game. Until that game, our defence held the best goals conceded ratio by far in multiple leagues and tiers across Europe. This, along with a dozen clean sheets, was achieved without Cooper as well as with him.

This cannot be possible if the defence is fundamentally disjointed. It is almost impossible to achieve that level of results through luck alone. How can ten goals conceded in twenty-one league games logically become a recipe for disaster because of a tweak? Sorry mate, hyperbole generated by a disappointed sequence of events does not equal reality. White/Berardi maintained the defensive performance of White/Cooper adequately in real terms.

Taking into account Kiko, Ayling, Dallas and Phillips - in fact the whole team - are equally responsible for defence when the team is not in possession, surely they are all equally culpable? Why were those Cardiff players who scored allowed to have the ball, why were players further up the pitch not closed down and pressured like they were in the first 60 minutes? Why is Neil Harris's head wider at the bottom than it is at the top?

Of course, reality does interject here. It was plain as day to see our intensity dropped immediately when we were 3 nil up, and you can to a degree forgive the attacking players for thinking their job was done and wanting to rest their legs. This is a mental issue, not a tactical one, and no changes Bielsa made to the game at this point would affect their complacency beyond shouting at them. A change from a back four to a back five would have simply meant five switched-off players at the back instead of four. And this is exactly where Cooper's absence, as you rightly point out, was missed.

I was of the same mind straight away when the second goal went in. Leadership isn't needed as much when things are going well as when they turn the other way. The Bera-White partnership has been successful, that's undeniable, but sooner or later everyone makes mistakes. In this instance, that partnership had not experienced something go so wrong so quickly, and in this instance is where leadership comes into play. Inspiring a winning, confident team to win is nowhere near as challenging as hoisting a failing team up by their collars and making them believe in victory against the flow of current events. We have to credit Cardiff for doing this, they may still have thought they'd lose anyway even when our players mentally downed tools. They were 3 goals down away, after all. I think Cooper would have either had the lads pull their socks up after the first or second Cardiff goal, or held them together before they were scored.

White and Berardi have been extremely effective, but maybe this game has exposed their limits. We won't really know that for certain until we have a further basis for comparison, but it is a possibility. It could simply be a bad day at the office. I do feel Cooper added a little something extra however and maybe we'll be able to pin that down a bit more precisely when he comes back into the team.

And our height is fine. :P

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:01 pm

I think everyone forgets that MB had been making late changes to the defence in the previous 7 games too.
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by 1964white » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:02 pm

mothbanquet wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 11:19 am
Europe. This, along with a dozen clean sheets, was achieved without Cooper as well as with him.

This cannot be possible if the defence is fundamentally disjointed. It is almost impossible to achieve that level of results through luck alone. How can ten goals conceded in twenty-one league games logically become a recipe for disaster because of a tweak? Sorry mate, hyperbole generated by a disappointed sequence of events does not equal reality. White/Berardi maintained the defensive performance of White/Cooper adequately in real terms.
It really depends who we play, I know I sound like a broken record but our defence looked shaky against Cardiff, Millwall & Sheff Wed, three teams who use bullying tactics & like to play the ball in the air.

We needed Cooper in all three games, you certainly shouldn't take off your 3rd choice so-called CB when you're hanging onto a lead

Fulham shouldn't be a problem as long as White keeps Mitrovic quiet, their style of play is much different to the above three teams we struggled against & constantly have done over many seasons.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by 1964white » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:03 pm

faaip wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 12:01 pm
I think everyone forgets that MB had been making late changes to the defence in the previous 7 games too.
The difference being we previously made the correct changes.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by mothbanquet » Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:38 pm

1964white wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:02 pm
It really depends who we play, I know I sound like a broken record but our defence looked shaky against Cardiff, Millwall & Sheff Wed, three teams who use bullying tactics & like to play the ball in the air.

We needed Cooper in all three games, you certainly shouldn't take off your 3rd choice so-called CB when you're hanging onto a lead

Fulham shouldn't be a problem as long as White keeps Mitrovic quiet, their style of play is much different to the above three teams we struggled against & constantly have done over many seasons.
Agreed, and Huddersfield too used the same tactics to good effect. If not for the heroics of Kiko the game could have turned out very differently. However, the result was an away win with a clean sheet, so the subject of what could have been is pushed to the background, rightly or wrongly.

Was this a case of riding our luck too long? Looking back at Cardiff's goals, at least two of them are purely down to lack of positional awareness or concentration on the part of the defenders. Their first was either a truly excellent shot or wayward cross, either way it went because it capitalised on an error in Kiko's judgement, not a result of bullying. The equaliser was a pacey break between our CBs, not winning a tussle in the box to score from a header. We've suffered so few of these kinds of goals which were our Achille's Heel last season, but Strujik was out of position to allow the striker to break so maybe they simply forgot these kinds of attacks existed...

Beyond reminding the lads to keep switched on and perhaps offering a difference in communication with Kiko, I don't see how Cooper's presence would have effected those particular goals and their physical game has no influence on that beyond what we saw. Maybe Neil Harris is just Monk 2.0 in that he's just destined to get some sort of a result from us no matter what.

I certainly can't argue your gripes with taking off CBs when in a winning position, because that makes perfect sense logically and Bielsa this season has been much more willing to make defensive substitions, so he has proven to adhere to the same logic. I will let more tactically-informed people make an argument on this point because I may well miss or not understand the minutae.

Ultimately though, as you say, Fulham will be the real point of comparison. Was Cardiff an aberration or the start of some kind of decline? Impossible to tell until then. We've shown we can contain strong physical presences and aerial threats, of which Mitrovich is probably the most dangerous example in this league, so a clean sheet will be a challenge. We will see.

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:26 pm

1964white wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 1:03 pm
The difference being we previously made the correct changes.
It's correct when it works, incorrect when it doesn't. Hindsight is 20/20 and an all too easy weapon to criticize using
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:29 pm

Isn't riding your luck what every winning team does?
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by 1964white » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:01 pm

faaip wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 2:26 pm
It's correct when it works, incorrect when it doesn't. Hindsight is 20/20 and an all too easy weapon to criticize using
Well I believe most footy fans would agree with me subbing Berardi for a kid was a wrong move, Struijk coming on to bolster our defence makes more sense!

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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:40 pm

Yet Struijk came on the game before and did very well, we've also played Casey as a sub too IIRC. Most footy fans think Berardi to blame for not being tall enough I'm sure when that sub was made at 3-1 most fans would have said good move. Can't prove that because everyone uses hindsight to compound their beliefs and minds get changed post game...
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by faaip » Wed Dec 18, 2019 6:41 pm

So what everyone is saying is they want new players in Jan who haven't played in this system at any point but don't want to blood the good kids we already have, who have.... OK
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Re: Leeds Utd v Cardiff City Match Thread

Post by 1964white » Thu Dec 19, 2019 7:43 pm

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