What another shambles!

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danhirons
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by danhirons » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:24 am

seeing the following banded about (or essentially) "Let's get out by any means possible"

I'm sure you'll all be the first to complain when there are issues in the future because of a bad deal or a no-deal!

Now, while I voted to remain (and live in Germany so don't care too much), I agree that now there has been a vote on it we have to leave (for the sake of democracy, even if it is only "advisory"). The issue was that (1) a decision of this magnitude should not have been left to the (often) uninformed public vote and (2) the vote should not have been binary, deals should already have been struck and put on the table. How can you have an informed vote on something without realistically knowing what it actually is that the outcome would be...?

I have no sympathy for Boris Johnson anyway...but that's another story...

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SaraM
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:47 am

:roll:

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1964white
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by 1964white » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:05 pm

SaraM wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am
Some great answers there Sara :tup:

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by 1964white » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:16 pm

danhirons wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:24 am
seeing the following banded about (or essentially) "Let's get out by any means possible"

I'm sure you'll all be the first to complain when there are issues in the future because of a bad deal or a no-deal!

Now, while I voted to remain (and live in Germany so don't care too much), I agree that now there has been a vote on it we have to leave (for the sake of democracy, even if it is only "advisory"). The issue was that (1) a decision of this magnitude should not have been left to the (often) uninformed public vote and (2) the vote should not have been binary, deals should already have been struck and put on the table. How can you have an informed vote on something without realistically knowing what it actually is that the outcome would be...?

I have no sympathy for Boris Johnson anyway...but that's another story...
Always thought the Germans were tougher than to be dictated by Brussels, maybe not!

Brits wanting out of the EU must be a hard pill to swallow for the nation you reside in Dan

Majority of us on our little island want our own independence, nothing wrong with that.

Don't worry about us outing the EU, plenty of trade available with America, Japan, China, etc

Lets have our democracy back in Great Britain

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by lufc1304 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:25 pm

SaraM wrote:
Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:00 pm
Sara, for clarity, I was including myself amongst those who did not understand the full implications of what remaining or leaving entailed. If you were totally clued up, then I apologise, but it is still my view that a sizeable number of the electorate based their decision on what they were being told by both campaigns. Leave lied, and admitted they did, and the remain campaign had us living in caves within 6 months. You may have a different view, that's fine, but I refute the suggestion that I am elitist in my view. I'm working class from NI, elistist I am not. But it remains my opinion that we are all wiser as to what leaving and remaining entails now than we were in 2016, and should have a voice in how the UK moves forward.
"When the going gets weird, the weird get professional!" Hunter S Thompson

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by hector » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:26 pm

Here is part of Fat Dave's speech when he anounced that there was going to be a referendum....


Cameron.jpg
Cameron.jpg (92.56 KiB) Viewed 744 times
Sent from my bog standard Pc using my fingers.................



:) :)

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1964white
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by 1964white » Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:58 pm

hector wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:26 pm
Here is part of Fat Dave's speech when he anounced that there was going to be a referendum....



Cameron.jpg
Cameron has a lot to answer for !

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by faaip » Mon Oct 21, 2019 1:13 pm

danhirons wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:24 am
seeing the following banded about (or essentially) "Let's get out by any means possible"

I'm sure you'll all be the first to complain when there are issues in the future because of a bad deal or a no-deal!

Now, while I voted to remain (and live in Germany so don't care too much), I agree that now there has been a vote on it we have to leave (for the sake of democracy, even if it is only "advisory"). The issue was that (1) a decision of this magnitude should not have been left to the (often) uninformed public vote and (2) the vote should not have been binary, deals should already have been struck and put on the table. How can you have an informed vote on something without realistically knowing what it actually is that the outcome would be...?

I have no sympathy for Boris Johnson anyway...but that's another story...

Isn't that like saying to the wife, I want to work out the terms of a divorce just in case I want a divorce in the future. Plus who is qualified to make the decision if it's not the people?
GET IN THE BOAT AND ROW

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:11 pm

lufc1304 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 12:25 pm
Sara, for clarity, I was including myself amongst those who did not understand the full implications of what remaining or leaving entailed. If you were totally clued up, then I apologise, but it is still my view that a sizeable number of the electorate based their decision on what they were being told by both campaigns. Leave lied, and admitted they did, and the remain campaign had us living in caves within 6 months. You may have a different view, that's fine, but I refute the suggestion that I am elitist in my view. I'm working class from NI, elistist I am not. But it remains my opinion that we are all wiser as to what leaving and remaining entails now than we were in 2016, and should have a voice in how the UK moves forward.
Yes, sorry, it was probably a bit strong calling you elitist, but it is a sentiment I hear repeatedly from people who generally see themselves as socially progressive; it amounts to saying that the working class are too thick to make this sort of decision because they're all ignorant racists.

Not only is it untrue, but even if it were, that is democracy; thick people whose views we don't like are as entitled to their vote as anyone else.

Making them vote again in the hope they'll get it right a second time around is not how it works.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by lufc1304 » Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:33 pm

SaraM wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 3:11 pm
Yes, sorry, it was probably a bit strong calling you elitist, but it is a sentiment I hear repeatedly from people who generally see themselves as socially progressive; it amounts to saying that the working class are too thick to make this sort of decision because they're all ignorant racists.

Not only is it untrue, but even if it were, that is democracy; thick people whose views we don't like are as entitled to their vote as anyone else.

Making them vote again in the hope they'll get it right a second time around is not how it works.
Apology accepted, thank you. I probably didn't explain myself as well as I could have. I wasn't suggesting that folk were too thick to grasp what the implications were (though undoubtedly some were), it was more the fact that very few actually knew how this would pan out, whether in or out. The govt admitted it hadn't carried out any impact assessments and David Davis said Brexit could be sorted out in an afternoon over tea and sandwiches! When those tasked with delivering the withdrawal didn't know what would happen, it's not a huge leap to suggest that most ordinary folk didn't either. 3 years on, we are all a lot wiser as to the potential impact of leaving, that's why I favour a second referendum. Not to circumvent democracy or some idea that we keep voting until we get the answer we want, but to allow people to make an informed decision. If the majority still want out, then they do so with their eyes wide open, and no-one can cry foul. I understand there are many who don't agree with me, but that's ok, it is just my opinion.
"When the going gets weird, the weird get professional!" Hunter S Thompson

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:03 pm

lufc1304 wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 4:33 pm
Apology accepted, thank you. I probably didn't explain myself as well as I could have. I wasn't suggesting that folk were too thick to grasp what the implications were (though undoubtedly some were), it was more the fact that very few actually knew how this would pan out, whether in or out. The govt admitted it hadn't carried out any impact assessments and David Davis said Brexit could be sorted out in an afternoon over tea and sandwiches! When those tasked with delivering the withdrawal didn't know what would happen, it's not a huge leap to suggest that most ordinary folk didn't either. 3 years on, we are all a lot wiser as to the potential impact of leaving, that's why I favour a second referendum. Not to circumvent democracy or some idea that we keep voting until we get the answer we want, but to allow people to make an informed decision. If the majority still want out, then they do so with their eyes wide open, and no-one can cry foul. I understand there are many who don't agree with me, but that's ok, it is just my opinion.
I disagree with the basic premise that the decision should have been made according to an accurate forecast of future economic eventualities. Not only is such a thing not possible, and open to manipulation, as we have seen, but I don't think it is the best, or even a necessary, criteria.

Most people voted leave on the issue of sovereignty. Whatever the scope of their understanding of the details, there is a broad principle that key decisions which affect our lives should be made by people, and in a way, which is accountable to us. The EU is demonstrably anti democratic, in its constitution, its structures, its policies, and its trajectory over the last 40 years. Nothing that has occurred since the referendum has allayed that concern; in fact, quite the opposite.

Do you want to be ruled by an authoritarian superstate?

No.

You might be a bit worse off...

Still no.

We will do our utmost to frustrate your will and make you suffer.

Bye then.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by dezzy » Mon Oct 21, 2019 5:47 pm

SaraM wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:15 am
Really well spoken, agree with a lot of what you say and what I don’t I wouldn’t argue with :tup:
I realised I was dyslexic when I went to a toga party dressed as a goat..

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by radebe88 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:36 am

I’m really sorry for any of you that voted for Brexit. I’m sure you’re mostly all good folk. You were lied to, it can happen to anyone under these circumstances and after years of anti European and immigration propaganda.

Those that still feel the same way and still back leave despite everything we now know after 3 years... I find bizarre. Those that still back the likes of Johnson, JRM etc, I’ll never understand it, I wish I did so I could help.

Turkeys voting for Christmas...

That been said. I love you for being Leeds. We will always have that in common.
MOT

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by hector » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:20 am

That is so patronising that I am lost for words!!!!!!!!!
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Re: What another shambles !

Post by radebe88 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:45 am

hector wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:20 am
That is so patronising that I am lost for words!!!!!!!!!
It’s a subject that’s incredibly hard to not be patronising about and as the future generations are going to suffer we should all stop apologising for it.

That being said I blame the people that sold you these lies not you.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by Gurj » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:03 am

radebe88 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 1:36 am
I’m really sorry for any of you that voted for Brexit. I’m sure you’re mostly all good folk. You were lied to, it can happen to anyone under these circumstances and after years of anti European and immigration propaganda.

Those that still feel the same way and still back leave despite everything we now know after 3 years... I find bizarre. Those that still back the likes of Johnson, JRM etc, I’ll never understand it, I wish I did so I could help.

Turkeys voting for Christmas...

That been said. I love you for being Leeds. We will always have that in common.
MOT
Wholeheartedly agree with every single sentiment :tup:
LEEDS AND FOREVER PROUD TO BE !!

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by faaip » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:08 am

I f**king don't..I'm with Hector, I've just been talked down to like a special needs child..Talk about holier than thou attitude..
GET IN THE BOAT AND ROW

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by radebe88 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:18 am

faaip wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:08 am
I f**king don't..I'm with Hector, I've just been talked down to like a special needs child..Talk about holier than thou attitude..
Don’t feel ashamed. Don’t get angry at me, get angry at them. The ones that told you this could be done. That it would be the easiest deal in history. The ones that put messages on a side of a bus and made you think we’d be better off outside the largest trading block in the world.

After all the lies and convincing this could be done and be beneficial to your life we’re left at “let’s just get it done” “let’s just get out” and “leave means leave”

I hate what they have done to you.

You’re aiming at the wrong guy.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by SaraM » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:27 am

radebe88 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:18 am
I hate what they have done to you.
You're the one who's brainwashed, if you think our future wellbeing lies with a corporate banking cartel.

Your patronising attitude typifies what I experience from so many remoaners. You remind me of Jehovah's Witnesses, clinging on to your pathetically deluded version of the truth, and condemning anyone who has enough sense to see it for what it is.

Do one, basically, Leeds or not.

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Re: What another shambles !

Post by faaip » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:36 am

radebe88 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:18 am
Don’t feel ashamed. Don’t get angry at me, get angry at them. The ones that told you this could be done. That it would be the easiest deal in history. The ones that put messages on a side of a bus and made you think we’d be better off outside the largest trading block in the world.

After all the lies and convincing this could be done and be beneficial to your life we’re left at “let’s just get it done” “let’s just get out” and “leave means leave”

I hate what they have done to you.

You’re aiming at the wrong guy.
f**k me you did it again....but you know that.
GET IN THE BOAT AND ROW

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