FFP SItuation

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Cjay
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FFP SItuation

Post by Cjay » Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:59 pm

So this is the weight around our neck.

Not just us but most EFL clubs tbf.

The problem is that our accounts dont tally up with us being close to FFP trouble to the extent we need to keep selling our best players.


Its also important to remember that the figure the clubs post isnt the figure that the FFP lot will use, certain things dont count towards FFP.
Infrastructure, youth development and other things are exempt, so to highlight that point Birmingham City posted losses of £37.5 pre tax but the ffp panel put their losses at £33.8mil

So the figures we post will be less then our actual ffp losses which is important.

IN 2015/2016 we posted a pre tax loss of £8.9million
In 2016/2017 we posted a profit of £1mil
In 2017/2018 we posted a pre tax loss of £4.3million

So for that period we were £12.3 million clear of ffp.

What dictates our spending this season is our accounts for last season, this season and the season before last so 2019/2020, 2018/2019 and 2017/2018.

We only have the accounts for 2017/2018 which was a pre tax loss of £4.3milion but given certain things are exempt that loss will be reduced and may even be slightly in profit.

For last season we dont know but reports that we are getting estimate a pre tax loss of about £15million pounds.

Because we cant work out how much would be exempt (atleast a few million will be) we will just take those figures and estimate so based on that we are currently running at a loss of £19.3million pounds meaning to comply with ffp we have to post a loss of no more then £19.7million pounds for this coming season.

With the exemptions its likely that we actually have a few million more then that room.

Also an owner is able to cover losses up to £8mil so if the club were £5mil over ffp limit radz is allowed to cover that and no sanctions are imposed.

FFP is clearly something to be wary off but it doesnt seem that it is as terrifying as the club would have us believe?

I dont really understand ffp and have just read this so if anyone knows more please do pipe up.

But to listen to the club you would think we were on the verge of a disaster and that doesnt seem to tally with what our accounts suggest :duno:

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hector
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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by hector » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:06 pm

The club spouts FFP because Radz does not wish to use any more of his own money to boost the club ( for whatever reason), and we could be miles away from ffp fail, but if the owner ain't paying out, nowt can make him.
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hector
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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by hector » Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:07 pm

ps

I don't understand FFP at all.... :)
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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by weasel » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:42 pm

Forget about FFP - all that FFP does is allow us to go £39m into debt over 3 years. What business being run well would want to lose £39m in 3 years - I am sure AR wants us to be self sufficient and breaking even financially every year, if I was running the club that is what I would be aiming to do and like AR I would set the transfer spending based on what we brought in.

Very easy for any of us to say gamble on losing the £39m because if we get promoted then it doesn't matter as we would get the premiership money. But what happens if we don't get promoted - should the business then lose another £13m every year until we either get promoted or go bust. £39m. AR bought the club for £45m so who in their right mind would pump £39m more (with no guarantee of getting any of it back) into an asset that is only worth £45m. Just last year we only had 2 players worth any money, Vieira and Jannson, and most seasons in recent history we have only had 1 player worth anything at the end of a season and they have been flogged just to try to balance the books. We could keep Kalvin Phillips this year and if he has a poor season then his value would plummet. Player values are very fickle in football and until you get the money they aren't technically worth anything as they can simply run down their contracts and leave for free.
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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by SG90 » Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:12 pm

I still don't understand how we could've lost £15m, it makes no sense. Bamford was paid for by Vieira and Douglas by the extra £3m we got from the Chris Wood deal. Only Kiko came in in January, on a free, and we got a £500k loan fee for Saiz which equalled out the wages. £5m loans but we loaned out several too, so surely we made a chunk back. Probably not £5m, but I'm guessing around £2m. Only Shackleton got a new contract and he'd be on less than £5k a week. Sell out crowds every week, plus the extra play off game. I struggle to see where the £15m comes from.

The only way to make a profit in this league is by increasing non football commercial income. We saw the Warrington fight brought in £1.5m and the Kaiser Chiefs gig would have brought similar in. We need to put on more boxing and concerts over the summer to offshoot the loss of ticket income. I wonder if Leeds Festival impacts on the potential of big name artists we could get? Although the line ups there have been terrible for the last decade.

I've said it before, but I'd consider a 49ers game too, as it will be a guaranteed sell out, but also an opportunity for more sponsorship and tv revenue worldwide, as well as boosting our name as a club globally.
Radz out now

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by weasel » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:35 pm

SG90 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:12 pm
I still don't understand how we could've lost £15m, it makes no sense. Bamford was paid for by Vieira and Douglas by the extra £3m we got from the Chris Wood deal. Only Kiko came in in January, on a free, and we got a £500k loan fee for Saiz which equalled out the wages. £5m loans but we loaned out several too, so surely we made a chunk back. Probably not £5m, but I'm guessing around £2m. Only Shackleton got a new contract and he'd be on less than £5k a week. Sell out crowds every week, plus the extra play off game. I struggle to see where the £15m comes from.

The only way to make a profit in this league is by increasing non football commercial income. We saw the Warrington fight brought in £1.5m and the Kaiser Chiefs gig would have brought similar in. We need to put on more boxing and concerts over the summer to offshoot the loss of ticket income. I wonder if Leeds Festival impacts on the potential of big name artists we could get? Although the line ups there have been terrible for the last decade.

I've said it before, but I'd consider a 49ers game too, as it will be a guaranteed sell out, but also an opportunity for more sponsorship and tv revenue worldwide, as well as boosting our name as a club globally.
If you look at the quality of player we loaned out it is probably likely we were still paying a sizeable percentage of their wages, hardly like Liverpool loaning out players that would walk into the team they went to - our loan players were mostly players that didn't even become regulars at the sides they went to so I doubt we got any money for the players we loaned out and all we got was part of their wages being paid. So rather than us getting £2m from loaning players out it was probably more likely those players cost us £2m in their combined wages.
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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by Cjay » Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:40 pm

Just read this on twitter, think it is Mike Thornton the Accountant guy.

The investment figures that people think stop Radz investing (me to tbh) dont exist anymore.

Profit and Sustainability rules came in replacing the old FFP rules and it was the old rules that had an £8mil per season limit.

Apparently its much more complicated then it seems and includes forecasts for the next 2 years.

If a club makes losses the club must prove to the EFl that they can continue financially for the next 2 years and the owner must cover the losses out of his own pocket (if owners are forced to cover the losses then they are more likely to run the club well)., if the EFl arent satisfied then they can put in measures, soft embargo and such and then further down the line points deductions.

They dont just slap a points deduction down and if the owners can prove the club has finances in place (from him) then all is ok.

So PnS rules arent as scary as the club make out then, cant be ignored but nothing like as horrific as we are all lead to believe.

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by Genghers » Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:43 am

SG90 wrote:
Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:12 pm
I've said it before, but I'd consider a 49ers game too, as it will be a guaranteed sell out, but also an opportunity for more sponsorship and tv revenue worldwide, as well as boosting our name as a club globally.
:lol: Good luck with that.

Spurs' new stadium has a retractable NFL pitch for the games that are played over here. Think it's 2 there and 1 at Wembley this year. No way the NFL would come to ER having built a relationship with London.

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by SG90 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:14 am

Genghers wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:43 am
:lol: Good luck with that.

Spurs' new stadium has a retractable NFL pitch for the games that are played over here. Think it's 2 there and 1 at Wembley this year. No way the NFL would come to ER having built a relationship with London.
The 49ers wouldn't have bought into us if they weren't interested in Leeds. They want to build their brand over here, we could do with the money it would generate. It's a no brainer really, which means it won't happen.
Radz out now

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by SG90 » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:20 am

Cjay wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 6:40 pm
Just read this on twitter, think it is Mike Thornton the Accountant guy.

The investment figures that people think stop Radz investing (me to tbh) dont exist anymore.

Profit and Sustainability rules came in replacing the old FFP rules and it was the old rules that had an £8mil per season limit.

Apparently its much more complicated then it seems and includes forecasts for the next 2 years.

If a club makes losses the club must prove to the EFl that they can continue financially for the next 2 years and the owner must cover the losses out of his own pocket (if owners are forced to cover the losses then they are more likely to run the club well)., if the EFl arent satisfied then they can put in measures, soft embargo and such and then further down the line points deductions.

They dont just slap a points deduction down and if the owners can prove the club has finances in place (from him) then all is ok.

So PnS rules arent as scary as the club make out then, cant be ignored but nothing like as horrific as we are all lead to believe.
I thought the whole point of ffp was so clubs lived within their means rather than relying on a sugar daddy. These rules seem to indicate otherwise.
Radz out now

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by Cjay » Thu Jun 27, 2019 10:48 am

SG90 wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:20 am
I thought the whole point of ffp was so clubs lived within their means rather than relying on a sugar daddy. These rules seem to indicate otherwise.
So did i but actually it does explain a lot.

How teams like Derby and the Wendies have been able to spend so much.

Why teams are willing to risk FFP.

Makes sense.

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by HarryofOz » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:08 am

AC Milan banned from Europe for FFP breaches

How the mighty have fallen

I still remember AC Milan dominating Serie A and Europe with the Dutch trio of Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkard; not to mention their Italian talent like Baresi and Maldini.

What a class player Maldini was. You don't seen top quality footballing defenders like him nowadays.
We're going up like there is no gravity!

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by SG90 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:48 am

HarryofOz wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 11:08 am
AC Milan banned from Europe for FFP breaches

How the mighty have fallen

I still remember AC Milan dominating Serie A and Europe with the Dutch trio of Van Basten, Gullit and Rijkard; not to mention their Italian talent like Baresi and Maldini.

What a class player Maldini was. You don't seen top quality footballing defenders like him nowadays.
I think they asked to be banned as it was only the Europa they qualified for. Expect another spending spree as they try and get top 4.
Radz out now

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Re: FFP SItuation

Post by SG90 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:08 pm

So Villa do a Derby and sell Villa Park to themselves for £56.7m. Where do they get these valuations from I wonder? :duno: Might be good a short term fix, but not in the long run.

https://www.expressandstar.com/sport/fo ... lion-deal/
Radz out now

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