Transfers so important

For everything Leeds United related and everything not - Have your say... the Marching on Together way!
Forum rules
Please be sure you are acquainted with the forum rules outlined within our FAQs.
Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 5100
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Transfers so important

Post by Cjay » Thu Jun 21, 2018 9:53 pm

Having watched Argentina make a total hash of it, it goes to show how important it is for us to get this transfer window right.

Jorge Sampaoli is a Bielsa follower, on screen it showed a 3-2-2-3 formation but it looked 3-3-1-3 quite often.

Mascherano dropping deep, picking the ball up deep, making it a back 4 at times, the other midfielder pushing up making it a 4 vs Croatias back 4 at times etc.

3 defenders- 2 wing backs plus Mascherano making the 3 then the other guy as the 1 then the front 3.

Players totally unsuited to there roles.

None of the back 3 looked comfortable passing out from the back (odd considering one was Otamendi of Manchester City).

Willy Caballero not comfortable with the ball at his feet (obviously).

The 2 wing backs always far to far forward leaving the Argies exposed out wide (someone said, think it was Pablo Zabaleta, that they both are actually wingers ). Naturally they think offensive not defensive.

Enzo Perez who was the one partnering Mascherano is 32 and not a particularly good player apparently especially attacking wise, evident by his time at Valencia. He only came in because of Manuel Lanzini's injury (someone who would have suited that more forward role).

But most tellingly imo was how uninvolved Lionel Messi and Sergio Aguero were.

2 world class players, but because of the mess behind them they could hardly get a kick.

If you havent the defenders to pass out from the back, the deeper midfielder (Mascherano) cant get on the ball in the correct areas, he in turn cant get the Enganche (Enzo Perez in this case) into the game.
If that player cant get into the game your front 3 become isolated and no matter how good they are (cant get better then Aguero and Messi) the front 3 will be mere bystanders unless as Messi did they come deep, which throws the whole formation out of sync anyway because the press that this formation is famous for wont work if you get it forward and lose it.

So i found it quite interesting watching the Argies tonight.

A glimpse into our future tactics perhaps.

paddy parrott
First Team
First Team
Posts: 1334
Joined: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:39 pm

Re: Transfers so important

Post by paddy parrott » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:03 pm

We certainly haven't got the players for that system of course. 3 at back is one thing but they need the experience and have to be top quality. It is not only adventerous but takes courages individuals to show that they possess the confidence and know how . Bielsa has some work to be doing wish him luck boys and girls.

User avatar
faaip
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 24088
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Transfers so important

Post by faaip » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:12 pm

New manager formation several new players, don't expect that much in 18/19 folks....

Has to be as it stands Ayling and Pearce at wing back, but does this formation call for wingers too? or is that front 3 fairly narrow?
Last edited by faaip on Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"My house is gone and now it's an Ultimart, You can never go home again Oatman, but I guess you can shop there

User avatar
faaip
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 24088
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Transfers so important

Post by faaip » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:14 pm

Also how close is the 3313 to the old W formation? Having trouble visualizing it
"My house is gone and now it's an Ultimart, You can never go home again Oatman, but I guess you can shop there

Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 5100
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Cjay » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:26 pm

faaip wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:14 pm
Also how close is the 3313 to the old W formation? Having trouble visualizing it
. . . . . . . . . . . . Gk . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . Cb . . . . . . . Cb . . . . . . . . Cb . .
Wb . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .wb
. . . . . . . . . . . Cm . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . Eng . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Atk . . . . . . . .Atk . . . . . . . . . . . .Atk.

Something like that.

Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 5100
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Cjay » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:29 pm

paddy parrott wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:03 pm
We certainly haven't got the players for that system of course. 3 at back is one thing but they need the experience and have to be top quality. It is not only adventerous but takes courages individuals to show that they possess the confidence and know how . Bielsa has some work to be doing wish him luck boys and girls.
Thats my concern.

The reason Bielsa hasnt achieved what youd expect trophy wise and the reason 3 of the best club sides (Spurs, City and Atletico Madrid) can make his idea work where he couldn't as much.

They have top quality players all over the pitch, think you need that or it doesnt work properly.

Cjay
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 5100
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:01 pm

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Cjay » Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:31 pm

faaip wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:12 pm
New manager formation several new players, don't expect that much in 18/19 folks....

Has to be as it stands Ayling and Pearce at wing back, but does this formation call for wingers too? or is that front 3 fairly narrow?
No i think the front 3 are meant to stay wide, make the pitch big and create gaps for the wing backs on the inside.

Could be wrong.

User avatar
faaip
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 24088
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Transfers so important

Post by faaip » Thu Jun 21, 2018 11:10 pm

Cjay wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:26 pm
. . . . . . . . . . . . Gk . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . Cb . . . . . . . Cb . . . . . . . . Cb . .
Wb . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .wb
. . . . . . . . . . . Cm . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
. . . . . . . . . . . Eng . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Atk . . . . . . . .Atk . . . . . . . . . . . .Atk.

Something like that.
That looks incredibly weak in the middle of the park,
"My house is gone and now it's an Ultimart, You can never go home again Oatman, but I guess you can shop there

User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 6674
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Espana

Re: Transfers so important

Post by weasel » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:44 am

The key to any formation is how hard the players work and that they understand where they need to be on the pitch both in and out of possession. Any formation can look great on paper but all it takes is for one player to not do their job and the holes appear. In some ways a hard working team is more important than a team full of skillful players - see how Argentina's skillful team didn't really gel whereas teams like Cardiff and Millwall do well through good organisation and hard work (not saying Millwall would beat Argentina but they would certainly make it hard for Argentina to play). To be really successful the key is to get players who will both work hard and have skill which is why Man City had great success as their players work really hard but also have a lot of skill. No system or formation though is devoid of weakness and City's struggles against a high pressing and high tempo Liverpool side shows that but then equally Liverpool then struggles against other teams.

To make Bielsa's system effective players also need to be comfortable in 2 posiitons. Having a midfielder play as a defender is great but the midfielder needs to be able to defend to a reasonable level. Mascheriano played for several seasons as a defender for Barcelona but was able to do so as he was good at reading the play and decent enough at tackling and reasonably all right in the air - if playing for a struggling team he would have probably been found out though as he would have had a lot more defending to do. However him playing as a defender meant though that when Barcelona had possession he could step forward a bit and make an extra man in midfield - effectively becoming an anchorman or defensive midfielder. In the system illustrated above then the midfield initially looks lightweight but then if the extra defender suddenly becomes a midfielder you then have 3 central midfielders and the midfield looks stronger. Similarly playing 3 centrebacks means the wingbacks can push forward without having to worry about being out of position - we saw this last year with Ayling being allowed to pop up all over the pitch and the opposition struggling to know who was meant to be marking him. Many fans lambasted Ayling for being out of position but players doing this is a key part of making a system work as it creates extra men on the pitch in areas where it matters rather than having a fullback simply having a rest while we are attacking. If we had have had someone doing it on the left as well we may well have done better. I don't think it is a coincidence that our big dip in form coincided with Ayling being out injured and likewise it is worth noting how Man City spent a fortune on fullbacks last summer and the difference it made.

The 3 attackers I would expect to consist of one central striker and 2 wide strikers who are expected to move centrally when the ball is about to be played in to the box (i.e. if the right sided striker is about to cross it then the left sided striker should then be in a central position alongside the central striker - and if it was the left sided striker about to cross then the right sided striker should be in the box). An example of this is Raheem Sterling who plays the wide position for City but gets into the box and scores a lot of 'striker' type goals from not far out getting on the end of a cross. He is not a winger but a player that is expected to play winger, striker and also work hard to get the ball back when the opposition have it - gone are the days of the winger who simply sticks to his touchline.

All in all it is about players all over the pitch doing at least two roles so you in theory have 3 centrebacks, 3 central midfielders, 2 fullbacks, 4 wingers and 3 strikers. Throw in the keeper playing as a sweeper and you effectively have 16 outfield players which is why it always looks like the player in possession has so many options. Of course that is if it is played well and the players can play the dual roles.
Last edited by weasel on Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Senor El Weasel

Norm
Manager
Manager
Posts: 4851
Joined: Tue May 27, 2003 2:51 am
Location: SW Missouri USA

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Norm » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:54 am

Welcome back weasel - superb post.

Azkalwhite
Subs Bench
Subs Bench
Posts: 565
Joined: Tue Aug 15, 2017 11:15 am

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Azkalwhite » Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:56 am

An enjoyable read, well considered analysis, good to see you back :tup:

User avatar
lufc1304
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 7232
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2011 1:40 pm
Twitter: @DrGonzo2411
Location: Lisburn, N.I

Re: Transfers so important

Post by lufc1304 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:58 am

Excellent analysis, weasel, and welcome back
"When the going gets weird, the weird get professional!" Hunter S Thompson

User avatar
gessa
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 18321
Joined: Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:40 pm

Re: Transfers so important

Post by gessa » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:12 am

Just looked at the length if tje post ant thought that's got to be weasel back. :)

Welcome back.

User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 6674
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Espana

Re: Transfers so important

Post by weasel » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:43 am

A lot is also made about the high press as if it is some sort of revolutionary idea however in many ways it is simply how a lot of underdog teams play. Instead of high press use the phrases ' get stuck in' and 'get in their faces.' Often for examples in cup matches the lower team works their balls off chasing down the better team and not allowing them to settle. We had it last season when we first came unstuck against Millwall. Millwall got into us (high press etc) and forced us into mistakes and losing possession. I feel at that point TC would have gone into the game expecting his players to be able to cope and that we'd simply keep moving the ball around, keeping possession and tiring Millwall out. Instead we had too many players bottling in and not doing what they had been told to do meaning the ball became like a hot potato with our players looking to pass it on as soon as they got it and with every rushed pass it increased the pressure on the player receiving it. If Millwall tried the same tactics v Barcelona you would expect the Barca players to not panic and simply move the ball around and with simple passes and soon Millwall would be knackered and the gaps would appear. A better example of this would be the Champions League final a few seasons back between Barca and Man Utd where Barca kept possession and toyed with MU. At one point it was 1-1 as despite MU being outplayed they got a goal out of nothing through Rooney but as the match went on it was like men v boys and Barca won comfortably with Man U out on their feet having simply chased the ball for 90 minutes. The key to the match was that Barca didn't panic and kept playing their way knowing that at some point gaps would appear as all it needed was 1 or 2 MU players to tire.

Also when you watch those type of matches it is worth noticing that when the chasing team wins possession they usually struggle to retain it as their players are all over the place having been chasing the opposition whereas Barca (or whoever is the passing team but will refer to them as Barca for the example) are usually still well set up as they haven't needed to drastically get out of position as they have simply been moving the ball around with short passes. Usually the only players that would be completely out of position would be the full backs if they have gotten forward - however this shouldn't be a problem as Barca would have their 2 central midfielders in place (or at least 1) and also the 3 centrebacks (or 2 centrebacks and holding midfielder dependent on formation). You also have the fact that the chasing team will have exerted a lot of energy simply to win the ball so may not then have much in the tank to support an attack whereas Barca players would have predominantly just been moving a few yards at a time with the ball doing most of the hard work (Iniesta a great example as the majority of his game is about getting the ball, doing a short pass, moving a few yards and getting the ball back and repeating it 100+ times per match).

Last season I think we tried to play like Barca but obviously the quality of our players let us down after initially doing well. Too many of our players weren't comfortable with the ball at their feet. If we are to succeed this time around then we will need better players but the hope is that as they have gone to such lengths to get Bielsa they will support him properly in the transfer market also I also wouldn't be surprised to see a few of the U23s getting into the first team as they have been playing in a way that would suggest they could fit into Bielsa's system and also he likes to work with younger players as usually they are more prepared to listen and have more energy.
Senor El Weasel

User avatar
weasel
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 6674
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 10:28 pm
Location: Espana

Re: Transfers so important

Post by weasel » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:46 am

cheers for the welcome backs, I decided to take a bit of a break from the forum as everything seemed to be leading to arguments - my feelings were that it was mainly down to PH being such a divisive manager but now that he has gone things seem a lot better.
Senor El Weasel

User avatar
1964white
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 63184
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 8:46 am
Twitter: @1964white

Re: Transfers so important

Post by 1964white » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:47 am

Welcome back Weasel

User avatar
faaip
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 24088
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Transfers so important

Post by faaip » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:41 pm

I used to like those little ones you used to get in cereal packets
"My house is gone and now it's an Ultimart, You can never go home again Oatman, but I guess you can shop there

User avatar
Richard
Reserve Player
Reserve Player
Posts: 333
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2018 7:50 am
Twitter: @northantsmanvan
Location: Northampton
Contact:

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Richard » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:56 am

faaip wrote:
Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:12 pm
New manager formation several new players, don't expect that much in 18/19 folks....

Has to be as it stands Ayling and Pearce at wing back, but does this formation call for wingers too? or is that front 3 fairly narrow?
Reading various reports on Bielsa it says he favours RBs and LBs either side of the main central defender, most importantly someone who is composed on the ball. He favours them as they are usually okay with ball at feet and will be happy to move out wide covering the wing when we have a threat.

He likes to play short passing triangles at the back, for me Ayling is nailed on he started his career at CB so right of Pontus is ideal. Pearce would not be my choice, I’d go Berardi over him, better still bring in someone new for that position.

I feel Pearce is good for the future, a decent LB but not ready to play in a back three. Forshaw is the obvious central defensive midfield player but the two either side of him is up for grabs.

If we do get Vydra then Saiz and Pablo fighting it out for 10 and Alioski wide right of Vydra specially if Saiz is 10, left we only have Dallas, I feel sorry for him as he spent most of last season out of position. Maybe he will be again used left of Forshaw and Klich given another chance?

User avatar
faaip
Superstar
Superstar
Posts: 24088
Joined: Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:03 am
Location: God's own county

Re: Transfers so important

Post by faaip » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:37 am

Ayling may have started as a defender but he's become a greater attacking threat than defensive one, he loves to get forward at the expense of his defensive duties these days it seems. Beradi would be way more suited to playing the "left centre back" in a back three than Ayling for me. If you're going to just have 2 full backs and a libero as your last line of defence then you want ones that can tackle.

Roofe is one his way to becoming a nice left winger imo.
"My house is gone and now it's an Ultimart, You can never go home again Oatman, but I guess you can shop there

User avatar
Leedscowboy
Ballboy
Ballboy
Posts: 19
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:29 pm
Twitter: @leedscowboy

Re: Transfers so important

Post by Leedscowboy » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:47 pm

For those who want more of a look into how the system works, and those that have played Football Manager the game here is a link to his tactics for a more indpeth look at how we will play.

https://www.fmscout.com/a-marcelo-biels ... -fm17.html


There is also this another FM site, https://medium.com/@v_maedhros/the-biel ... f8b26e546f

Post Reply