Paul Heckingbottom

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by fred » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:57 pm

Cjay wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:59 pm
Agree his body language is negative.

He always has his arms folded even on the touchline.
Monk makes the Impression of being a happy chap in comparison to Heckingbottom.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Ronan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm

fred wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:55 pm
So we might as well keep him, or do you see any proven coach appearing on the horizon? Well, who knows, but glad not all are going for Mick McCartney.
If we keep him...we are League One fodder !!! Get rid
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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by fred » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:02 pm

Ronan wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 4:59 pm
If we keep him...we are League One fodder !!! Get rid
So you believe that as good as every coach would be better than the Heck? What about the Hock? Maybe Radz could persuade him to come back with the official aim of winning the CL with Hock himself in the driving seat.
(By the way, you could be not far from the truth in regard to such evaluation of Heckingbottom, I just couldn`t say what he could deliver with a better squad...but there are signs that he would fail, and if only because of his anti-euphorical personality.)

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Ronan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:29 pm

fred wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 5:02 pm
So you believe that as good as every coach would be better than the Heck? What about the Hock? Maybe Radz could persuade him to come back with the official aim of winning the CL with Hock himself in the driving seat.
(By the way, you could be not far from the truth in regard to such evaluation of Heckingbottom, I just couldn`t say what he could deliver with a better squad...but there are signs that he would fail, and if only because of his anti-euphorical personality.)
Why did we dump TC for this fool ??
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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by faaip » Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:47 pm

Cause TC was in free fall and we were conceding 4 a game with our defence intact
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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Cliff » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:40 pm

rich_leeds64 wrote:
Thu Apr 12, 2018 7:32 am
Just seen a post on Twitter,
In LUFCs history there’s been 35 managers, based on win percentage PH is currently 34th (12%) sitting proudly above Darko Milanic (0%)

Enough said.
Is Hecky down to 11% yet???

Pot him now!

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Clive » Fri Apr 13, 2018 8:43 pm

faaip wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:47 pm
Cause TC was in free fall and we were conceding 4 a game with our defence intact
Are you Radrizzani?

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Ronan » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:32 pm

faaip wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 6:47 pm
Cause TC was in free fall and we were conceding 4 a game with our defence intact
How we have progressed since !!! :shock:
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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Clive » Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:36 pm

fred wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 12:02 pm
Clive wrote:

He says there were slim hopes of the play-offs, yet we were a point behind Middlesbrough and Millwall were 15th and 6 points behind us when he took over.
Taking into account our run of results when he came in it was just being realistic. Whoever thought we had a real chance of reaching the play-offs must have been dreaming.

He says those hopes died out quickly, but what does he consider quickly? We were still above Millwall after the Middlesbrough game which was his 5th game in charge.
When did he start on this second phase and what exactly are we supposed to be seeing that will stand us in good stead for next season?
Testing some of the youngsters. BPF has proven that he can be a good 2nd keeper. Learning what players are all about takes time, thaat`s normal I guess. Of course hopes died quickly with us playing quite terrible and seeing other teams gathering momentum.

He shouldn't even have been entertaining the idea of missing out on the play-offs until it was impossible. It sounds as though he'd already written them off when he came in.
LOL, now that is simply idiotic to say. He isn`t a fan, but a coach who is probably able to evaluate what the squad with many missing players is capable of. I said it then that our chances had gone (5 games earlier!...after losing valuable points against average teams...the red card for Saiz was the nail in the coffin for me.) and the chance of it developing differently was maybe 5% and would have been like a magical change of our abilities.

I hate all the talk of over-achieving, Grayson used to say it all the time, too. If by doing well you're over-achieving then the bar is set pretty low and you have to be in relegation trouble before you're under-achieving.
Let`s not Forget, that those two runs without defeat were also down to a large portion of luck. Things could have hardly gone better for us in those games. We were overachieving at those times, simply because we weren`t as good as the results suggest. The bad runs were down to some bad luck also to be fair: injuries, red cards, decisions in games going against us. So I guess we have overachieved and underachieved, all in all probably a fair reflection of what we`re worth.

McDermott used to talk about next season, and how he was building for the future, and how good it would be. Anyone can say that, you have to show something in the here and now.
So you want a coach to say what he doesn`t believe in? Him saying our chances were slim was spot on (maybe a bit too optimistic!), and he has thereby proven of being able to evaluate chances realistically. But I guess you are thinking of selffullfilling prophecies.

Radrizzani said he appointed him to get us in the top 6 this season, not only has he failed miserably at that, he's playing down our chances of doing it next season, too.
He was stupid to sack TC if his aim was a magic change of the squads potential by getting a new coach in...anyone would have been good enough I guess. Silly to say such things either way, as Monk used to say: `Game by game, and the rest takes care of itself.`
What a pathetic loser!
What a rediculously naiv daydreamer! (But I must admit that I can`t warm to Heckingbottom either at the present Moment. He Comes across of being so lame, almost not really interested, can`t see the fire in him...but time will tell if that is a superficial impression or not. And I believe a coach can be realistic and remain motivated at the same time.
I've been laughed at and called idiotic here.

BAN HIM!

BAN HIM!

RESPECT MY OPINION!

:evil:

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by fred » Fri Apr 13, 2018 10:34 pm

Clive wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 9:36 pm
I've been laughed at and called idiotic here.

BAN HIM!

BAN HIM!

RESPECT MY OPINION!

:evil:
O.k., mate, I apologize for calling your view idiotic. Won`t happen again.
Last edited by fred on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by radebe88 » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:06 pm

Cjay wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:57 pm
Because he talks about "passion" and "fighting for 2nd balls" .

Old fashioned manager talk, same as Mick McCarthy and the like.
True

Have you seen the pic on twitter by the way of every Leeds manager so far in order of points per game?

PH is 2nd worst in our history. Only Darko was worse and he only got 6 games

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Cjay » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:20 pm

radebe88 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:06 pm
True

Have you seen the pic on twitter by the way of every Leeds manager so far in order of points per game?

PH is 2nd worst in our history. Only Darko was worse and he only got 6 games
Yeah i saw that.


And Darko only lost 50% of his games Hecky has lost 53%.

Quick glace and looks like apart from The Hock and some guy from the 30s Heck has the highest loss percentage of any permanent Leeds manager.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by fred » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:26 pm

radebe88 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:06 pm
True

Have you seen the pic on twitter by the way of every Leeds manager so far in order of points per game?

PH is 2nd worst in our history. Only Darko was worse and he only got 6 games
Yeah, but take into account the amount of players that are missing (Ayling is a major loss, he provided a lot strengh going forward on the right side). Stats are stats and don`t necessarily give a valid view of things.
I`m not saying that Heckingbottom is the right man, but I just can`t see the point in sacking him and being replaced with some other
unproven coach trying to get lucky.
Today I thought that we tryed to play football instead of long ball tactics. When and if the fans start calling for Hecks sacking at games he probably needs to go whatever follows, but that doesn`t seem to have been the case up to now.

I`m tired of seeing coaches being sacked time after time again. (Yes, we should have kept Christinsen at least till the end of the season.)
Last edited by fred on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Clive » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:27 pm

radebe88 wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:06 pm
True

Have you seen the pic on twitter by the way of every Leeds manager so far in order of points per game?

PH is 2nd worst in our history. Only Darko was worse and he only got 6 games
Darko lost 3 and drew 3 of his 6 games.

Heckingbottom has taken 4 points from his last 6 games and lost 4 of them.

We scored 4 and conceded 8 under Darko, in Heck's last 6 we've scored 5 and conceded 10.

I knew Heckingbottom would be no good, but I thought Saiz would come back and we'd finish the season strongly, and he wouldn't be exposed until next season.

The whole situation is painfully embarrassing for Radrizzani, Heckingbottom, the club, the media who talk him up and the fans who defend him.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by fred » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:38 pm

Clive wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:27 pm
Darko lost 3 and drew 3 of his 6 games.

Heckingbottom has taken 4 points from his last 6 games and lost 4 of them.

We scored 4 and conceded 8 under Darko, in Heck's last 6 we've scored 5 and conceded 10.

I knew Heckingbottom would be no good, but I thought Saiz would come back and we'd finish the season strongly, and he wouldn't be exposed until next season.

The whole situation is painfully embarrassing for Radrizzani, Heckingbottom, the club, the media who talk him up and the fans who defend him.
I won`t call your view concluded from the mentioned stats idiotic, but simply not valid. How compare coaches based on 6 games against maybe total different opposition, with different squads available etc.?

You call fans who don`t call for Hecks sacking embarassing? Embarassingly idiotic? You dish out, but obviously can`t take it if you are called embarassing (just in slightly less political correct words maybe)?

Whatever, no need for verbal fights between Leeds fans. Just can`t join in to some of your opinions you believe to be without a doubt true. You might be right, but that could only be proven if Heckingbottom is given a reasonable chance. I admit that I don`t know what the best solution is, and find it a bit embarrassing to see people having no doubts whatsoever in regard their `opinions`.

But whatever, time will tell if Heck stays, if not noone will ever know if he would have been successfull or not. (Or more or less successfull than the next coach.)
Last edited by fred on Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Clive » Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:46 pm

fred wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:38 pm
I won`t call your view in regard to the mentioned the stats idiotic, but simply not valid. How compare coaches based on 6 games against maybe total different opposition, with different squads available etc.?

You call fans who don`t call for Hecks sacking embarassing? Embarassingly idiotic? You dish out, but obviously can`t take it you are called embarassing (just in slightly more direct words)?

Whatever, no need for verbal fights between Leeds fans. Just can`t join in to some of your opinions you believe to be without a doubt true. You might be right, but that could only be proven if Heckingbottom is given a reasonable chance.
I can dish it out and I can take it. I was just making a point.

We had a worse squad under Darko. You can't judge a manager on 6 games, but he was so there it is.

Did you support Darko, Christiansen, Rosler in the same way you're supporting Heckingbottom?

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by fred » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:03 am

Clive wrote:
Fri Apr 13, 2018 11:46 pm
I can dish it out and I can take it. I was just making a point.

We had a worse squad under Darko. You can't judge a manager on 6 games, but he was so there it is.

Did you support Darko, Christiansen, Rosler in the same way you're supporting Heckingbottom?
Had another impression in regard to you being able to take what you dish out. But no need for verbal fighting (that being your
point I assume.)

Darko was judged after 6 games. If I understand you correct, you find that was wrong? If so
why judge Heckingbottom on the short period he has been in charge (with many players missing)?
You say our squad was worse under Darko. Even if: was the league equally strong, the opponents of comparable quality?

I don`t support Heckingbotton as you suggest I do. I just say: if he`s sacked then only if his successor is better, that is: the successor
promises to be better. (Better based on the history of the new coach.)

I didn`t support Darko as he clearly had no proven record and seemed to have been appointed by Cellino without any reason (He could hardly speak English.). That said: it was unfair to sack him after that short time. (No coach can install his ideas of how to play in a couple of weeks.) But the Graz fans where jubilant that they had got rid of him.

Uwe Roesler was given to little time as all the coaches under Cellino. All hired and fired by Cellino based on little reasoned ground. This seeming to be true in regard to Heckingbottom also now. (Why was TC sacked? Because he had proven to be too bad, underachieving in the eyes of Rags/Orta, or because Radz/Orta where desperate to clutch onto any straw hoping against all odds that we could get into the play-offs?)

I thought Christansen was quite o.k. to be honest. (In hindsight always too easy to see where he decided probably wrong etc.) Him being sacked made no sense in my eyes as Hecks resent record at Barnsley couldn`t have been much worse nor was it realistic to hope a new coach could achieve a top 6 spot. (The best coach wouldn`t have succeded, that was pur deluded wishfull thinking and doesn`t look good in regard to the judgement qualities of Radz/Orta.)

I can`t warm to Heckingbotton until now. If a clearly better proven coach is available I would tend to be in favour of him being sacked as soon as possible.
If not: why sack him and replace him with another `hoping to get lucky` appointment? You certainly would agree on this latter view, that sacking Heck would only make sense if the successor would promise , based on his achievements and experience, to be more successfull, than Heckingbottom promises to be.
And should he be sacked without having a firm eye on his successor already, or should he be sacked as soon as possible regardless if any better coach is in sight and willing to take the Job?
Last edited by fred on Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Clive » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:25 am

fred wrote:
Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:03 am
Had another impression in regard to you being able to take what you dish out. But no need for verbal fighting (that being your
point I assume.)

Darko was judged after 6 games. If I understand you correct, you find that was wrong? If so
why judge Heckingbottom on the short period he has been in charge (with many players missing)?
You say our squad was worse under Darko. Even if: was the league equally strong, the opponents of comparable quality?

I don`t support Heckingbotton as you suggest I do. I just say: if he`s sacked then only if his successor is better, that is: the successor
promises to be better. (Better based on the history of the new coach.)

I didn`t support Darko as he clearly had no proven record and seemed to have been appointed by Cellino without any reason (He could hardly speak English.). That said: it was unfair to sack him after that short time. (No coach can install his ideas of how to play in a couple of weeks.) But the Graz fans where jubilant that they had got rid of him.

Uwe Roesler was given to little time as all the coaches under Cellino. As all coaches hired and fired by Cellino an appointment based on little reasoned ground, this seeming to be true in regard to Heckingbottom also. (Why was TC sacked? Because he had proven to be too bad, unerachieving etc, or because Radz/Orta where desperate to cluch onto strews hoping to get into the play-offs?)

I can`t warm to Heckingbotton until now. If a clearly better proven coach is available I would tend to be in favour of him being sacked.
If not: why sack him and replace him with another `hoping to get lucky` appointment. You certainly would agree on this latter view, or not?
I gave Christiansen a chance because he was an unknown and I liked what I saw at the beginning of the season. Because we started the season strongly, I felt he deserved the chance to finish the season strongly.

I was against Heckingbottom from the start because he was a struggling at Barnsley.

I don't want Heckingbottom sacked and replaced with someone equally as bad, and if that happens I'll be wanting them out from day one, and no doubt you'll be on my case about that.

It's ridiculous logic to suggest we keep a hopeless manager because we might get one as bad. It's like saying don't repair a puncture because you might get another one.

I've been following football for 27 years, I've seen the good the bad and the average and I know the difference between a decent manager and a hopeless loser who can blag it.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Cjay » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:30 am

Think the bottom line with Heckingbottom is the stats are damning.

There is no way to gloss over the facts.

He has taken 18 points from a possible 84,
28 games 16 defeats, 9 draws, 3 wins=18points

Do you know which club or manager have done worse during the same period?

None.

Burton have 19 points
Sunderland have 24.

And i havent worked it out but Barnsley do have a better points per game without him then they did with him this season.

28 games is a very reasonable time to judge a manager on and enough games to see some improvement.

That record is indefensible, you cant be unlucky or blame an injury crisis or crucial moments for 28 games, if you have that sort of record it is very difficult to form any other opinion then totally out of his depth.

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Re: Paul Heckingbottom

Post by Cjay » Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:41 am

Although as Fred said the next manager has to be better.

He has to have a record to look at and say "yes he has proven himself here here and here".

He has to be someone who will use the squad in the righr way, who will buy into the original blueprint from the summer, who will blood the kids and copy the tactical route of all age groups.

We all know what that is and Radz must go back to it.

For that reason he has to avoid all the usual suspects, Mick McCarthy, Alan Pardew etc.

Old fashioned English manager isn't whats needed imo.

But unproven lower league manager isnt the answer either.

Hecky is a mix of both and he was wrong.

We need a manager to unite the fanbase again, to unite the players.

A manager who we as fans can look at and say "well he did well here and he plays good football etc etc lets give him a chance".

There are decent managers out there

And i would be inclined to go foreign.

The DOF, the playing style, its setup for a continental coach.

Not a Mick McCarthy yelling "Kick it, now Kick it arder".

Made my choices known but theres all sorts
Slaven Billic
Oscar Garcia
Even Hannes Wolf, young coach well thought of in Germany, success at Dortmund as a youth coach, took Stuttgart back to the Bundesliga at 1st time of asking, a historically big club with a demanding fan base.

So they are out there, but Radz must get it right this time.

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