So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

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1964white
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So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:27 am

His faults & plus points please ?

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by hector » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:34 am

He went wrong by trying to run before he could walk.....
:tup: Bugger... got heartburn again :) ... :wink:

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by HarryofOz » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:36 am

He wasn't good enough
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by faaip » Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:45 am

He came with a system and tried to force that system. It never works straight out of the box. You tailor a system to the players you have not the other way round
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by gessa » Tue Feb 06, 2018 11:37 am

He is weak.
Anyone with a long memory knows it's a lie, double standards.
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by Cjay » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:47 pm

He was to stubborn in his tactics and selection, especially regarding certain players.


He had no luck with injuries and suspensions to be fair to him, Barnsley have had a player sent off in there last 2 games, these things happen and the manager cant do much about it.

A lot of the blame belongs at Orta's door, had he given TC an equal quality replacement for Bartley and Taylor then i do believe we would be top 2. We criticized TC for not playing more muscle against MIllwall Cardiff etc, but he didnt have it. Look at our squad, we havent got much height and muscle, especially when you take Cooper and Ayling out.

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by lufc1304 » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:52 pm

I liked his style of play, we were a joy to watch at the start of the season. But he was one dimensional, and didn't know how to change things when the wheels started coming off. Played too many players out of position just to fit the system, completely blanked/ignored others (Klitch/Dallas/Vieira) and persevered with likes of O'Kane and Ayling when they were horribly out of form. Nice guy, but nice guys win nothing. All the best managers have a bit of the barsteward in them
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by Gandalf » Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:56 pm

He shouldn't have let 64 start a "who will be the first team to beat us" thread just before the Millwall away game.
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:31 pm

Gandalf wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 12:56 pm
He shouldn't have let 64 start a "who will be the first team to beat us" thread just before the Millwall away game.
:roflmao: :rol: :rol: :lol:

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by weasel » Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:51 pm

I think he was probably 100% right in what he saw of our weaknesses last season and how we could fix them tactically. The trouble is though that just by changing tactics doesn't mean the players can do what you want/expect them to do. The examples about us being bullied spring to mind as the tactic to counter it is to keep the ball and move it around - which works on paper but when you are being clattered some players start to go missing, don't want the ball panic when it comes to them and then mis-control or mishit their pass etc. So whilst he got the tactics right he didn't have the players to be able to play that way - obviously much different here than when being at Barcelona where all the players are comfortable and they won't be at risk of being bullied as the Spanish game is largely non-contact. Pep found out last season how easy it is for tactics to not work when you have 2 or 3 square pegs in round holes and for me TC probably had more square pegs than round pegs. It is no coincidence to me that our better results and performances came against the teams trying to play football rather than be physical.

I think he realised this at some point during our first bad run and to a large degree changed the way we played - it was certainly less enjoyable football to watch although the results improved. We reverted in some ways back towards the way we played last season although weren't as successful as we no longer had Wood. Even in some of our recent bad results we had chances to go in front or to equalise but couldn't take them - that was the huge difference to last season. Go a goal up in those matches and we could have then played the way we wanted to and probably win those games - notice in the games we won how Felix Wieldwald usually didn't even have a save to make whereas int he games we lost we looked like we didn't have a clue defensively and were all over the place. This wasn't just down to bad defending but the shape of the team seemed to just disappear when we went behind. When you also throw in the ridiculous sendings off then he was doomed.

Would TC have done better with last season's team this year (i.e. with Green,Bartley, Taylor and Wood) and I think he would have done. I think we'd be in the top 6. In Bartley and Wood we had 2 players that were also more physical and would have helped to stop us being bullied (as well as Wood scoring and even Bartley chipping in with a few). With more suitable replacements I think we'd have been top6.

I think he will go on to be a decent coach. Like I have mentioned in a different thread though I think he will be better suited with technically better players in a less physical league. I don't buy into the argument that he could have made more tactical changes etc because for me he simply didn't have the players to do this - people saying Roofe is too lightweight for example but who were the options to replace him Sacko, Grot or Cibicki? People saying Alioski was playing poorly but again what were the options - the only viable one perhaps was Dallas but he has been injured for a long time. Up front and people hailing Lasogga after a decent match then slagging him off the rest of the time, likewise Roofe but the only other option up there was Ekuban but again TC can't pick an injured player. Defensively people continually slating Cooper but Cooper was probably the best option to partner PJ as what were the other 2 options Pennington and Shaugnessy - neither with any championship experience and both still learning their trade and not really being ready. FW had his bad moments but again the only option was Lonerghan, hardly an improvement. We had a team that on their day could be brilliant but too many players could only hit the heights 2 or 3 times in 10 matches.

For me if he had been given better players he would have been able to make his tactics work but without the players even the best tactics aren't going to win you many matches - something Paul Heckingbottom has been proving at Barnsley.
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:10 pm

Team selection

Playing his favourites even though they were completely out of form
Reluctant to use other squad players
Refusal to play new players in the week they were signed
Not showing respect to the FA Cup, as with Monk it totally backfired on TC

Substitutions

Subbing attackers with defenders to protect a lead when it was blatantly obvious we can't defend competently when we sit back.
Using a 19yo kid as a sub who was nowhere ready to be on the bench let alone play in the first team.

On the pitch

Only changing a formation when we went down to ten men.
Not motivating his team to play solid for the full 90 minutes, far too many 15/20 minute cameos.
Sitting back & constantly inviting pressure.
Players seemingly incapable of getting the basics of football right such as passing, shooting, movement off the ball, ball-watching & losing their marker, etc.
Lack of creativity in far too many games, several matches where we didn't test the keeper or hit the target in the whole 90 minutes.
Use a system our players seemed incapable of carrying out.
No plan B when Plan A wasn't working.

Discipline

His massive downfall, never got to grips with it, in fact our discipline became worse.

Decision-making

Showed his weak side from the off when he couldn't even make a decision on who should be our captain.

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:18 pm

weasel wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:51 pm
Would TC have done better with last season's team this year (i.e. with Green,Bartley, Taylor and Wood) and I think he would have done. I think we'd be in the top 6. In Bartley and Wood we had 2 players that were also more physical and would have helped to stop us being bullied (as well as Wood scoring and even Bartley chipping in with a few). With more suitable replacements I think we'd have been top 6
Yes I'm certain we would have done much better, especially with Saiz in our midfield as long as he didn't meddle too much with that team & make the same mistakes I highlighted in my above post

I always questioned Orta & his signings

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by faaip » Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:15 pm

There's no evidence TC would have done better than Monk last season. ...
"The Autumn Wind is a Raider,
Pillaging just for fun.
He'll knock you 'round and upside down,
And laugh when he's conquered and won."


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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by weasel » Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22 pm

1964white wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:10 pm
Team selection

Playing his favourites even though they were completely out of form although he dropped Pontus when PJ was having a bad run - you can't just drop players if you have none better to bring in
Reluctant to use other squad players - again if the other squad players (such as Grot, Sacko etc) are not good enough you have to pick what you think is your best team
Refusal to play new players in the week they were signed admittedly strange but maybe he wanted them fully up to fitness and have a few training sessions first maybe also giving the player about to be replaced, by the new signing, a last chance to impress

Not showing respect to the FA Cup, as with Monk it totally backfired on TC most managers don't these days and the team selected was stronger than the one Monk selected the previous year - our back up players were after all good enough to despatch Burnley from the Carabou Cup

Substitutions

Subbing attackers with defenders to protect a lead when it was blatantly obvious we can't defend competently when we sit back.
Using a 19yo kid as a sub who was nowhere ready to be on the bench let alone play in the first team. it worked every time though until the Millwall game and don't forget we'd played for a long time with 10 men and some players were dead on their feet. Again using Grot as a substitute was because there were no other options and was probably reluctant to give him more time but at the same time was hoping that he might just do something and then get his confidence up and become a first team player - a bit like Cibicki.

On the pitch

Only changing a formation when we went down to ten men. - You can't just change formation every few minutes and expect the team to suddenly all click the key is to be able to bed a formation in so the players are comfortable - easier to change it v Millwall and Cardiff because in both matches there was little to lose in the second half by changing tactics
Not motivating his team to play solid for the full 90 minutes, far too many 15/20 minute cameos. - how many teams play brilliantly for 90 minutes? The key is to be able to win the match in the period when you play really well
Sitting back & constantly inviting pressure.- we were playing counter attacking football it worked brilliantly v Forest and Sunderland where they had the possession but we were able to create all the decent chances
Players seemingly incapable of getting the basics of football right such as passing, shooting, movement off the ball, ball-watching & losing their marker, etc. - how on earth is this a criticism of TC? It shows how he didn't have good enough players.
Lack of creativity in far too many games, several matches where we didn't test the keeper or hit the target in the whole 90 minutes. - Also several matches where Felix didn't have a shot to save
Use a system our players seemed incapable of carrying out. - again it shows the lack of quality in the players rather than the manager
No plan B when Plan A wasn't working. - To some degree I agree but just because you change tactics midway through a match when the opposition is on top doesn't mean they will stop playing well and allow you to control the match. I think there were a few matches where we created chances when behind but failed to take them (even against Cardiff at 0-1 we hit the woodwork twice and Dallas hit a tame shot when clean through - against Sheff Wed similar when Saiz missed a couple at 0-2)

Discipline

His massive downfall, never got to grips with it, in fact our discipline became worse. - again the players were stupid how can you blame the coach for a player spitting or headbutting or jumping into tackles that don't need to be made

Decision-making

Showed his weak side from the off when he couldn't even make a decision on who should be our captain. don't really see anything overly wrong with that as the captain needs to have the respect of his players and clearly, rightly or wrongly, Cooper has this.
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by Norm » Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:45 am

He decided to read your posts Leon and believe your criticisms.

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:03 am

weasel wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:22 pm
You are too understanding & over-estimating Christiansen's mangerial skills, admittedly TC was on a learning curve but he made far too many errors & never seem to learn from his mistakes.

We were in another rut & a real mess, to be honest it's was looking unlikely we'd pull out of the current doldrums in the near future. Our board who have hoodwinked our fanbase don't come out of this fiasco too clever, had my reservations about Radz & Orta more or less from the start.

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Wed Feb 07, 2018 12:21 pm

faaip wrote:
Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:15 pm
There's no evidence TC would have done better than Monk last season. ...
No there isn't Faaip but over the season I think we'd have been slightly higher than mid-table (maybe lower) where we were destined to finish under TC with this squad

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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by weasel » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:00 pm

1964white wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:03 am
You are too understanding & over-estimating Christiansen's mangerial skills, admittedly TC was on a learning curve but he made far too many errors & never seem to learn from his mistakes.

We were in another rut & a real mess, to be honest it's was looking unlikely we'd pull out of the current doldrums in the near future. Our board who have hoodwinked our fanbase don't come out of this fiasco too clever, had my reservations about Radz & Orta more or less from the start.
I think my understanding comes from having managed a Sunday League sides for several years and whilst it is obviously not to the same level it does give you a lot of experience and knowledge of the situations TC found himself in. For example I might not have liked/rated a player but would have to play him as the other options were worse. I might have a good player playing poorly but I'd keep playing him in the hope that the confidence he'd get from my support would help him recover his form and go back to being a good player. Also know that footballers aren't robots and we could go from playing brilliantly in a midweek game (we demolished the league leaders 5-0) to then playing awful on Sunday and looking a completely different team. Also how important confidence can be - we once started the season with an 8-1 win (against a decent team) then lost 13 in a row, then won 7 in a row and then drew our final match. During the losing run we just seemed to have everything go against us, decisions, injuries, couldn't finish, conceding soft goals etc. Bizarrely though during the 13 match losing run in the league we won a cup match against the team top of the league above us despite us having 3 or 4 of our better players away (including us having a fairly immobile defender in net).

As a manager you can try all sorts to get out of a rut and sometimes it just makes things worse. Changing formation is great on paper but then when you try it the players can end up playing and look like they have never played football before in their lives. Likewise the temptation is to make changes but your 'back-up' players haven't suddenly got any better and usually just show why you weren't selecting them to start previously. You will also get some players, flat track bullies is the expression, who are absolutely great v weak opposition but go hiding in the tough matches or 'glass' players that will always seem to get injured or players who will always be moaning that they have picked up this knock or that knock but aren't really injured and will still be better than their replacements - they seem almost low on confidence and don't really want to be taken off but almost told how important they are. You have egos that you have to manage, there will always be players who don't like other players and so on

Without being an actual manager (as opposed to a computer manager) I don't think people realise how difficult the job is and that picking tactics and naming the starting XI are just a tiny fraction of what is actually going on.
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Re: So where did Christiansen go wrong ?

Post by 1964white » Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:14 pm

weasel wrote:
Wed Feb 07, 2018 1:00 pm
I think my understanding comes from having managed a Sunday League sides for several years and whilst it is obviously not to the same level it does give you a lot of experience and knowledge of the situations TC found himself in. For example I might not have liked/rated a player but would have to play him as the other options were worse. I might have a good player playing poorly but I'd keep playing him in the hope that the confidence he'd get from my support would help him recover his form and go back to being a good player. Also know that footballers aren't robots and we could go from playing brilliantly in a midweek game (we demolished the league leaders 5-0) to then playing awful on Sunday and looking a completely different team. Also how important confidence can be - we once started the season with an 8-1 win (against a decent team) then lost 13 in a row, then won 7 in a row and then drew our final match. During the losing run we just seemed to have everything go against us, decisions, injuries, couldn't finish, conceding soft goals etc. Bizarrely though during the 13 match losing run in the league we won a cup match against the team top of the league above us despite us having 3 or 4 of our better players away (including us having a fairly immobile defender in net).

As a manager you can try all sorts to get out of a rut and sometimes it just makes things worse. Changing formation is great on paper but then when you try it the players can end up playing and look like they have never played football before in their lives. Likewise the temptation is to make changes but your 'back-up' players haven't suddenly got any better and usually just show why you weren't selecting them to start previously. You will also get some players, flat track bullies is the expression, who are absolutely great v weak opposition but go hiding in the tough matches or 'glass' players that will always seem to get injured or players who will always be moaning that they have picked up this knock or that knock but aren't really injured and will still be better than their replacements - they seem almost low on confidence and don't really want to be taken off but almost told how important they are. You have egos that you have to manage, there will always be players who don't like other players and so on

Without being an actual manager (as opposed to a computer manager) I don't think people realise how difficult the job is and that picking tactics and naming the starting XI are just a tiny fraction of what is actually going on.
Managing in any walk of life is a difficult job as you are dealing with people who all have different personalities & views, some are naturally gifted, efficient & hard-working, others need to be cajoled with guidance, instruction & advice.

Managing professional footballers with their egos & are of course earning more than their managers generally is much more difficult I'd imagine !

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