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Re: BATES FM

Post by Twiggster »

Marko - How long have you been reading this forum? You should know how we usually agree to disagree on certain subjects.
I Appreciate a lot of your sentiments you have posted (long winded as they have been! :wink: ), but your "Bull in a china shop" approach in the past few days you have been with us, has left a lot of us rather shocked.
One thing you should remember - WR is a dedicated Leeds fan, as are many of us "oldies" on here. We've been there for our club a few thousand times over the past few decades. WR may post thoughts we don't agree with, but his thoughts are valid as a Leeds fan and open to friendly debate.
To diss (as you have) the older generation of fans, is to diss the history of the club we follow. So please respect ALL posters on here, regardless of age, creed, religion or anything. Not necessary.
We try to keep this board friendly and I'd appreciate it if the insults would stop please.
Thank you.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

Twiggster wrote:Marko - How long have you been reading this forum? You should know how we usually agree to disagree on certain subjects.
I Appreciate a lot of your sentiments you have posted (long winded as they have been! :wink: ), but your "Bull in a china shop" approach in the past few days you have been with us, has left a lot of us rather shocked.
One thing you should remember - WR is a dedicated Leeds fan, as are many of us "oldies" on here. We've been there for our club a few hundred times over the past few decades. He may post thoughts we don't agree with, but his thoughts are valid as a Leeds fan.
To diss (as you have) the older generation of fans, is to diss the history of the club we follow. So please respect ALL posters on here, regardless of age, creed, religion or anything. Not necessary.
We try to keep this board friendly and I'd appreciate it if the insults would stop please.
Thank you.
I was merely saying it's a two way street. He dissed the younger generation, I was merely responding. I don't feel I need to apologise for saying it how it is. I came on here to make my arguments in a new environment hoping the people on here would be more objective and willing to consider the reality of our situation better than on other forums, rather than looking on the surface and forgetting the context. I've been sorely mistaken, there are still a few who will condescend and categorise anyone calling for bates out as just "shallow" and "impatient".

I do not mind opposing opinions, but in a situation like this where nothing seems to be going in the right direction and the only people still on board with the direction of the club refuse to acknowledge the reality of the reasons they claim to support it for... that is just frustrating.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by Silky »

markolufc wrote:
Better question:

Does our club make a profit only because the losses made by satellite companies are made up by cutting back on players?

You've completely missed the point, AGAIN. The things all our money is getting spent on, they are MAKING LOSSES, therefore SUCKING MONEY OUT that COULD BE SPENT ON PLAYERS, rather than what they are supposed to do, which is make profit and increase the money available.

Being in profit is meaningless unless it is used correctly, it's not. Think about the context and please, please, stop IGNORING what I've said.
I haven't ignored the point, mate..

The club is profitable [which you admit to] so your point about 'fearing for the club' is, as far as I'm concerned, a moot point.

Whether the East Stand makes a sh!tload or a little bit, it's still part of the club and will, in the long term, pay itself off..... It also means that when they knock down the older stands to redevelop them, the club can still function because the executive boxes and banqueting suites are currently in the south and west stands, right?

Have i made that up?

[people say why invest when we don't own it....... but... EXACTLY.... we/ KB obviously do own it]

... the second part of my question..... would Warnock be here if there wasn't money to spend? [which you didn't attempt to answer] is probably the more interesting part....... IMO, no way would be here.... he has no connection to the club whatsoever and if there wasn't money to spend, he'd be off somewhere else to give himself a better chance at that 8th promotion..

If you'd been on here a bit longer, Marko... you'd know that around the time that we sold Howson/ sacked Simon/ hired Warnock i was the least friendliest person on this board because i was so disgusted with Ken Bates.... your long winded posts now remind me of my own..... i got so angry at the situation we were in i ended up getting banned for a week.

But very recently a good friend that is very close to the club itself- a friend who was always pro-Grayson, anti-Bates [and to a certain level he still is] overheard a conversation between Eddie Gray and Dom Matteo where they discussed Simon's transfer kitty during his tenure and what they said has forced me to re-assess..... the simple fact is, there has always been money for Simon to spend, he was just too scared to spend it....

Simon's people skills is something that has been discussed at length on here... The fact that Warnock has already convinced Jason Pearce to come here over going to Norwich is a good indicator that Warnock will be better at getting people in.

Anyway..... Ken Bates is a silly old fart and i wish he wasn't here and my biggest problem with him is that there is no transparency in anything that he does... if he had come out at the beginning of the season gone and explained that we were investing in club infrastructure and the football side would have to take a back step, i/we, as fans, probably would have accepted that...... of course, Snodgrass, Howson, Gradel, McCormack definitely would NOT have accepted that, and they would have requested transfers immediately...

Not going to ER and creating bad vibes when you DO is not helping anyone or anything......

I don't necessarily disagree with the stuff you've said marko, but you also need to consider the other side... Ask yourself, if Ken Bates had still done all the 'dodgy' things he's done during his time at Leeds, but he invested in the squad too and we had been promoted... would you have cared? If he wasted 1.5mill on legal fees, but spent 4mill on the team.... would you have minded?

All comes down to perceived lack of success, which is created by Bates not being honest with us...... its nothing to do with pilfering money or making bad investments.
Last edited by Silky on Mon May 14, 2012 12:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

It's not making a ****load or a little bit, odds are it's losing money, on the basis of the pavilion which has been built for similar purposes for the same business. It's going to take probably 20-30 years to pay off the cost of it (assuming it actually makes a profit - probably not), at a cost of £7 million, that's between £260000 and £350000 a year. What help is that going to be? in 20 years time? For the cost of £7 million of money we don't have, £350 000 a year is not even worth talking about.

You've completely ignored the fact that it's in a business that is suffering, is likely to continue suffering for the foreseeable future, and may not ever come out of it. It's a struggling industry, a startup business in a struggling industry is going to struggle even more, and who's paying for it? The club. These plans to bring in more revenue for the club to spend on players, it's going the other way.

Whereas I have actually mentioned that the business these developments are expanding into is struggling and not likely to provide profits, and if it does they will be negligible, you have turned around and said "it'll pay itself off eventually". Entirely moot. Unless it's going to make substantial profits within a reasonable time frame, then it's pointless. you haven't provided any argument to suggest they are actually going to make any money - they aren't. There's no thought gone into them at all. These plans were drawn up around... 2008, 2009? During a recession. When the industries were suffering. 4 years later those industries are still suffering, but guess what? Still ploughing ahead. Lack of flexibility. Countless people have evaluated the potential profit margin of these ventures and concluded that it doesn't look good.

Developments might be a good idea, THESE developments are NOT a good idea. I've already said the casino is a good idea, because that actually has a reasonable projection for profit. Conferencing facilities don't have a projection for profit worth bothering with, and guess what? The pavilion is proving me right. Operating loss of however much it was (somewhere around £400 000), even if you assume that's down to the £1.5 million it cost to build it, that's without any staff. Without. Any. Staff. How many times can I repeat this point? These developments you are so well behind, they are losing money. Without staff. I don't want to imagine how much they are losing WITH staff.

How much is Yorkshire Radio bringing in? With the appalling radio coverage, nothing. Nobody has a DAB radio. You can't get Minster FM hardly anywhere in Yorkshire. The expense of Yorkshire Radio has one purpose, to get more LUTV subscribers for matchday commentary. Force people into having to pay for radio coverage. Brilliant. That's fantastic is that. All that money going into Yorkshire Radio, that will be brilliant in the future! When still, nobody has a DAB radio.

Also, what are you smoking? SERIOUSLY? Oh no, the club can't function without corporate hospitality! Forget the fans, the corporates are where all the money comes in! Give me a break, man alive you can't make this stuff up can you.

You justify developing a ground we don't own because bates secretly owns it... Either we don't own it and it's bad, because it's adding value to somebody elses property and not really increasing our assets, or ken bates owns it, and guess what? It's STILL BAD! because it's increasing the value of ken bates property, which he's charging us £1.8 million a season for the privilege of using. He's held Chelsea to ransom over club related assets countless times. This. Is. Not. Good. For. The. Club.

"oh a friend of a friend said he overheard a conversation and he said Grayson's warchest was massive" - give me a break.

"Warnock wouldn't come here if there wasn't money to spend" - "we'll try to provide the funds you're asking for" and "we have the money you're asking for" are two different sentences. The first comes with one key quality, plausible deniability.

If not for any other reason, the transparency itself should alert you that what I'm saying may not be far off. You won't even CONSIDER that, you just assume based on nothing that everything he is doing is good for the club, but then contradict yourself by saying that you dislike bates tendency to hide everything. People don't hide things if they have nothing to hide. That is fact. He is a known liar, there's countless, unquestionable evidence that he'll twist literally anything to shift blame from himself, he'll lie, lie, lie at every opportunity if the alternative is admitting he's wrong.

Example: around April, paraphrasing "We've just broke 10000 season ticket sales, so we're at the same point as last season, proving all the doubters wrong". March 2011 he said "we've sold 11200 season tickets to date". He's not twisted the facts, he's just changed them and lied to people he thinks are too stupid to look it up.

His aversion to the Internet indicates he's not aware how easy it is to get hold of information, keep records and hold people accountable.

Saying you've not disagreed has done alot to salvage some respect, and in saying that I feel I should give you an apology. I am insulting at the worst of times. I have considered the other side, repeatedly. Trust me, I have. But every time I just come to the same conclusion. Money is getting spent going down dead end paths, it's all distractions from the main issues, from the main business. There appears to have been no thought go into it at all. Is it really that unbelievable that bates is a bad businessman that got lucky through a freak set of circumstances? His impatience, ignorance, unwillingness to admit fault and constant blame shifting - these are all signs of people who will not adapt if things go wrong - instead insisting it will eventually work out. Something he does. All the time.

I have looked at this from a business perspective. Ground developments - good, in the right context at the right time, with the right developments for the right reasons. Our ground developments? None of those. Wrong context, wrong time, wrong developments and wrong reasons.

In the league we are in, with the turnover we bring in, we should never feel we are out of our depth in the Championship. The clubs down there just don't have the money, even with parachute payments and sugar daddies. This is why they are in such poor financial states. They overspend to keep up with clubs that have more money than them, like Leeds for an example. In the Premier League, we'd need some sort of outside investment or additional non-matchday revenue to stand a chance of pushing in to the top table. But Leeds United is a MASSIVE club. We don't have a divine right to be in the Premier League, but that does not mean that we're not a big fish in a little pond, at least financially.

The developments can wait until we have the money to carry them out without cutting into the team budget, when we are in the Premier League. Look at Newcastle, they are where they are because as soon as they got back into the Premier League, they had more than enough financial clout to survive without breaking a sweat. They are a similar size to us, fanbase wise and honours wise (they may have won slightly less or slightly more - I forget), they will be making similar money, aruond £80 mill a season. Our £32.7 million + £50 million TV revenue - £82.7 million. With more fans coming in, that gets closer to £90 mill. Then you can set money aside to buy the ground and training facilities back, and once that is done, set money aside to develop them to bring in more money. Without breaking the bank, without cutting so much into the team budget that we can't afford to healthily survive. But they'd have to be the RIGHT developments. None of this obsession with conferencing facilities. That can wait until we've got something that will make a difference. The casino is brilliant, as it would be easier to get to than Leeds' current casinos, via the M621 and the Ring Road, as well being a unique attraction in a super casino. A struggling conference centre does not instill confidence in "additional revenue streams".
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

If, in the hypothetical situation, we were succeeding and he was still pissing money against a wall, if I didn't question it, I would be very disappointed in myself. It's human nature to not question it, it does not mean it should not be questioned. It does not mean it is not a bad sign for the club. It does not mean it is not the act of a man who cares very little for the prolonged financial security of the club, vs saving his own sorry hide from legal proceedings that he asked for.

Regardless of how much we'd spent on players, £1.5 million in frivolous law suits is £1.5 million that could have been spent on players. In an industry where as long as you're not overspending and select who you bring in carefully, you're not wasting money. The club has to give itself the maximum chance of success to maximise the drive of the players and the fans - this comes down to psychology. If the "club" would rather defend a sad old man on a personal vendetta than spend improving a threadbare squad, why should the fans or players care? Whether or not this is how people think conciously, I guarantee it's how they think subconciously. The apathy and discontent is how this subconcious message comes out as a concious action.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

might as well bring it up just as an added point:

preference shares. 32 of them. Worth £4 million when activated.

The last time a business bates was involved in did this, it was to avoid paying creditors when going into administration, instead pocketing the money for himself.

This sets of loud alarm bells. Very, very loud alarm bells. It's possible to cook the books to make things look better than they are, and the books look cooked according to various accountants who have looked them over, compiled a list of questions and sent them off to an accountancy firm to get them confirmed.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by Silky »

That's all very interesting.

I hope you didn't waste too much energy writing it because at the end of the day, your opinion doesn't mean any more than anyone else's on the forum and you're never going to change anyones mind on something...

In my opinion the ground needs fixing. By developing the East stand first it makes it easier to develop the other 3 because we can keep up the corporate hospitality and open the upper tier to keep match-day attendances up.

In my mind that is pretty straight forward.

All clubs wish their grounds were bigger/ newer.... Man City moved, Arsenal moved, Chelsea, West Ham and Liverpool WANT to move.... All these smaller clubs like Brighton/ Cardiff/ Swansea/ even Colchester! look at the impact that a new, modern, BIGGER ground had on their fortunes... ?

Ken Bates does lie... But I'm pretty sure that most 99% of football chairman do. Oil tycoons, dodgy Thai businessman, rich Americans, Arab Sheikhs...

I know that what my buddy said is 100% fact. But i can understand why you would choose to question it. You don't know me or him.

I dont like Bates, he's a lier and there are a number of things he's done over the last 12 months that have bothered me to no end..... failing to re-negotiate Bradley Johnson's contract, selling Howson and not re-investing the money... waiting till the transfer window was close before sacking Simon.... why he waited a month before appointing Warnock...

But at the end of the day... i believe that for some people, like yourself, their hatred of Ken Bates has started to outweigh their love for the club.... You might not recognise it in yourself, but i can tell you right now, having read all your posts over the last week, that's exactly how it comes off.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by 1964white »

weasel wrote:
Didn't want to sign a new contract either.....

The only way he'd have stayed at Leeds would have been if we'd have won promotion and then given him premiership wages. Other than that he'd have walked out on a bosman.
I don't know where you've got this opinion from Weasel, maybe from within yourself !

I have concrete evidence reasons why Jonny didn't want to leave Leeds United
Last edited by 1964white on Mon May 14, 2012 8:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by 1964white »

Twiggster wrote:
Prezakkerly. No more allegiance to our club than any player in the past 20 years. Boyhood club my arse...The club that paid a LOT of money to bring the twat thru our academy, to see him eff off for prem money at any price (Norwich, FFS? :roflmao: ), rather than stay and try and contribute to our club regaining some success, you mean?

Oh, I don't blame him for running away when the going got tough. Smith was his precedent. Another "I'm Leeds, me" spouter...another RAT deserting a sinking ship for Premiership "glory" . :roflmao: Screw them both - TWICE :evil:
You are so wrong Twiggs !
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Re: BATES FM

Post by 1964white »

markolufc wrote:


Yes, Howson wanted to play in the Premier League. But I'd bet my left bollock he'd have signed for another year if he genuinely thought the club were going to throw everything they've got (note - everything they've got, not everything they haven't got - before you accuse me of wanting a Ridsdale-esque spunking money we don't have strategy) at getting to the Premier League. Instead, every season, when the team appears to be taking shape and in need of a few finishing touches to become a competitor, he's seen half the team sold and the club left starting from square one.

Compare Leeds to the really successful teams in the Championship the last couple of seasons - Norwich, Southampton, Reading - have any of them overspent? No. Not even close. Have any of them sold half their team every season? NO. They have built strong, robust teams over several seasons. Leeds do not do this. This is the problem. Howson would have stayed hd this been the situation. He'd rather play in the Premier League with Leeds in 2 seasons time than with Norwich now, but he doesn't think Leeds will be there in 2 seasons time, and I agree with him with the current strategy.
Nail on the head :tup:
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Re: BATES FM

Post by Gurj »

Marko, welcome to the MOT forum.....whilst you may have upset the establishment with the manner of your posts I actually believe you have spoken an awful lot of sense on here and its actually good to see how a newbie can see some of the nonsense that is spouted by one or two certain members. I find it laughable now that one particular member is now crying foul when the vast majority of he's own posts are so disparaging towards others' views - talk about pot , kettle, black :lol:
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Re: BATES FM

Post by Martyn »

To sum up:

Why is anybody surprised at what Bates continues to do? Look back over the last 50 years of his career if you want evidence.

Read Tom Bower's book Broken Dreams - or, if you prefer, read the Bates chapter here: The Chairman

The man is an asset-stripper. Always has been.

Leeds is his latest asset. When he's taken all he can from us, whether via paying rent to himself or other nefarious means, he will be gone, no doubt by way of a method such as liquidation that triggers the £4Million payout to his preference shares.

Players get in the way of all this - he doesn't intend to spend any money on assets that might get injured.

Stuf the team, it doesn't figure in his plans. Never has, never will.
Bates, GFH, Cellino: Same s**t, different arseholes.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by white.riot »

Gurj wrote:Marko, welcome to the MOT forum.....whilst you may have upset the establishment with the manner of your posts I actually believe you have spoken an awful lot of sense on here and its actually good to see how a newbie can see some of the nonsense that is spouted by one or two certain members. I find it laughable now that one particular member is now crying foul when the vast majority of he's own posts are so disparaging towards others' views - talk about pot , kettle, black :lol:
For the record, if you mean me - you generally do - I'm not crying foul. I don't give a hoot what marko or anyone else says about Bates or me on a website. I think encouraging supporters to stay away from games is devisive, unhelpful and plain wrong. It's not what fans do. I've never been a part of the establishment on here or anywhere else for that matter so that bit is presumably aimed elsewhere.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by white.riot »

1964white wrote:
Nail on the head :tup:

Unfortunately a screw driver was required. What exactly is the financial position at Reading [new ground/sugar daddy again], Saints [new ground/two huge players sales - bigger than Delph I'll wager] and Norwich [family club, local catchment, sensible expectations, fans who attend games etc] and how exactly does it compare with LUFC - oversized ground, international fan base, many who don't attend games and now positively discourage fans from attending games, outstanding payments from Admin etc. Ridiculous comparisons are just that, ridiculous. Let's see the figures and let's get behind the books at all 3 clubs before we make comparisons. No club on the list has been as badly managed as LUFC since Ridsdale - we are still recovering. Bates is doing his best. No one has a real alternative, other than staying away from games it now seems. When staying away from games is the marko of a real fan I despair. I'll just turn up regardless I think.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by leeds&leeds&leeds »

Guildford White wrote:To sum up:

Why is anybody surprised at what Bates continues to do? Look back over the last 50 years of his career if you want evidence.

Read Tom Bower's book Broken Dreams - or, if you prefer, read the Bates chapter here: The Chairman

The man is an asset-stripper. Always has been.

Leeds is his latest asset. When he's taken all he can from us, whether via paying rent to himself or other nefarious means, he will be gone, no doubt by way of a method such as liquidation that triggers the £4Million payout to his preference shares.

Players get in the way of all this - he doesn't intend to spend any money on assets that might get injured.

Stuf the team, it doesn't figure in his plans. Never has, never will.
Thanks for posting that link, an interesting read.

Also interesting to see Bates involvement with the original bsb sky/Premiership deal with Murdoch, that worked out well for football didn't it?
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Re: BATES FM

Post by 1964white »

leeds&leeds&leeds wrote:
Thanks for posting that link, an interesting read.

Also interesting to see Bates involvement with the original bsb sky/Premiership deal with Murdoch, that worked out well for football didn't it?
Bates & Murdoch go hand in hand mate

Powerful, greedy, shady old men who have made their lavish lifestyle through their grubby business practices over the years !
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

Silky wrote:That's all very interesting.

I hope you didn't waste too much energy writing it because at the end of the day, your opinion doesn't mean any more than anyone else's on the forum and you're never going to change anyones mind on something...

In my opinion the ground needs fixing. By developing the East stand first it makes it easier to develop the other 3 because we can keep up the corporate hospitality and open the upper tier to keep match-day attendances up.

In my mind that is pretty straight forward.

All clubs wish their grounds were bigger/ newer.... Man City moved, Arsenal moved, Chelsea, West Ham and Liverpool WANT to move.... All these smaller clubs like Brighton/ Cardiff/ Swansea/ even Colchester! look at the impact that a new, modern, BIGGER ground had on their fortunes... ?

Ken Bates does lie... But I'm pretty sure that most 99% of football chairman do. Oil tycoons, dodgy Thai businessman, rich Americans, Arab Sheikhs...

I know that what my buddy said is 100% fact. But i can understand why you would choose to question it. You don't know me or him.

I dont like Bates, he's a lier and there are a number of things he's done over the last 12 months that have bothered me to no end..... failing to re-negotiate Bradley Johnson's contract, selling Howson and not re-investing the money... waiting till the transfer window was close before sacking Simon.... why he waited a month before appointing Warnock...

But at the end of the day... i believe that for some people, like yourself, their hatred of Ken Bates has started to outweigh their love for the club.... You might not recognise it in yourself, but i can tell you right now, having read all your posts over the last week, that's exactly how it comes off.
Man City needed it, aiming for the top of the Premier League with a realistic shot of getting there, projections of attendance increase. Chelsea have a waiting list for season tickets. Liverpool will be the same. Arsenal had a massive waiting list for season tickets and the majority of the stadium is season tickets.

I'm still calling bollocks on implying that we need corporate hospitality to survive. It's clear corporate hospitality is bringing sweet FA into the club, why would it matter if we shut it down while redeveloping the West Stand? What about all the executive boxes already in the East Stand before it was redeveloped? It didn't need redeveloping. Just seems a way of pretending nothing is wrong with the strategy. The whole "I don't like bates but..." implying, again, that this is about whether or not I like him. I don't like him because he's charging down dead end avenues without a thought or care in the world and it's showing, more and more. Putting more emphasis on looking after corporates who bring relatively nothing into the club, and are likely to continue bringing nothing into the club unless bates stops scaring off investors with his "charm".

Those smaller clubs all had investment to sort their grounds out, they aren't using it as an excuse to stifle footballing progress, and they are all forward thinking clubs. Also, Cardiff are in debt, and I'd bet the left bollock I won in the previous bet that it's a lot down to spending millions on a new stadium. The difference is, they actually needed it.

Deal with it when it's a problem, it's not at the moment. Especially not the East Stand. But hey, as long as it looks nice, doesn't matter that it's a financial black hole and has been done for entirely the wrong reasons.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

1964white wrote:
Bates & Murdoch go hand in hand mate

Powerful, greedy, shady old men who have made their lavish lifestyle through their grubby business practices over the years !
The difference between the two, the key difference, is all the shady practices of Murdoch benefited his business, not just himself. Which is why he's a damn sight richer, and why Fox has so much control. It's wrong for different reasons, but at least he was capable of seeing that his best interests and his businesses best interests went hand in hand.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by weasel »

1964white wrote:
I don't know where you've got this opinion from Weasel, maybe from within yourself !

I have concrete evidence reasons why Jonny didn't want to leave Leeds United
The only concrete evidence would have been if he'd have signed a contract (even one with a prem release clause if we didn't get promoted). If he had wanted to stay he'd have stayed - no one forced him to sign for Norwich.
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Re: BATES FM

Post by markolufc »

weasel wrote:
The only concrete evidence would have been if he'd have signed a contract (even one with a prem release clause if we didn't get promoted). If he had wanted to stay he'd have stayed - no one forced him to sign for Norwich.
The feeling of being unwanted is enough to drive a player out, usually. Plus strong arming him with crap like "if you leave now we get a fee for you, leave in the summer we get nothing, you wouldn't do that to the club would you?".

I do not buy into this "there's no loyalty anymore" rubbish. No matter how much money is involved, it means nothing compared to emotional attachments.
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